Heirarchy in groundwork

genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.

Dutch Budo wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.

The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).

genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.

rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.

Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...

afulldeck wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.

Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...

Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.

Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...

Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.

One of my degrees is M.Sc. Obviousology...

afulldeck wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.

Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...

Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.

One of my degrees is M.Sc. Obviousology...

You must of graduated aversari obfuscatus?

It wasn't obvious at the time...

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

rjohnston411 wrote:I agree with Ben. Pinning leads to submissions because pinning=control.

Or submission leads to pinning...it all kinda goes together...

Damn, I was hoping to keep that a secret.

One of my degrees is M.Sc. Obviousology...

You must of graduated aversari obfuscatus?

It wasn't obvious at the time...

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Dutch Budo wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.

The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).

I often see what you describe when I "roll" with less experienced BJJ players in Judo or BJJ. They get me in their guard, and get this smug look on their faces like they have accomplished something major. Sometimes I just sit there with good posture and do nothing and stare at them. Then the complaints about how I"m not trying to pass start coming up....LOL.

 This happened to me a lot back before BJJ was as popular as it is now, as well. I tell my Judo students that the full guard is good to recover, but not someplace to just "hang out", especially in context of Judo randori/matches. Some of my judo students cross train in BJJ and get stuck on trying for armbars and triangles from guard, which is not a bad thing (practice is good!), however, I point out that in a Judo match (they all compete regularly), they might want to consider sweeping/reversing to a pin if the sub attempt fails, and not get so hung up on subbing the guy.

Q mystic wrote:
Would Ronda have had such an explosive top control sub game in mma if she had actually learnt bjj some 3 or 4 years ago, before entering mma?

Would Akiyama have his same successful to-top control that he has used in mma if he had cross-trained bjj heavily prior?

If North American and other nations have had a decent style of top control from maybe being somewhat wrestling nations, are we now seeing a substitution of the 'wrestling' aspect of judo for the 'bjj' aspect?

Did somewhat still young at the time, Judoka and 2000 silver Oly medalist Bu-Kyung Jung make the mistake of buying into bjj for his mma career rather than demo his judo concept?

Q mystic wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Dutch Budo wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.

The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).

I often see what you describe when I "roll" with less experienced BJJ players in Judo or BJJ. They get me in their guard, and get this smug look on their faces like they have accomplished something major. Sometimes I just sit there with good posture and do nothing and stare at them. Then the complaints about how I"m not trying to pass start coming up....LOL.

 This happened to me a lot back before BJJ was as popular as it is now, as well. I tell my Judo students that the full guard is good to recover, but not someplace to just "hang out", especially in context of Judo randori/matches. Some of my judo students cross train in BJJ and get stuck on trying for armbars and triangles from guard, which is not a bad thing (practice is good!), however, I point out that in a Judo match (they all compete regularly), they might want to consider sweeping/reversing to a pin if the sub attempt fails, and not get so hung up on subbing the guy.

I've some questions,

Would Ronda have had such an explosive top control sub game in mma if she had actually learnt bjj some 3 or 4 years ago, before entering mma?  Would Akiyama have his same successful to-top control that he has used in mma if he had cross-trained bjj heavily prior? If North American and other nations have had a decent style of top control from maybe being somewhat wrestling nations, are we now seeing a substitution of the 'wrestling' aspect of judo for the 'bjj' aspect?

Did somewhat still young at the time, Judoka and 2000 silver Oly medalist Bu-Kyung Jung make the mistake of buying into bjj for his mma career rather than demo his judo concept?

Q mystic wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Dutch Budo wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:I feel there is deep wisdom in Ben's post.

the hierarchy in ground work, in terms of which positions one should switch into or out of, should be a very personal thing, based on what one is good at.

if you've got a lousy kesa, then you shouldn't hold kesa as superior to kata gatame just because I like kesa more.

for me, guard is where it's at, followed by kesa, followed by kamishiho, followed by everything else. but that's just me.

The guard is a good starting point to get your offensive going from, but it shouldn't be an end position. This is something Ive learnt the hard way. I liked to chill in guard a lot, eventually getting some points scored against me and losing the fight. If you like guard, that's a good thing, but use it to attack and go to a scoring position. Submissions from the guard can work, but at the higher levels they just wont fall for it anymore. How many triangles from the guard do you see at the black belt levels in BJJ? Backmount choke is the number one submission, followed by the armbar from top (mount or side mount).

I often see what you describe when I "roll" with less experienced BJJ players in Judo or BJJ. They get me in their guard, and get this smug look on their faces like they have accomplished something major. Sometimes I just sit there with good posture and do nothing and stare at them. Then the complaints about how I"m not trying to pass start coming up....LOL.

 This happened to me a lot back before BJJ was as popular as it is now, as well. I tell my Judo students that the full guard is good to recover, but not someplace to just "hang out", especially in context of Judo randori/matches. Some of my judo students cross train in BJJ and get stuck on trying for armbars and triangles from guard, which is not a bad thing (practice is good!), however, I point out that in a Judo match (they all compete regularly), they might want to consider sweeping/reversing to a pin if the sub attempt fails, and not get so hung up on subbing the guy.

I've some questions,

Would Ronda have had such an explosive top control sub game in mma if she had actually learnt bjj some 3 or 4 years ago, before entering mma?  Would Akiyama have his same successful to-top control that he has used in mma if he had cross-trained bjj heavily prior? If North American and other nations have had a decent style of top control from maybe being somewhat wrestling nations, are we now seeing a substitution of the 'wrestling' aspect of judo for the 'bjj' aspect?

Did somewhat still young at the time, Judoka and 2000 silver Oly medalist Bu-Kyung Jung make the mistake of buying into bjj for his mma career rather than demo his judo concept?

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

I really don't know. Who says she hasn't learned some BJJ? Or at least "rolled" and trained with BJJists some or even a lot?

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

Akiyama's top control has not been successful at the UFC level at all. He's been subbed, swept and/or easily escaped in every fight where he's thrown people.

hedgehogey wrote:Q Mystic's favorite pin is called the Procrustean Bed.