Judo is not meant for the mass TV audience

Even with all the rule changes to simplify the sport to mass TV audience, I am afraid the IJF's effort will be misdirected and futile to achieve its goal, which is to make judo easy to understand like swimming. It's difficult to explain to someone like this who has never experienced an arm-lock, strangle, or a hold to understand why someone could not get out of one:

Judo is too complicated to follow

idealab wrote:Even with all the rule changes to simplify the sport to mass TV audience, I am afraid the IJF's effort will be misdirected and futile to achieve its goal, which is to make judo easy to understand like swimming. It's difficult to explain to someone like this who has never experienced an arm-lock, strangle, or a hold to understand why someone could not get out of one:

Judo is too complicated to follow

This is a poor op-ed piece. Perhaps it's incomplete. Regardless, Judo is complicated to follow when a match doesn't end with ippon. Spectators want to watch sports that are easy to follow. Soccer, Football, Baseball, Basketball, ect... are easy to follow. Boxing is easy to follow. MMA is easy to follow. All of these sports have a certain finality to it where it's easy to determine who was the victor and why. Even in MMA or Boxing just by looking at a fight most casual fans know why one fighter one over another. It's not that way in Judo for someone who doesn't participate in Judo. For those matches where there's a lot of grip fighting, attempts at attacks, but no actual throw the casual fan won't understand who really was the better fighter. I don't watch International Judo matches live anymore and the ones that were posted online as soon as I see the video to be approximately ten minutes long I just fast forward to the end to see who was given the victory because I know there wasn't an ippon. I also look at the scoreboard to see if there were any waza-ari. I watch Judo to see the ippon because that's what I care about. If I see waza-ari on the scoreboard I'll fast forward through the match to find it. If I load up a competition where I see the entire video is less than six minutes then I know an ippon was scored at some point. Watching two guys fight for grip isn't interesting to me. Seeing a bunch of attacks that ultimately lead to nothing after ten minutes doesn't interest me. That's akin to someone watching a boxing match and saying, "Wow, did you see that left hook Floyd Mayweather Jr. threw that missed? He threw that left hook at least 15 times! It was sooooo close!"

Now that wrestling is out of the Olympics Judo might want to move more into that direction. Freestyle wrestling was amazing to follow, even though I don't know any of the players I felt some excitement throughout the event. And even moreso, every match was decided by an offensive action of either of the players.

“a couple of men trying to remove each other’s pyjamas by force”.

Made me smile

What about France, Japan, or other countries that typically do well in the olys? Do they have a decent spectator base?

I ask because I think Judo is as easy to follow as many other sports. I'd think membership volume transfers over to more veiwers except when striking is involved.

ah, except for the penalties/rules in judo. Thats a headache to explain.

Q mystic wrote:What about France, Japan, or other countries that typically do well in the olys? Do they have a decent spectator base?

I ask because I think Judo is as easy to follow as many other sports.

Much more complicated than most of others.
As for french situation, easy to evaluate.
This is TIVP, paying spectators (sold out is something around 14k i believe) :

xjej wrote:

Q mystic wrote:What about France, Japan, or other countries that typically do well in the olys? Do they have a decent spectator base?

I ask because I think Judo is as easy to follow as many other sports.

Much more complicated than most of others.
As for french situation, easy to evaluate.
This is TIVP, paying spectators (sold out is something around 14k i believe) :

Actually, that pic strengthens my point. High membership = hi viewers.

Half the girls I knew that watched hockey didn't understand half the rules,(more complicated than judo), but they'd watch anyways and learn as they went along. Most typically watch for the result, not the intracacies.

I believe memberships beyond the teens are what would help judo the most but I don't believe we'll get them with the ijf game of it right now. I think I like the game as it is now, tho.lol

[quote="Q mystic"]

xjej wrote:Actually, that pic strengthens my point. High membership = hi viewers.

Half the girls I knew that watched hockey didn't understand half the rules,(more complicated than judo), but they'd watch anyways and learn as they went along. Most typically watch for the result, not the intracacies.

I believe memberships beyond the teens are what would help judo the most but I don't believe we'll get them with the ijf game of it right now. I think I like the game as it is now, tho.lol

Have to disagree.
It's not about membership but about culture.
In France judo is in the schools since the youngest age. Judo in in TV, french federation started slowly, getting space in the latest hours and now they are live with important competitions.
Grappling and newaza are terrible for those who watch. Easier for them to understand Guernica ( at the point that, on the tv "show" where newaza is pretty common, UFC, they try to avoid any stalling on the groundwork even if in States wrestling is an high practiced sport in schools).
I do love watching judo, sambo or wrestling. I like practicing a bit of bjj. I almost fall asleep watching bjj matches.
To me the mechanic of this situation is pretty complicated at the point that this topic is not even the place where to discuss.
French politics about judo are to me very interesting and I wish my country would be close to their approach but that s not gonna happen, sadly.

Judo needs to divorce itself from the Olympics. Or put in leadership that allows the use of the Goykyo in shiai and is not intimidated by the IOC.

In Canada, Statistics Canada reported that operating revenue for Spectator sporting events was down by 15% since the 2010 winter Olympics. Team sports events such as hockey and baseball and soccer have on the other hand increased by 7.8%. May be it is a cultural aspect or better Entertainment in different season? Now that the IJF has introduced team judo events, maybe things will change...

IF judo is a form of education then the only way to learn it is through practice. No one in his right mind would stand outside a university and look at it and its students then expect to understand the subjects being taught. Judo is a participator activity and wasn't developed to be of value to spectators.

Most people can understand judo and learn judo BUT they have to wear a dogi, find a dojo and have lessons. The is entertainment in judo its for those who practice it though.

Mike

Wait for the flak on this post....OOOOOH

I agree that Judo is or was not meant to be a spectator sport. UFC was developed as spectator sport and the idea, the way it works and its core are to maximize viewers or more accurately maximize viewer £$€. there was (or is still?) another that did well namely WWF (with Hulk Hogan et al.) So fighting in TV does not have to have sport element nor actual fight element to make £$€.

Book reading is not something that exists to maximize TV-audience. Similarly Judo can exist without TV and we try to maximize the number of people participating in it even if we don't try to maximize the TV and advertizing.

If you want to maximize TV and advertizing revenue then why not copy all the rules and outcomes from current WWE. And start calling our Judo as WJE (World Judo Entertainment).

Hanon wrote:IF judo is a form of education then the only way to learn it is through practice. No one in his right mind would stand outside a university and look at it and its students then expect to understand the subjects being taught. Judo is a participator activity and wasn't developed to be of value to spectators.

Most people can understand judo and learn judo BUT they have to wear a dogi, find a dojo and have lessons. The is entertainment in judo its for those who practice it though.

Mike

Wait for the flak on this post....OOOOOH

Never underestimate the IJF though !!

Here are Kanô's ideas re-interpreted by the wisdom of the IJF, for example:

1. You take a giant tatami the size of 4 standard tatami, by preference in ugly crimson red, and in the middle of it you put a Barbie doll in an evening dress showing the necessary amount of female curves, who engages in funky dancing steps, and sings words you can't understand while accompanied by loud blasting disco music in a hall with the acoustics that remind of a hangar in which they assemble large passenger jet.



2. The Barbie doll comes alive, and if you have a telescope or strong enough tele lens you can more or less recognize the shape of her face only to realize that this is no doubt the first time ever she has been on a tatami; the high heels actually already gave that away, since very few judoka wear high heels as standard clothing on a tatami:



3. You turn off the light and lower the podium from the ceiling while putting disco spot lights on and blasting more loud disco music, as if you were watching a bizarre 1960s B-movie interpretation of what a Marsian flying saucer might look like ...





4. The make the medal ceremony a bit like a a scene in a striptease tent, lights off, spot on, more blasting disco music




Now see, what happens then is ... TV cameras which are really near the tatami tape this and such a scene fills the whole image on a TV screen. What do you want more ? Only, barely any TV station broadcasts judo unless one of its nation's athletes scores particularly well, but they will crop everything to a couple of seconds where the scoring occurs.

For the person, the audience which is present in the hall, you are seated at such an enormous distance from the activity, that there is little atmosphere left. The whole event filled with some of the bizarre events listed above make you and everyone else feel completely detaced from what is going. There is no "judo atmosphere", it is extremely sterile, literally "sur-real", but not in a positive or artistic way.

So strange that 50 years ago a small black and white screen, with no disco music or bizarre behavior present was able to create an atmosphere of expectation and commitment when Geesink was to face Kaminaga. Even 33 years ago, still, in Maastricht,sure modern logistics were present, but they were there to serve, not to dominate or distract.

Admit, you've just got to see this yourself, I tell you, it is sooooooooooooooooooo bizarre, more looking like some kind of cabaret !


______________
Note: yes, I got some more pics of the lady in red.

Wow. That was a rather bizzare post.

[quote="xjej"]

Q mystic wrote:

xjej wrote:Actually, that pic strengthens my point. High membership = hi viewers.

Half the girls I knew that watched hockey didn't understand half the rules,(more complicated than judo), but they'd watch anyways and learn as they went along. Most typically watch for the result, not the intracacies.

I believe memberships beyond the teens are what would help judo the most but I don't believe we'll get them with the ijf game of it right now. I think I like the game as it is now, tho.lol

Have to disagree.
It's not about membership but about culture.
In France judo is in the schools since the youngest age. Judo in in TV, french federation started slowly, getting space in the latest hours and now they are live with important competitions.
Grappling and newaza are terrible for those who watch. Easier for them to understand Guernica ( at the point that, on the tv "show" where newaza is pretty common, UFC, they try to avoid any stalling on the groundwork even if in States wrestling is an high practiced sport in schools).
I do love watching judo, sambo or wrestling. I like practicing a bit of bjj. I almost fall asleep watching bjj matches.
To me the mechanic of this situation is pretty complicated at the point that this topic is not even the place where to discuss.
French politics about judo are to me very interesting and I wish my country would be close to their approach but that s not gonna happen, sadly.

I don't see much of a disagreement really. I assume that we are talking about the North American market.

How did France initially get into this culture of judo? From the start? It seems pretty hard to just sell culture just like that w/o some mass pyschology deal. Like combat.

I see BJJ here in Canada and the US. Grappling has never really been a big sell until BJJ gave grappling some decent combat perspective to the masses. At 1st they were joining for exercise with top combat potential, in waves, then it turned into a sport. Now, a lifestyle I think. Seriously. The 'combat' deal, with heavy exercise, always falls away.

I am pretty sure of this... If BJJ replaced Judo in the Olys, I assure that from North America, it would be the most watched combat sport in NA. We should really try to understand this.

Q mystic wrote:
How did France initially get into this culture of judo? From the start?

No. Although France was a relatively early judo country, it wasn't as early as the UK or the US, although it had a pretty active jujutsu exhibition culture before that. France had been successful in international competitions since the early 1950's (cfr. Jean de Herdt, the first European champion) and with Kawaishi had a permanent Japanese high-dan rank on staff, but so did the UK. It also had a quite active market with judo and budo books and magazines. But what really gave the impetus to the explosion in judo activity and interest was Jean-Luc Rougé's 1975 world title in Vienna. Until that point the only people who had really threatened the Japanese hegemony were the two Dutchmen Geesink and Ruska, and a bunch of Russians. However, in those days with the Cold War still going on, nobody identified with or wanted to see Soviet Russians win anyhow, and they all still had an aura of being the "bad guys".

By the way, France also developed an interest in koryû and other gendai budô such as aikidô (André Nocquet), karatedô (Henri Plée), etc. While in itself Kawaishi's presence had not been entirely unique (cfr. Koizumi in the UK, Han Ho Rhi in Swizerland), between the 1950s and 1970s the concentration in Japanese masters in different arts became rather exceptional (Abe Ichirô in the early 1950s for a short time, then Awazu Shôzô, later Michigami Haku, Mochizuki Minoru, the latter who was a multi-style budôka and pupil of Kanô and Ueshiba, and in aikidô Tamura Nobuyoshi). This made France into a center of budô. In the 1970s we spent several summers in France attending summer camps in jûdô and other martial arts, as it was the place to go. These activities were marketed and provided an opportunity to get classes from many famous budôka, which was relatively unique in those days.

As much as I love doing newaza, BJJ matches are just way too boring. It has even less appeal than judo as the viewers have to know even more details before they are able to appreciate it.

Q mystic wrote:
...
I see BJJ here in Canada and the US. Grappling has never really been a big sell until BJJ gave grappling some decent combat perspective to the masses. At 1st they were joining for exercise with top combat potential, in waves, then it turned into a sport. Now, a lifestyle I think. Seriously. The 'combat' deal, with heavy exercise, always falls away.

I am pretty sure of this... If BJJ replaced Judo in the Olys, I assure that from North America, it would be the most watched combat sport in NA. We should really try to understand this.

To be included in olympics one must have
- national associations (has BJJ any)
- that are members of national OC (not in any country?)
- international federation (only one)
- has held legimate world championships for number of years (only one, has BJJ these?)
- has held legitimate national championships (???)
- has women participating in BJJ and have wide membership of women
- have held legimate world championships for number of years for women (never heard)
- have held legitimate national championships for women (????)
- have WADA antidoping policy in practice and test athletes
In short BJJ lacks the sports structure necessary to be included in Olympics. It will require at least 10 years to build this even if BJJ can sort the international federation that controls all BJJ issue. And frankly I'd like to see France, Russia, Georgia, Japan, ... vote to drop Judo for BJJ. There are many countries who medal in Judo. How many would in BJJ?

Note that even karate has failed in these issues.

Hanon wrote:IF judo is a form of education then the only way to learn it is through practice. No one in his right mind would stand outside a university and look at it and its students then expect to understand the subjects being taught. Judo is a participator activity and wasn't developed to be of value to spectators.

Most people can understand judo and learn judo BUT they have to wear a dogi, find a dojo and have lessons. The is entertainment in judo its for those who practice it though.

Mike

Wait for the flak on this post....OOOOOH

Why would you get any flack for this post?

finarashi wrote:

Q mystic wrote:
...
I see BJJ here in Canada and the US. Grappling has never really been a big sell until BJJ gave grappling some decent combat perspective to the masses. At 1st they were joining for exercise with top combat potential, in waves, then it turned into a sport. Now, a lifestyle I think. Seriously. The 'combat' deal, with heavy exercise, always falls away.

I am pretty sure of this... If BJJ replaced Judo in the Olys, I assure that from North America, it would be the most watched combat sport in NA. We should really try to understand this.

To be included in olympics one must have
- national associations (has BJJ any)
- that are members of national OC (not in any country?)
- international federation (only one)
- has held legimate world championships for number of years (only one, has BJJ these?)
- has held legitimate national championships (???)
- has women participating in BJJ and have wide membership of women
- have held legimate world championships for number of years for women (never heard)
- have held legitimate national championships for women (????)
- have WADA antidoping policy in practice and test athletes
In short BJJ lacks the sports structure necessary to be included in Olympics. It will require at least 10 years to build this even if BJJ can sort the international federation that controls all BJJ issue. And frankly I'd like to see France, Russia, Georgia, Japan, ... vote to drop Judo for BJJ. There are many countries who medal in Judo. How many would in BJJ?

Note that even karate has failed in these issues.

I see and for sure. I don't think that BJJ will ever make it into the olys. I just mean that, it seems to me if it were included into the olys then a large amount of North Americans would tune in to watch it, compared to judo. Even though it would be low attack tds and lots of newaza, which the IJF has seemingly deemed non-spectator friendly, I think it would draw alot of viewers due to its high membership.

I understand that North America is a small part of the world but I just find this interesting.