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Cichorei Kano
Stacey
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    ThePieman
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by ThePieman Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:49 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=glCAiJpfAFE
    Stacey
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Stacey Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:33 am

    great stuff. Like I keep saying - there is no defense to somebody who's been working juji from every angle for decades.
    Cichorei Kano
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:15 am

    Stacey wrote:great stuff. Like I keep saying - there is no defense to somebody who's been working juji from every angle for decades.

    That is not true. It is perfectly possible to avoid getting in jûji-gatame, but you need to know how and have long trained for that. Even when you know how, it does not mean you will then win obviously, as you simply might be defeated with other newaza. Defending against jûji-gatame is actually really simple but one has to understand the physics of it and think in those terms during jûdô. Jûji-gatame requires a lever that can only be applied if there is a fulcrum. If you neutralize either the fulcrum or lever, jûji-gatame is impossible no matter how great your expertise. Well, that is to say, there is a single exception, namely where one is so physically outrageously strong that one is able to overcome any technique by extreme force. If I give you a crowbar, you're still not going to be able to tilt a Leopard Tank, and if you'd be able to apply such extreme force on the crowbar, you are going to exceed the integrity of the crowbar and it will break without the Leopard Tank moving. Levers reduced the force necessary to accomplish overcoming the load, but the load still can be larger than that what the lever can produce.

    The person skilled in jûji-gatame will indeed know many angles and situations where to apply the technique, but both the armbar as the defense against it still rely on the same principle: lever + fulcrum. The person undergoing the armbar has to keep that in mind and as long as he or she promptly neutralizes one of those essential parts (which does not require a lot of force, by the way) the armbar cannot succeed.
    Glorfindel
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Glorfindel Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:23 am

    Calm down, trainning stuff!
    Stacey
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Stacey Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:52 am

    Listen, in the world of women's MMA, where people are Ronda's size, it's going to be quite a while before anybody gains the expertise to block Ronda's juji. Simple - doesn't matter how well you understand the physics, she's been slapping that puppy on people for decades, from angles they've never encountered before.

    Sure, this was training, and Uriah didn't get all "testosterone poisoned" over it, but even he had a hard time with it (note were he realizes it's happening and says, "oh, no, not again". Sure, he's not punching her in the head or using strength against her (too much) and it is training, but it does show how she's a virtuoso on that particular technique.

    I don't care how well I know how to block something, if a person is sufficiently versed in it, it may very well be inevitable. We've all had those times when we've trained with somebody who can throw a particular throw and always get it. You can feel it coming, but can't do anything to stop it. Same with a juji that's as established as Ronda's. There's going to be a discrepancy between Ronda's acumen with juji and anybody's ability to successfully block it for a good long time. PArt of it is yes, she's an elite, Olympic medalist, and that level of athleticism alone is a specific advantage. But, the other part, and a significant part, is that she's been practicing it for decades.
    Cichorei Kano
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:30 am

    Stacey wrote:Listen, in the world of women's MMA, where people are Ronda's size, it's going to be quite a while before anybody gains the expertise to block Ronda's juji. Simple - doesn't matter how well you understand the physics, she's been slapping that puppy on people for decades, from angles they've never encountered before.

    Sure, this was training, and Uriah didn't get all "testosterone poisoned" over it, but even he had a hard time with it (note were he realizes it's happening and says, "oh, no, not again". Sure, he's not punching her in the head or using strength against her (too much) and it is training, but it does show how she's a virtuoso on that particular technique.

    I don't care how well I know how to block something, if a person is sufficiently versed in it, it may very well be inevitable. We've all had those times when we've trained with somebody who can throw a particular throw and always get it. You can feel it coming, but can't do anything to stop it. Same with a juji that's as established as Ronda's. There's going to be a discrepancy between Ronda's acumen with juji and anybody's ability to successfully block it for a good long time. PArt of it is yes, she's an elite, Olympic medalist, and that level of athleticism alone is a specific advantage. But, the other part, and a significant part, is that she's been practicing it for decades.

    But that's a different problem and more of the order of the individuals Ronda meets than of the inanimate object, namely the armbar itself.

    The comparison between armbars and throws is not a good one because the biomechanics underlying throws is far more complicated than that or armbars, and because it isn't a matter of succeeding in applying an armbar. The Brownian movements and patterns that precede throws are infinite in terms of possibilities, and mechanical couple-based throws can also be realized without any kuzushi. Shifts in center of mass, conservation of momentum, equilibrium, collission of bodies, these are all physics concepts that play in throws. Armbars are much, much simpler, and a mere fact of lever action. It isn't a matter about how many ways of jûji-gatame you know and from how many situations you can do it. Its principle remains the same, and so its blocking principle. So, you may know 413 ways to do it, if I master the physical insight of how to prevent, it, you will still be able to catch me with jûji-gatame, no doubt, but you will not succeed in submission with it. It is also not a matter of "holding out". You can put my armbar in jûji-gatame, and I guarantee you you will not be able to apply successfully apply it. It really isn't the same as the ability to block a throw for some time. There is one difference that has to do with clothing, namely if the person has short pants rather than a jûdô zubon it is not 100% identical, but that is not very important here. Also, it is important to understand that what I am writing here most certainly is not a criticism of Ronda at all, but one of the coaching of her adversaries. Clearly, from a strategic point of view her adversaries have not been properly trained in escapes from armbars. That is not even typical for MMA, but a major problem in jûdô too. Most jûdôka have never learnt armbar escapes. What they do when caught in an armbar is attempt to resist it. You see this problem very significantly when people perform katame-no-kata: First series, they all do their escapes from osae-komi, second they all do their escapes (often not very realistic but anyhow) to shime-waza, third series ... nothing, they are armbarred and tap out. Why ? Because they do not know or understand escapes from armbars. Like you say, unless one has similar or more experience than Ronda there is little sense in competing with her armbars, but that does not mean one could not be coached on how to prevent and escape them if at least the coach has that knowledge. Instead, what do we see ? We see that her opponents simply do their own stuff, hopefully score somehow, use the stuff in what they are strong, but there is zero proper strategy in armbar escapes. Now, I have not said that they would win from Ronda if they can do that. Why would I say that ? I have a lot of sympathy for Ronda and wish she will win and continue to win her contests ! Even if one knows how to block jûji-gatame one might still be forced into a submission with another armbar, or be choked or whatever. I did not suggest a recipe to win from Ronda, all I said is that the armbar itself (not talking about Ronda, simply the Newtonian concept of armbars as we know them in jûdô) can be escaped from and that it is irresponsible to send her adversaries in the cage without them mastering these if they want to stand some chance. Simply put, not you, not Ronda, not me, not anyone can force anyone into submission with jûji-gatame if the fulcrum or lever is destroyed, period.
    Glorfindel
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Glorfindel Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:09 am

    Hum mm... So you think that Ronda's last oponent didnt know how to block an arm bar?? She trainned with well known grappler...

    As an engineer, grappling is very easy to understand to me, it's simple mecanics, but in a very dynamic environement, it's not always easy to apply the 'knowledge' even if it's simple.

    Everybody knows that Roger Gracie will collar choke you, but even at top level, they are not able to block it, you think that it's 'cause they dont understand the simple mecanics??

    I tend to agree with Stacey.
    Cichorei Kano
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:52 am

    Glorfindel wrote:Hum mm... So you think that Ronda's last oponent didnt know how to block an arm bar??

    Did I write in my post "I think that Ronda's last opponent didn't know how to block an arm bar" (...) If I did not write that why suggest I did ?

    What do/did we see in the fight ? We saw this:

    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  162480676.0_standard_730.0

    Essentially what Ronda's opponent is doing is grabbing her own arm with her other arm, and this in a very static nonreactive way. That is a very basic 'defense' that every decent judoka knows. It is a 'prevention' of jûji-gatame, to prevent the arm from being stretched. It's not an 'escape' from jûji-gatame once the arm is stretched or in the process of being stretched. The success of preventive action of grabbing the arm predominantly relies on the skill of the other one to pry the arm loose, on the physical strength of the opponent and the gap with your strength. From the moment Ronda was able to get the arm loose, her opponent was toast and did not attempt any escape whatsoever. In fact, the whole course of Ronda attempting the armbar the only thing the opponent did was trying to hold on to the arm. That is not reflective of someone who masters actual escapes from armbars with great skill. Whether the person "knows how to" but simply does not bring into practice "what she knows" or whatever, I leave up to others to speculate about, but it is not different from the reactions to the two osae-komi which Ronda applied. The first one obviously was a difficult position with it occuring so close to the cage. Nevertheless, what we see is her opponent essentially relying on her flexibility. The flipping certainly is a valid escape she masters, BUT ... it is also the ONLY thing she attempts over the whole course taken up by the two osae-komi. That is not very smart against a newaza player of Ronda's level. Ronda on the other hand applies action/reaction in her katame-waza. She 'responds' to what the other one does by changing positions, techniques which are appropriate answers. She does not simply 'blindly' keep repeating the same even if is clear from previous attempts that it did not work or the other one will mount an effective response. There is little sense in attempting 24 times the same thing in a player of that level. If it does not work after two times, give it up and try something else, by preference an EFFICIENT escape techniques. What we see is that her opponent does not attempt any other escapes from Ronda's kesa-gatame. Why ? Same issue ... if she actually KNOWS and also MASTERS other effective escapes from the osae-komi ... well, we only see what we see, and that certainly is not a display of a breadth of escape techniques to osae-komi, although admittedly a display of a single escape (and great flexibility) which she does master but which eventually fails. In this way, what we see is not so different from what we see in mainstream judoka in shiai. All of them know some escapes from osae-komi, not a lot but some, and all of them virtually know no escapes from kansetsu-waza except pure intuitive prevention such as a grabbing your arm with your other, which from the moment the two arms are separated does not reflect maximal efficiency since attempting to resist just with your arms the combined force of your opponent's arms, legs and torso, is nothing but "seeing how long you can hold out" rather than an effective technical and efficient escape.

    For those who want to see that match and appreciate for themselves, it's available here (version II):

    http://fightnext.com/video/GB3DMSGW5165/Ronda-Rousey-vs-Liz-Carmouche--UFC-157


    Glorfindel wrote:She trainned with well known grappler...

    So ? If you train with Teddy Riner and become even a world champion yourself and supremely skilled fighter yourself, are you then Teddy Riner, or more specifically do you then also clone his anatomy, physiology, tokui-waza, weight, height, fat percentage, and strength ? In a multifactorial action like judo (or MMA) even when the identical person fights someone else you will have a completely different fight because the number of displacements and reactions is infinite, so that certainly is the case if you replace that protagonist by someone "who trained with X".

    Glorfindel wrote:As an engineer, grappling is very easy to understand to me, it's simple mecanics, but in a very dynamic environement, it's not always easy to apply the 'knowledge' even if it's simple.

    I am not talking about 'grappling' or about 'jûdô newaza', I was talking about one specific aspect of 'katame-waza', namely "ude-hishigi-jûdji-gatame", even more specifically "escapes from ude-hishigi-jûji-gatame". Today in jûdô they are not even part of any black-belt exam, of any instructors or coaching course, do not feature in most jûdô books, and are not part of standard teaching, and most of the katame-no-kata performers are at their weakest in that aspect. Knowledge in that area is weak, and mostly relies on brute force combined with ineffective movements that are instinctive rather than logical science-based.

    If you read what I wrote you should notice, that I wrote "Even if one knows how to block jûji-gatame one might still be forced into a submission with another armbar, or be choked or whatever.", for the simple reason that the better newaza-person even if he/she can't appply one technique, through the combination of other katame-waza and supporting movements will be able to win. However, that is not what I wrote about; I wrote solely about the blocking of jûji-gatame, period.

    The varying dynamic allows an infinite number of possibilities to apply jûji-gatame, a number one can use more effectively if one has wide skill in jûji-gatame. However, 'applying jûji-gatame' and 'succeeding in submitting the opponent with jûji-gatame' are two different things. What I wrote about is the latter.

    Glorfindel wrote:
    Everybody knows that Roger Gracie will collar choke you, but even at top level, they are not able to block it, you think that it's 'cause they dont understand the simple mecanics??

    We are not talking about "Roger Gracie", and we are not talking about "chokes" or even "armbars in general", we are talking about one single arm bar with its variations, and how disassembling the mechanism makes it impossible, specifically taking away the fulcrum or lever makes it impossible to do specifically apply jûji-gatame, nothing more, nothing less.

    Whether I think people cannot do something because they do not understand the mechanics. Most people have some very basic notions, but few people fully understand the mechanics of judo as a whole. It also is not simple, and very few researchers in the West have seriously tackled it. In fact there are only three groups working on it (Trilles in France, Imamura in the US, and Sacripanti in Italy). But armbars, isolated out of the whole newaza game are relatively simple. People do not tend to think in mechanical terms, and virtually no teacher, no matter how excellent typically teaches judo in a scientific way. It is extremely rare to do so. Secondly, one has to have the ability to think during the shiai. In general, most jûdôka do not "consciously think" at that time, and it is something that one typically acquires only at a very late point usually long after one's competitive career has ended. Judoka mostly 'unleash', instinctively react, but do not consciously process matters. Finally, to successfully apply one's knowledge, the understanding of mechanics has to be matched by skill. I understand the mechanics of a triple jump in iceskating or some complex movements in gymnastics or diving, but I do not remotely have such motor skills in those disciplines. Apart from having the motor skills, one needs to be able to rely on the supporting systems. If you cannot keep up with the physical fitness of the opponent, you will still know how to do the movement, but being gassed, reactions, promptness won't be optimal, and acidosis and malfunction as neutrotransmitter level will prevent you from successfully bringing that knowledge into practice. On top of that, even if all is correct there, psychological factors such as nerves or intimdation may still prevent success.

    Glorfindel wrote:I tend to agree with Stacey.

    So ? This isn't a poll where you can take home a fur animal if you or someone attracts the more votes.



    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total
    Glorfindel
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Glorfindel Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:52 am

    Everything you said CK...
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Ricebale Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:21 am

    There's way too many words here for the mma section Razz
    Glorfindel
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Glorfindel Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:49 pm

    Too many words for a simple arm bar escape :-)
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Neil G Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:39 am

    I kind of like how the MMA fighter shows he understands how to do light ground randori. He's trying to learn something from Ronda there, not shut her down with pure strength/athleticism (which he probably could).
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    Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda  Empty Re: Ultimate Fighter: Uriah vs. Ronda

    Post by Taiobroshi Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:31 am

    Neil G wrote:I kind of like how the MMA fighter shows he understands how to do light ground randori. He's trying to learn something from Ronda there, not shut her down with pure strength/athleticism (which he probably could).

    I think Uriah Hall is being careful about his persona/control after almost kicking that guy's head off this season of TUF. He didn't do anything wrong, but it was an awkward, dramatic edit by the producers considering how nice of guy he seems like. As far as his future goes, it must be a lot of pressure to be a middleweight going (tentatively) to UFC, especially since he already lost to Weidman. I hope Anderson beats Weidman and retires with an exclamation point on his career, so that the middleweight talent pool gets the publicity it deserves.

    In regards to the juji gatame, the national players I train with recall the an unspoken rule that working with Ronda was a great way to lose an arm! Uriah is a striker so I don't take his testimony on ground technique seriously. It is obviously the case that an armbar will always look like an armbar and the principles governing it will always apply. There's no voodoo- it's biomechanics as CK is pointing out. Her opponents have no answer to her legs being crossed, nor do they have the balance to escape if they manage to stand. She shoots for position first, which isn't the way most MMA fighters (and, from my experience, most judoka around my age) treat their submissions. Definitely not inescapable, since we've seen her opponents with so-so grappling experience pop out unharmed on a couple of occasions.

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