Illegal submissions

techman wrote:

judo66 wrote:Kimura= legal (in the back as well if there is a wrist torsion making sure the effect is on the elbow).
Omopolata= of course it is legal
D'Arce or Brabo choke= Legal indeed
Monopolata (like an omopolata but they're on their back= Yep.

Is this topic in the right section? I thought this section was a judo section not MMA.The terminology used is not judo terminology and I for one find it annoying to have judo techniques called by other names. Now I'm sure someone will come on and tell me that the techniques were around long before judo was, but in judo Udegarami is not a Kimura!!He may have used it, but did not create it.

nothing wrong with answering questions using the terminology the asker used. they asked about the use of techniques seen in BJJ in judo tournament, using the terminology of BJJ. no problems there. this is in the correct section.

Ricebale wrote:Nopo, he doesn't

Lol

Technically, all listed techniques are legal. The problem is more so that most local referees are ikyu and below who have no interest in keeping up with "youtube" moves. It is not necessarily their fault though, they see them as shoulder/neck attacks, which they can be. And when unexperienced competitors learn youtube moves above their expertise, they tend to target the shoulder when doing ude garami, and crank necks when doing the head&arm chokes. So as long as you learn what to target, you'll be fine. Travis Stephens has even won an olympic match by guillotine, I believe.

I realize that this topic is well over a year old, but I wanted to add a comment about the guillotine choke. In the state championship tournament earlier this year, there was a club that consists largely of BJJ and wrestlers who do some judo cross training. Their standing judo was lame and consisted mainly of tackling their opponents, not throwing them. They were not familiar with the Japanese judo commands. I saw multiple times, instances where the referees shouted "matte" and they didn't stop fighting because they didn't know the commands.

The refereeing at the tournament was terrible. They were too busy trying to spot and hand out hansoku make for inadvertently touching a leg to be concerned with genuine safety issues. Anyways, my 15-year old son got matched with one of these grapplers who started crushing my son into a bent-over posture and then locked in the guillotine choke. Upon applying the choke, he dropped to his back and then wrapped the legs around my son's lower torso and then bridged upwards. It was clearly a neck crank, not a properly applied choke. This continued for several seconds.

Sensing the danger, my son wisely relaxed his body and waited for the referees to call the choke. The referees finally stopped the action about 10-12 seconds in and had a conference as to whether there was a neck crank or not. After they finished, they cautioned the grappler, but assessed no penalty. My son finished the match, but it became clear after another minute that he wasn't "all there." He seemed spaced out and was just fighting on adrenalin. When the match ended, he came off the mat and his whole chest and upper body was turning purple and he seemed dazed. We called for a medic and an EMT came to assess him.

The next 15 minutes were scary. My son had no feeling in the fingers on his right hand. He became nauseous and threw up several times in a nearby trash can. I don't know the particulars about the anatomy, but EMT explained that the nerves between two vertabrae feed out to the fingers and those two vertabrae were the ones that would have been stressed by the neck crank. The disorientation, nausea, and numbness were the results of the technique.

I relate this incident in the hopes that coaches will avoid teaching dangerous techniques like this to juniors and ensure that all the safety considerations of the techniques are explained thoroughly. Judo can be safe for practice and competition when we exercise proper caution and take it upon ourselves to teach our students to always consider safety. Many of us use caution when teaching makikomi throws for example, delaying instruction until students are advanced enough to learn them properly. Likewise, we take steps to ensure that chokes and armbars are taught safely so that people can get up the next morning and go to work or school the next day.

I'm not sure what we are to do about non-judo grappling clubs that enter judo tournaments. They are a danger because they have not been taught jita kyoei as part of their training. I discovered after the fact that several clubs in our area no longer compete in the state championships anymore because this group of dangerous grapplers try to dominate it every year. There is an entirely different atmosphere at other tournaments that they don't tend to frequent.

I hope referees will be more mindful to ensure safety, not just try to enforce IJF rules. I apologize if I offend, but it's stupid to be worried more about uke inadvertently touching tori's leg during an attack and then ignore tori trying to break uke's neck.

Sometimes its better to tap, even if the submission is not "legal"...

Fritz wrote:Sometimes its better to tap, even if the submission is not "legal"...

The three laws ...
- you cannot win;
- you cannot break even;
- you cannot cash out of the game.

So from time to time it is important for young people to understand that "winning" means to barely survive.

Not to get heavy or anything like that ...