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    Budō lineage tree project: community-based, interactive explorer of budō

    Ambatus
    Ambatus


    Posts : 4
    Join date : 2019-07-16

    Budō lineage tree project: community-based, interactive explorer of budō  Empty Budō lineage tree project: community-based, interactive explorer of budō

    Post by Ambatus Mon May 15, 2023 1:52 am

    Greetings,

    I've started a project that I think could be interesting to some of those in this forum: a Budō "lineage" tree of students/teachers:

    Budō lineage tree project: community-based, interactive explorer of budō  Screen11

    Website: https://budotree.judoc.org/

    This started after many years of thinking about how the knowledge we have, even in such outwardly popular things like Judo, is partial, atomised, often based on circular referencing of dubious sources, and how much knowledge exists in this forum and other places where those with interest in these topics participate. The goal is to capture some of that knowledge in a way that is open, traceable, preserved authorship, and allows scrutiny.

    This is still an early version, but it has reached a point where I think that it can already benefit others and especially benefit from the participation of anyone that is interested in it and has the time to do it.

    More information on the project is available in the project repository, which also explains how changes, additions, and corrections, can be made. What exists currently is just an initial approach, which is often based on the "easiest" sources and requires further analysis... but I tried to hit a middle-ground here since I also wanted to have something visually engaging to attract interest.

    I started this with a very clear Judo focus: it was actually called "Jūdō Lineage Tree". I've changed it because it became very clear that the approach would lead to a web of influences that was more general, and there was no valid reason to keep it limited to Judo (especially since from a technical standpoint there is no limit that would justify it).

    I would highly welcome any comments, feedback, and obviously any contributions to the project. This forum is one of the places that - even considering that the glory days of web forums are past us - consistently appears in any search around many of the persons in the database, and several sources currently listed there were first mentioned here (at least, they were where I've found them).
    sodo
    sodo


    Posts : 188
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

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    Post by sodo Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:51 pm

    WHY?

    Are you by any chance from America?

    I have been doing judo since 1964. I have trained with many judokas from various countries, I have learned something from almost all of them, that is why I do not consider that such a thing as lineage even exists in judo, for it is a very American concept of identifying your present through a past that is long gone and never actually touches you.

    atb

    Sodo


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    Ambatus
    Ambatus


    Posts : 4
    Join date : 2019-07-16

    Budō lineage tree project: community-based, interactive explorer of budō  Empty Re: Budō lineage tree project: community-based, interactive explorer of budō

    Post by Ambatus Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:43 am

    Thank you for your comment.

    sodo wrote:WHY?

    Are you by any chance from America?

    I have been doing judo since 1964. I have trained with many judokas from various countries, I have learned something from almost all of them, that is why I do not consider that such a thing as lineage even exists in judo, for it is a very American concept of identifying your present through a past that is long gone and never actually touches you.

    atb

    Sodo

    I'm not from America, and my reason is unrelated to BJJ-derived lineage practices, or projecting one's roots to a past to which no real connection exists (which is what I assume you're implying by the US reference, to the extent that both these traits are known to me, one in martial arts, the other in genealogy). It's actually only very indirectly related to individual lineage, in the sense of legitimacy. It's not a "rank validator", and doesn't specifically target Judo (apart from being the starting point).

    As to answer the first question, the "why", I (at least try to) address that on the project page, but it fills in something which I felt was missing: a database that would show the different connections between people, identifying the sources and allowing the exploration of the rich network of influences that ultimately influenced the development of martial arts, and that could be updated by anyone in the community that wants to improve it, possibly bringing experts and/or enthusiasts in a specific area together.

    As such, it's orthogonal to the notion of "quality" or "pureness", and you yourself have put it well: we learn from many, and what we teach many others is often influenced by those experiences. And that's what this project tries to map, structure, and present.

    To me, being able to quickly see that e.g. both Kano and Ueshiba practised  Yagyū Shingan-ryū at a certain point in time, is interesting, as is seeing how the transition from kenjutsu to kendo occurred, and how many of the key players had both koryū and gendai presence. I also think it's useful to watch how Judo and other disciplines have spread out of Japan, what was the timeline of teachers, what else did they bring with them, etc. It's also useful (again, to me) to quickly check what is the source of a specific piece of information, so that I can e.g. validate that Ueshiba learned Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū for a while, even if there's a book where Kito-ryu is mentioned.

    Obviously, this is not something I expect everyone to be interested in, but as it grows (and it has already grown since my first post here) I hope that it becomes useful as a reference for visualising disciplines, persons, and follow-up with the identified sources.

    A final remark to your comment on "identifying your present through a past that is long gone and never actually touches you": I understand the objection, but there's also the opposite, which is practising something that has layers and layers of history, context, influences, cultural norms as if none of that existed. I am reminded of the extremely fortunate expression of E. R. Dodds, applied to religious traditions: we receive an "inherited conglomerate", something that is composed of many different layers compressed by the weight of history. Being able to identify some of those layers is very different from either revering the conglomerate as-is, or discard it completely.


    Last edited by Ambatus on Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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