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    The intricacies of ukemi waza

    Quicksilver
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    The intricacies of ukemi waza Empty The intricacies of ukemi waza

    Post by Quicksilver Wed May 01, 2013 10:36 pm

    Greetings,

    I am interested in the finer technical points of ukemi waza. Ukemi seem to be something taught briefly to beginners until one is passable at them then never really mentioned again, which I find curious since I have it on good authority that there is considerably more to them than the "relax, keep your head tucked in and slap the mat (etc.)" that people start out being taught, and also because they are kinda important; though practically speaking it's not difficult to understand why this would occur... So, as a matter of intellectual curiosity and one of practical interest, a) am I correct in my hypothesis that there is more to ukemi waza than the obvious and b) if so, what are these details?

    With gratitude,


    Quicksilver
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    Post by Hanon Wed May 01, 2013 11:16 pm

    Quicksilver wrote:Greetings,

    I am interested in the finer technical points of ukemi waza. Ukemi seem to be something taught briefly to beginners until one is passable at them then never really mentioned again, which I find curious since I have it on good authority that there is considerably more to them than the "relax, keep your head tucked in and slap the mat (etc.)" that people start out being taught, and also because they are kinda important; though practically speaking it's not difficult to understand why this would occur... So, as a matter of intellectual curiosity and one of practical interest, a) am I correct in my hypothesis that there is more to ukemi waza than the obvious and b) if so, what are these details?

    With gratitude,


    Quicksilver

    If I didn't know better I would suspect you have been asked to write these posts Laughing Laughing

    Your posts strike a chord with me that I find stimulating and interesting also rather irresistible not to reply to. Wink

    Ukemi is a large and complex subject. Ukemi are both a physical and psychological exercise and their practice cannot be stressed enough.

    The obvious lesson to be taken from ukemi is safety, to learn how to accept a fal with a degree of safety. The other deeper less well understood reason for learning and practicing ukemi is the psychological factor.

    As we grow through the formative months and years of life we are taught to stand up, walk then run etc. Now we join a judo dojo and the teacher is telling us to break a persons balance and throw him on the floor? Hello, to a five year old he or she has just spent the first 5 years trying NOT to end up on the floor.
    There is nothing natural to being thrown, immobilised, strangled or joint locked? Judo is a foreign practice to our body and psyche.

    To the bones of the matter.

    Ukemi not only allow us to land safely after being thrown they develop 'judo self confidence' Why does the sensei ever lesson request the new pupil to relax and not hit the mat like a tin soldier? Its because the pupil is correctly consciously afraid of being thrown, its just not a normal 'normal' act.

    Ukemi are the reaction to this abnormal act in teaching the pupil how to accept and receive such a foreign act. Ukemi not only protect the body but also strengthen the mind.

    lets dig deeper. When thrown on judo we get up. Life should be like that even though I still struggle to get up on tomes after one of lifes bashings.

    Ukemi need to be practiced every lesson after taiso every lesson for the rest of one judo life. Give me a pupil who appears cared to attack or fight in judo and I NEVER look at the technique I teach them ukemi and the rest often falls into place. The tatami is a very alien place. We, as judoka, have to normalise the tatami and actually become friends with it and the environment we practice in.

    The best sensei I know have the gift of keeping in touch with their own novice days and memories.

    There is the school of thought that if ukemi are taught the pupil will be so comfortable with being thrown they will not fight their hardest to avoid being thrown. I reply to this that judo has kaeshi waza and the pupil knows that and with kaeshi waza in mind lack of ukemi can lead to a pupil being stiff and not learning to attack for fear of being countered.

    Ukemi keep us as safe as possible by dissipating the force generated from a throw, The idea being we hot the mat with our total arm before the rest of the body arrives. his strike dissipates the force and is what enables us to stand up and continue to work. Ukemi also dissipate the natural fear of being thrown. Become expet at ukemi and ones judo grows commensurately.

    This is a start, lets see what feed back you have. It is indeed so nice to debate such matters with you. You should open more threads. Cool

    Kindest regards,

    Mike
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    Post by genetic judoka Thu May 02, 2013 5:07 am

    I've never heard of ukemi being something one learned at their first class and then never touched upon again. we do ukemi practice every class. I know because I'm the one who leads the warmups, which includes ukemi. and I do my best to mix it up as much as possible.

    some teach it very statically. you find some space on the mat, and the instructor counts out loud, and you take the prescribed fall while standing still, get back up, and do it again.

    I refuse to practice it like this. I insist that everything be done dynamically. walk forwards and take a back fall, now walk backwards and take a back fall. walk forward and take a side fall, same thing walking backward. now side step and take a sidefall, now do the same side walking sideways the other direction. now do both on the other side. roll, stand up, and roll again. now walk sideways and roll the direction you're walking. now while walking that same direction, roll with the other arm first. now do the opposite.

    the way I see it, other than in static nage komi (a training device that is of little value once a student grasps the basics) falls are never static and predictable. so the best way to get good at taking weird falls safely and comfortably, is to practice by taking weird falls, safely.

    if one wants to master ukemi (a desire all judoka should possess) the only way to do this is to mix it up in ukemi practice, and also to be thrown a lot. included in being thrown a lot, is being thrown hard by exceptionally talented judoka, and being thrown incorrectly by novice judoka. I've learned more ukemi from working with white belts than I have from working with other black belts (my throwing improves more by working with black belts, but that's not the topic of this discussion). when someone throws you well, the ukemi is easy. when someone throws you poorly, the ukemi is trickier. and it would be a shame to only know how to take safe falls from throws that are executed well.

    it is a point of great pride for me that I'm told in nage komi how easy I am to throw, and sometimes in the same class I'm told by the same partner in randori how hard I am to throw. and I am not one to block throws in randori by stiff arming, or becoming rigid. I avoid being thrown by getting out of the way. the only reason I can do that is because I'm confident that if I fail to get out of the way in time, I can handle the resulting fall safely.

    there is much more to ukemi than exhaling, tucking your chin, and slapping the mat. it is an act requiring great muscle control. some parts of your body go limp while others stay rigid. it's one of those things that's hard to learn via reading. though if Hanon would post his ukemi routine video maybe that would help.
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    Post by jkw Thu May 02, 2013 5:57 am

    My first sensei was adamant that you could assess someones judo on the basis of their ukemi. He maintained that "ukemi is the exam of judo".

    He also said a number of times that if you get stuck in your judo, you can start over again from ukemi. At any rate, ukemi should be practiced every time you train.
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    Post by Hanon Thu May 02, 2013 7:15 am

    genetic judoka wrote:touched though if Hanon would post his ukemi routine video maybe that would help.

    I think the clip in question is on you tube? I have no idea, after all these years, how to find it?

    How's your knee problem?

    Regards,

    Mike
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    Post by Quicksilver Thu May 02, 2013 9:37 am

    Many thanks to all who have replied thus far. Smile

    Allow me to clarify- by 'never really mentioned again' I do not mean literally never practiced again, my experience concurs with that of course they are, in warmups as well as every time one takes a fall. But unlike any other technique or set of techniques in Judo ukemi waza do not seem to ever be technically elaborated on- which makes sense if there is literally no technical elaboration to be made, but otherwise seems a bit odd, and that's why I bring up the matter.

    I do have a proper reply to make but am currently typing from my phone so will do so later today.

    Regards.


    Last edited by Quicksilver on Thu May 02, 2013 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by DougNZ Thu May 02, 2013 11:04 am

    Hanon wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:touched though if Hanon would post his ukemi routine video maybe that would help.

    I think the clip in question is on you tube? I have no idea, after all these years, how to find it?

    Is this it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXbRQ9IfSlQ
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    Post by contrarian Thu May 02, 2013 11:08 am

    ukemi is overrated.

    now, before the seagulls come at me in droves, i think most people simply do not understand ukemi. they just slap the floor as hard as they can at every turn. there are many many ways to break a fall, sometimes hard, and sometimes soft. one doesn't have to aim to break off all the finger joints with every slap. doing a controlled feather light zenpo kaiten is much harder than a thunderous attention grabbing fall, i think.
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    Post by Q mystic Thu May 02, 2013 11:28 am

    contrarian wrote:ukemi is overrated.


    Not coming at you at all. Just chat. Very Happy

    I think that ukemi is the best part of judo I ever learned. In soooo many ways I would prefer you to just ask away. Very Happy Anything. Trolling, even, is ok in my books and not that you are or will.

    Don't make the mistake tho of thinking that one hasn't the control of determining, even mid-throw, just how much he will use the breakfall. Just wondering if that might be why you think what you do. Its perfect in every way but one can actually 'quick thought' his way out of one.

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    Post by Quicksilver Thu May 02, 2013 5:11 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:touched though if Hanon would post his ukemi routine video maybe that would help.

    I think the clip in question is on you tube? I have no idea, after all these years, how to find it?

    Is this it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXbRQ9IfSlQ

    If I recall correctly, the original video (sections of which are in that one) as well as multiple other technique videos may be found via a subsection of the technique section of the Makoto forum ( http://judo.forumotion.co.uk/f9-gokyo-techniques-videos ) however unfortunately most of the links do not seem to be working any more. I am not sure why this would be but perhaps YouTube accounts have some kind of expiration date if not touched for a certain amount of time?

    Hanon-
    Thank you, it is very kind of you to say. Smile

    The psychological aspect was not at the forefront of my mind upon starting this topic, but it is a good point... I take it that the effects you mention are not just theoretical but ones you have personally observed?

    I also find it interesting that you say "Judo is a foreign place to our body and our psyche" since it is in essence a system sociologically/culturally/morally/philosophically/combatively based (depending on with what 'branch', if you will, one is primarily concerned, and there is a debate there, but, no.) but in all cases it has its origins with and is perpetuated by people... such systems may I s'pose be rather foreign to the sum of their human parts, but still... And I am really terrible at staying on topic, and this is me trying not to digress. Embarassed

    Matters of metaphorical significance can be, talking generally, very useful for acting as models with which one may manipulate, demonstrate, explain, etc. far more complex phenomena; but specifically regarding your comment "When thrown on judo we get up. Life should be like that (...)", as a parallel this makes sense but (unlike the logical connection of proficiency in ukemi resulting in greater confidence in Judo as a whole to attack without fear at the prospect of being countered, with commitment, etc., a point which I am not inclined to counter) is the connection here perhaps too abstract to have a practical effect?


    I personally don't mind taking falls (which is probably a very good thing because I tend to do it a lot), ukemi be rather fun, and in my opinion nothing gives one an appreciation for a technically beautiful throw quite like being uke to it.


    GJ-
    Regarding your comment about being thrown well by talented Judoka as opposed to poorly by white belts... agreed. Little kids who are beginners, probably weigh about a third of what I do and seemingly have no sense of self preservation are particularly scary. Shocked


    Warm regards & with gratitude.


    Last edited by Quicksilver on Thu May 02, 2013 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Hanon Thu May 02, 2013 10:06 pm

    contrarian wrote:ukemi is overrated.

    now, before the seagulls come at me in droves, i think most people simply do not understand ukemi. they just slap the floor as hard as they can at every turn. there are many many ways to break a fall, sometimes hard, and sometimes soft. one doesn't have to aim to break off all the finger joints with every slap. doing a controlled feather light zenpo kaiten is much harder than a thunderous attention grabbing fall, i think.

    Hi,

    I am confused by your comments? What do you mean exactly by "Ukemi are over rated"?

    I cant think, off hand, of a zenpo kaiten ukemi being possible from any te, koshi or ashi waza? I don't know what percentage of yoko ukemi V zenpo kaiten ukemi are in terms of usage but again I don't recall ever seeing a zenpo kaiten ukmi performed in a shiai?

    In relation to your comment regarding finger damage. Yoko, mae and ushiro ukemi utilise the whole of the arm from shoulder to tip if the finger palm down. No one should ever attempt a ukemi by slapping the tatami with just their hand?

    Hey I get muddled up, perhaps I have misread your point. Any clarification would be appreciated.

    many thanks,

    Mike
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    Post by Hanon Thu May 02, 2013 10:12 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:touched though if Hanon would post his ukemi routine video maybe that would help.

    I think the clip in question is on you tube? I have no idea, after all these years, how to find it?

    Is this it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXbRQ9IfSlQ

    No, its a complete sequence. That example is only one, one taken from a set of thirteen ukemi? I cant find them now either on You tube? This rings a bell though I seem to recall last year not being able to find any of my you tube clips?
    I cant remember my password now nor my account name either?

    I THINK I have copies here on an external HD BU would have no idea how to post them here nor even if its possible? I am very PC illiterate.

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    Post by genetic judoka Fri May 03, 2013 7:04 am

    speaking of ukemi:
    a few months ago I was the uke for my sensei's jujitsu demonstration whose audience was a bunch of older women. toward the end of the demo the subject switched to judo and ukemi. I demonstrated a backfall and a front roll on the concrete floor (stung my fingers a bit to slap despite doing it right, I'm not gonna lie). well, the other day he got a call telling him an 85 yr old woman who was in the audience tripped and fell a few days ago, did what she remembered from my demonstration, and walked away unharmed.

    I thought that was loosely related to this discussion and as such worth sharing. as you may imagine, that news made my day.
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    Post by Wandering WB Mon May 06, 2013 12:06 pm

    I have had several people, including competent gymnasts, tell me quite clearly that there is no need to slap the mat when doin a break fall. Unortunately, Hanon decided not to divulge any secret ukemi technique information, although as usual, he has plenty of pleasantries to say to us. No doubt he hides a book on ukemi under his pillow at night, but will not let anyone read it. My preeeccciiioouuuuusssssssssss...........

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    Post by Cichorei Kano Mon May 06, 2013 1:48 pm

    Wandering WB wrote:I have had several people, including competent gymnasts, tell me quite clearly that there is no need to slap the mat when doin a break fall. Unortunately, Hanon decided not to divulge any secret ukemi technique information, although as usual, he has plenty of pleasantries to say to us. No doubt he hides a book on ukemi under his pillow at night, but will not let anyone read it. My preeeccciiioouuuuusssssssssss...........


    As I do not share a bed with Hanon-sensei, I have no idea what if anything he keeps under his pillow, but ...

    conceptually there are some major differences between falls in gymnastics and in judo, despite there obviously also being some similarities:

    - In gymnastics, falls are accidental, but in jûdô they are intended by oneself or by the opponent
    - In gymnastics falls are passive, although impact can come from speed, acceleration and height
    - In jûdô the opponent attempts to throw as hard as possible and oftentimes falls on top of it, which is not possible in gymnastics.

    Conceptually, in jûdô the idea has been to round the body like a ball. This idea has some merit, but also is not correct, since a human body is neither made of rubber not pumped full of air.

    Gymnasts frequently injure themselves in their falls, a jûdôka rarely gets injured in a fall, unless that fall is controlled by an opponent who is actually attempting to throw as hard as possible, or causes him to fall in a difficult angle (kawazu-gake, or poor ura-nage), or in a way that he cannot complete normal ukemi, or falls on top of him, etc.

    However, in addition to these 'concepts', either pedagogical, romantic, or technical, there is also the pure science. The slapping of the hand is most certainly not an artifact. The science behind ukemi is far more complicated than one might initially think, and relies on a complex of unconscious reflexes that produce the stretching the legs (I2 > I1 --> ω2 < ω1), a slowdown of flight towards the ground (mυ1 + I1 ω1 > mυ2 + I2 ω2), dissipation in oscillation of the body towards the ground (½ mυ²2 + ½ I2mυ²2 – ½ I3mυ²3 ≈ ½ mυ²2), and reducing the impact with the ground in a way that the collision -½ mυ²2 ≈ -Fr and mυ2 ≈ Ft with t and r being infinitesimal, then --> Ft – Fr ≈ 0 after the hand has slapped and the body impacted the tatami and the movement is halted.

    In summary, while it is possible with experience and study to do some fall breaking without using the hand to slap, this does not imply that the slapping itself cannot majorly contribute in break falling and thus make break falling even much more effective in certain situations where just experience and other actions of the body would not suffice to break the fall in an harmless way.
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    Post by samsmith2424 Mon May 06, 2013 3:12 pm

    In the club where there is no randori which I use. I notice that they practise solo ukemi at least for 5 minutes.

    I don't nowadays do any practise of ukemi, but I am thrown in my training sessions with my 21 year old son many times and often very hard. In general I am not hurt.

    I don't believe that those in that club could take an hour of hard and fast falls despite their regular 5 minutes of traing in ukemi because their bodies (ligaments, muscles, bones etc) are not able to take such falls. My body is not only strong from weight training but from regularly being thrown hard and fast.


    Am I right in this belief that the body becomes strong from being thrown, and the neck muscles need to be strong enough to stop the head hitting the floor rather than getting better at ukemi from solo dojo practise, (which seems very ineffective to me and almost a waste of time)?


    (edited for spelling)
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    Post by BillC Mon May 06, 2013 4:06 pm

    samsmith2424 wrote: In the club where there is no randori which I use. I notice that they practise solo ukemi at least for 5 minutes.

    I don't nowadays do any practise of ukemi, but I am thrown in my training sessions with my 21 year old son many times and often very hard. In general I am not hurt.

    I don't believe that those in that club could take an hour of hard and fast falls despite their regular 5 minutes of traing in ukemi because their bodies (ligaments, muscles, bones etc) are not able to take such falls. My body is not only strong from weight training but from regularly being thrown hard and fast.


    Am I right in this belief that the body becomes strong from being thrown, and the neck muscles need to be strong enough to stop the head hitting the floor rather than getting better at ukemi from solo dojo practise, (which seems very ineffective to me and almost a waste of time)?

    (edited for spelling)

    My humble response is ... it is best to do both. Why?
    - Physical training, I certainly agree with you emphatically ... especially as you say flexibility in the joints and strength in the neck ... is indeed very, very important. But again, a GOOD ukemi training program helps develop both of those in combination with GOOD training off the mat.

    - Being thrown by a caring partner is rather limited. It is often more on one side than another, and one is falling from a limited set of circumstances.

    - Falling, on the other hand, can come from unexpected circumstances ... both physical and more importantly cognitively ... last thoughts are reputed to include "what just happened" and last words can easily be (from experience) "oh sh*t." The "thrown from my motorcycle and came up without a scratch" stories are so common as to be boring. Even in randori and shiai ... a new partner with a unique throwing style can surprise even experienced judoka and a good program of ukemi ... a good program ... can prepare one for those unusual circumstances.

    - Finally, and Sam you don't seem to have that problem in taking falls generously for your son ... but certainly you know people for whom NOT falling is an issue of pride ... like the guys who won't bow. A lot of falling just makes facing everyday life easier.

    That's what I would suggest to the "rebels."

    To "traditionalists" I suggest that complete boredom with ukemi among students is a sign of a both lack of creativity and a grasp of the the breadth of judo.

    Here's a passage I enjoy, sorry to re-post so often on the old forum.

    A drunken man falls from his carriage without hurting himself seriously, remarked Chuang-tsu over two thousand years ago. This is because his body is relaxed and his spirit is entire. But actually confronting a fall, this knowledge is of no use; the body automatically contracts and stiffens.

    A judo student must learn to fall, to meet the ground altogether instead of trying to keep off the ground and taking all the shock on one small point such as the wrist. After a time he can meet a fall on the judo mat, and if the teacher says “Fall’, he can do so.

    Still something is lacking. One day the teacher comes up behind him quietly, and pulls him sharply over. If he falls then properly, it is part of him; he does it without knowing what he is doing. If the surprise makes him stiffen up, his training is incomplete.

    Even after he can pass this test, there is one more. One day he will fall over, on ice or whatever it is, wholly by chance, and will fall properly. Once this happens, it affects his walking and his judo practice, because before he had always been subconsciously afraid of falling. Now the ground is his friend.

    The application to the Way is to falls in life. To be able to take a disaster or a great failure, with the whole personality, without shrinking back from it, like the big smack with which the judo man hits the ground, then to rise at once.

    Not to be appalled at a moral fall. Yet it is not that it does not matter. The judo man tries by every means not to be thrown, but when he is thrown it does not hurt him, and in a sense it does not matter. It matters immensely, and yet it does not matter.


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    Post by genetic judoka Tue May 07, 2013 2:24 am

    bill, where is that quote from? I've heard it many times before, but don't know the source. even still, I love it.
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    Post by BillC Tue May 07, 2013 6:40 am

    genetic judoka wrote:bill, where is that quote from? I've heard it many times before, but don't know the source. even still, I love it.

    It was stuffed as a mimeograph (yes, mimeograph) in the back of Draeger's book when I received a copy as a gift about 30 years ago. Beyond that, I too would like to know. The Chinese reference sounds Kano-ish ... and the subject fits ... but beyond that I have no facts. Only a mimeograph.
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    Post by GregW Wed May 08, 2013 4:15 am

    I had a couple of interesting ukemi waza experiences. Recently, I was asked to start up a club at a community recreation center. I had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the proper insurance and the certificates that the city wanted. After providing all that, I had to interview with a guy from the parks department who was their main advisor over martial arts programs. The dude was a third dan in judo and aikido and was familiar with some other forms as well. His job was basically quality control, to ensure that martial arts instructors were qualified and weren't using city facilities to build a bunch of "judo-trained killers."

    The city's guy told me to bring my gi to the interview at one of the other rec centers and that he'd have me do randori with another guy, who happened to be a deputy from the sheriff's department. This guy was also a third dan. When I showed up, I dressed in my gi and started warming up, waiting for the deputy to arrive. As part of my usual warm ups, I did some basic ukemi, i.e., forward rolls, backward rolls, back and side falls, etc. That's just a part of my routine. I wouldn't feel warmed-up without it. It also helps me know what to expect when I take a fall on the mat at a new place. The deputy guy showed up and we did some randori. All went well.

    At the end of the interview, the city's guy told me that he knew I was legit when I did the ukemi. He knew I had been trained traditionally and that the quality of the ukemi was good. He said that he found that reassuring that I would be teaching that to new students. The randori went well, but he knew that students would need the basics and that my taiso showed attention to those basics.

    Another side-note about ukemi and taking unexpected falls. Recently we had a family reunion. We had a house full of little toddlers running around. I inadvertently backed into one of them and stumbled backwards. The path of my fall would have landed me right on top of him and it probably would have hurt him. I could see him barely out of the corner of my eye and I quickly launched myself over him, as if I was doing the fall for ura-nage. To the astonishment of the rest of the family, I flipped myself up and over him, landing with good ukemi on the living room floor behind my grandson. Of course, the loud boom when I hit the floor startled him, but he was unharmed. Everyone who saw what had happened was pretty impressed! Smile You never know when you'll need ukemi. It's always good to be ready!
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    Post by Guest Wed May 08, 2013 4:43 am

    Wandering WB wrote:I have had several people, including competent gymnasts, tell me quite clearly that there is no need to slap the mat when doin a break fall. Unortunately, Hanon decided not to divulge any secret ukemi technique information, although as usual, he has plenty of pleasantries to say to us. No doubt he hides a book on ukemi under his pillow at night, but will not let anyone read it. My preeeccciiioouuuuusssssssssss...........

    I don't know why but this post has struck me as being very funny. So much so that I'm still laughing out loud as I type this. Tears and all. That said (and I'm still laughing) I'm curious to know why have you been abrasive lately toward other posters?

    I find this topic very interesting and that video is something else! Admittedly I have not mastered ukemi quite like that.
    nomoremondays
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    The intricacies of ukemi waza Empty Re: The intricacies of ukemi waza

    Post by nomoremondays Wed May 08, 2013 5:58 am

    BillC wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:bill, where is that quote from? I've heard it many times before, but don't know the source. even still, I love it.

    It was stuffed as a mimeograph (yes, mimeograph) in the back of Draeger's book when I received a copy as a gift about 30 years ago. Beyond that, I too would like to know. The Chinese reference sounds Kano-ish ... and the subject fits ... but beyond that I have no facts. Only a mimeograph.

    Another source, Dragon Mask: Trevor Leggett
    Ben Reinhardt
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    The intricacies of ukemi waza Empty Re: The intricacies of ukemi waza

    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu May 09, 2013 3:08 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Wandering WB wrote:I have had several people, including competent gymnasts, tell me quite clearly that there is no need to slap the mat when doin a break fall. Unortunately, Hanon decided not to divulge any secret ukemi technique information, although as usual, he has plenty of pleasantries to say to us. No doubt he hides a book on ukemi under his pillow at night, but will not let anyone read it. My preeeccciiioouuuuusssssssssss...........


    As I do not share a bed with Hanon-sensei, I have no idea what if anything he keeps under his pillow, but ...

    conceptually there are some major differences between falls in gymnastics and in judo, despite there obviously also being some similarities:

    - In gymnastics, falls are accidental, but in jûdô they are intended by oneself or by the opponent
    - In gymnastics falls are passive, although impact can come from speed, acceleration and height
    - In jûdô the opponent attempts to throw as hard as possible and oftentimes falls on top of it, which is not possible in gymnastics.

    Conceptually, in jûdô the idea has been to round the body like a ball. This idea has some merit, but also is not correct, since a human body is neither made of rubber not pumped full of air.

    Gymnasts frequently injure themselves in their falls, a jûdôka rarely gets injured in a fall, unless that fall is controlled by an opponent who is actually attempting to throw as hard as possible, or causes him to fall in a difficult angle (kawazu-gake, or poor ura-nage), or in a way that he cannot complete normal ukemi, or falls on top of him, etc.

    However, in addition to these 'concepts', either pedagogical, romantic, or technical, there is also the pure science. The slapping of the hand is most certainly not an artifact. The science behind ukemi is far more complicated than one might initially think, and relies on a complex of unconscious reflexes that produce the stretching the legs (I2 > I1 --> ω2 < ω1), a slowdown of flight towards the ground (mυ1 + I1 ω1 > mυ2 + I2 ω2), dissipation in oscillation of the body towards the ground (½ mυ²2 + ½ I2mυ²2 – ½ I3mυ²3 ≈ ½ mυ²2), and reducing the impact with the ground in a way that the collision -½ mυ²2 ≈ -Fr and mυ2 ≈ Ft with t and r being infinitesimal, then --> Ft – Fr ≈ 0 after the hand has slapped and the body impacted the tatami and the movement is halted.

    In summary, while it is possible with experience and study to do some fall breaking without using the hand to slap, this does not imply that the slapping itself cannot majorly contribute in break falling and thus make break falling even much more effective in certain situations where just experience and other actions of the body would not suffice to break the fall in an harmless way.



    Conservation of angular momentum.

    Besides, the whole arm is used to "slap" not the hand alone.
    I know that I can take falls without hitting the mat with my arm, butit occurs more as neccessity due to the type of fall.
    judoratt
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    The intricacies of ukemi waza Empty Re: The intricacies of ukemi waza

    Post by judoratt Thu May 09, 2013 4:15 pm

    Wandering WB wrote:I have had several people, including competent gymnasts, tell me quite clearly that there is no need to slap the mat when doin a break fall. Unortunately, Hanon decided not to divulge any secret ukemi technique information, although as usual, he has plenty of pleasantries to say to us. No doubt he hides a book on ukemi under his pillow at night, but will not let anyone read it. My preeeccciiioouuuuusssssssssss...........


    My daughter is a level 10 gymnast my sister was a national competitor they are taught how to fall some falls they do slap the mat. Idon't know where you get your advice probably the same place you get yout training advice. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
    Please if you know nothing about Judo and ukemi don't try to give advice on it. No No

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