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    Technique Talk: Dave Camarillo on judo in MMA and the challenge of Ronda Rousey

    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:01 am

    Very good article, covers a lot of talk about Judo in general in relation to fighting

    http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/6/1/4385780/technique-talk-dave-camarillo-judo-mma-ronda-rousey-blueprint-mma-news

    Cheers
    Q mystic
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    Post by Q mystic Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:03 am

    Ricebale wrote:Very good article, covers a lot of talk about Judo in general in relation to fighting

    http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/6/1/4385780/technique-talk-dave-camarillo-judo-mma-ronda-rousey-blueprint-mma-news

    Cheers

    Cheers is right. Very appreciated Rice. I looooooove reading these from judoka.lol In this case judoka/bjjer.

    Of course, just to chirp,lol, he claims wrestling as number 1 for mma but he's a judoka/bjjer. In my experience, albeit not from mmaers, I've heard many judoka/wrestlers or even wrestler/judoka claim judo #1 for combat. Seems to me that Camarillo uses athleticism very vague along with technique. Can we say 'athletically concise' for both there? Seems huge. Or did he mean more specifically taught techniques?

    I like to think he meant that wrestling is thee most concise basic mech but believe that judoka who wrestled heavily(in wrestling) don't believe this. That there are a little too few options for the human being in wrestling.

    Also, with Ronda, he seems to want to teach her more stuff in newaza and throwing maybe. I disagree. Let her just to grapple and figure it out and help her along the way but don't change her and doing bjj type sh*t can or will. Let her sort there with help of a ruff coach. She's complete there already, just needs to adapt somewhat like normal. No need for her to 'think insistance about things'. How do we know this has even helped Jon Fitch? We don't and we haven't seen evidence if Sonnen does fine, for instance. Rhonda should be doing oly boxing. She'll fill in the rest herself..via fighting kickboxers hard at the club.

    Awesome from him once again tho. Very Happy thumbs
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    Post by Ricebale Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:00 am

    I've done a session with Dave and I got him to do his uchi mata on me, the guy is good!

    His style is very hybrid now and there is a big emphasis on scrambling, also sub defence is easier to teach for mma than bjj as a whole. I think that's why he favours wrestling.
    Q mystic
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    Post by Q mystic Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:30 am

    Ricebale wrote:I've done a session with Dave and I got him to do his uchi mata on me, the guy is good!

    His style is very hybrid now and there is a big emphasis on scrambling, also sub defence is easier to teach for mma than bjj as a whole. I think that's why he favours wrestling.

    How, with the scrambling?

    To me it means make osaekomi, to make ever so slightly more means make pin. In judo, I scrambled for quarter. In wrestling I had to scramble for half. Should result in no scramble.

    It seems he should favor judo over wrestling for the sub d part.

    Unless he is focused on taking back and tightening the subs for the jisincase.lol

    How tho with the scrambling?
    Freelancer
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    Post by Freelancer Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:00 am

    He seems puzzled by the quality of Ronda's ground game. As if the never saw Adams or Kashiwazaki, or other judo ground specialists. Neutral
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    Post by Q mystic Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:21 am

    Freelancer wrote:He seems puzzled by the quality of Ronda's ground game. As if the never saw Adams or Kashiwazaki, or other judo ground specialists. Neutral

    Precisely.lol


    Last edited by Q mystic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total
    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:30 am

    Q mystic wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:I've done a session with Dave and I got him to do his uchi mata on me, the guy is good!

    His style is very hybrid now and there is a big emphasis on scrambling, also sub defence is easier to teach for mma than bjj as a whole. I think that's why he favours wrestling.

    How, with the scrambling?

    To me it means make osaekomi, to make ever so slightly more means make pin. In judo, I scrambled for quarter. In wrestling I had to scramble for half. Should result in no scramble.

    It seems he should favor judo over wrestling for the sub d part.

    Unless he is focused on taking back and tightening the subs for the jisincase.lol

    How tho with the scrambling?

    We have different meanings, in wrestling I use the term for meaning to make explosive and dynamic movement in competition with your opponent to escape position.
    Q mystic
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    Post by Q mystic Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:33 am

    Ricebale wrote:
    Q mystic wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:I've done a session with Dave and I got him to do his uchi mata on me, the guy is good!

    His style is very hybrid now and there is a big emphasis on scrambling, also sub defence is easier to teach for mma than bjj as a whole. I think that's why he favours wrestling.

    How, with the scrambling?

    To me it means make osaekomi, to make ever so slightly more means make pin. In judo, I scrambled for quarter. In wrestling I had to scramble for half. Should result in no scramble.

    It seems he should favor judo over wrestling for the sub d part.

    Unless he is focused on taking back and tightening the subs for the jisincase.lol

    How tho with the scrambling?

    We have different meanings, in wrestling I use the term for meaning to make explosive and dynamic movement in competition with your opponent to escape position.

    escape? touchélol. Our 1st primal spaz was getting the hell outta seemingly near kesa.lol Which meant death.
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:48 am

    Freelancer wrote:He seems puzzled by the quality of Ronda's ground game. As if the never saw Adams or Kashiwazaki, or other judo ground specialists. Neutral

    Could it be that he was coming from somewhere else ?

    I mean, most experienced jûdôka can usually name a list of jûdôka who are called "newaza specialists". But ... they are all male. A little more than half of them went to newaza after some knee injury or something, and a really small percentage is simply extraordinary in tachi- and newaza at the same time, but ... they are typically all men.

    I've trained in many, many places, and I really would have to think if someone would ask me "name one female newaza specialist". I know of females who regularly won on the ground, but not so much because they were newaza specialist, but because they simply were overall much better jûdôka than there opponent, and they could have basically defeated their opponent with half a dozen of techiques, standing, but just happened to finish them off on the ground. But the kind of real newaza specialist like you have in males, where I have known even some who would intentionally have themselves being thrown for kôka of yûkô so that they could then bring in their newaza game, and they would finish the guy off. That kind of things is really rare in women. I mean not women who have specialized in this or that armbar, but womens who can easily shake out of their sleeve a small battery or turn-overs, defenses, combinations, kaeshi-waza. There is a big difference between katame-waza and newaza, and I have known several with a few excellent katame-waza, but I certainly would not call any of them newaza-specialists. Could it be that the person in the interview was having something similar in mind ?
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    Post by Q mystic Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:58 am

    edit.


    Last edited by Q mystic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total
    nomoremondays
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    Post by nomoremondays Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:37 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:I mean, most experienced jûdôka can usually name a list of jûdôka who are called "newaza specialists". But ... they are all male. A little more than half of them went to newaza after some knee injury or something, and a really small percentage is simply extraordinary in tachi- and newaza at the same time, but ... they are typically all men.

    I've trained in many, many places, and I really would have to think if someone would ask me "name one female newaza specialist". I know of females who regularly won on the ground, but not so much because they were newaza specialist, but because they simply were overall much better jûdôka than there opponent, and they could have basically defeated their opponent with half a dozen of techiques, standing, but just happened to finish them off on the ground. But the kind of real newaza specialist like you have in males, where I have known even some who would intentionally have themselves being thrown for kôka of yûkô so that they could then bring in their newaza game, and they would finish the guy off. That kind of things is really rare in women. I mean not women who have specialized in this or that armbar, but womens who can easily shake out of their sleeve a small battery or turn-overs, defenses, combinations, kaeshi-waza. There is a big difference between katame-waza and newaza, and I have known several with a few excellent katame-waza, but I certainly would not call any of them newaza-specialists.

    Kaori Matsumoto??

    She would probably be in that category very soon, no?
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:59 pm

    nomoremondays wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:I mean, most experienced jûdôka can usually name a list of jûdôka who are called "newaza specialists". But ... they are all male. A little more than half of them went to newaza after some knee injury or something, and a really small percentage is simply extraordinary in tachi- and newaza at the same time, but ... they are typically all men.

    I've trained in many, many places, and I really would have to think if someone would ask me "name one female newaza specialist". I know of females who regularly won on the ground, but not so much because they were newaza specialist, but because they simply were overall much better jûdôka than there opponent, and they could have basically defeated their opponent with half a dozen of techiques, standing, but just happened to finish them off on the ground. But the kind of real newaza specialist like you have in males, where I have known even some who would intentionally have themselves being thrown for kôka of yûkô so that they could then bring in their newaza game, and they would finish the guy off. That kind of things is really rare in women. I mean not women who have specialized in this or that armbar, but womens who can easily shake out of their sleeve a small battery or turn-overs, defenses, combinations, kaeshi-waza. There is a big difference between katame-waza and newaza, and I have known several with a few excellent katame-waza, but I certainly would not call any of them newaza-specialists.

    Kaori Matsumoto??

    She would probably be in that category very soon, no?

    Probably. She seems to be a pretty all-round jûdôka with also some decent tachi-waza. I just wanted to point out that it is not very common. The names do not even have to be famous. It may well be that someone knows some female sensei in a club somewhere who has retired from the competitive circuit or never even fought in the international circuit who may be a true newaza specialist, I do not know. I've never seen a single one during the days I was living in Japan, but admittedly, those were different days. We were not allowed to fight Japanese females, and no doubt women's jûdô has evolved since with players being less heterogenic. In those days, there were often just a handful of women, mostly European, who were sticking head and shoulders out above the rest, and their jûdô was invariably tachi-waza-oriented.
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    Post by nomoremondays Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:15 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Probably. She seems to be a pretty all-round jûdôka with also some decent tachi-waza. I just wanted to point out that it is not very common. The names do not even have to be famous. It may well be that someone knows some female sensei in a club somewhere who has retired from the competitive circuit or never even fought in the international circuit who may be a true newaza specialist, I do not know. I've never seen a single one during the days I was living in Japan, but admittedly, those were different days. We were not allowed to fight Japanese females, and no doubt women's jûdô has evolved since with players being less heterogenic. In those days, there were often just a handful of women, mostly European, who were sticking head and shoulders out above the rest, and their jûdô was invariably tachi-waza-oriented.

    ah, on a relative basis. Sure thing. Maybe its a psychological thing also at play there. Possibly one of the ladies could comment on that.
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:30 pm

    nomoremondays wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Probably. She seems to be a pretty all-round jûdôka with also some decent tachi-waza. I just wanted to point out that it is not very common. The names do not even have to be famous. It may well be that someone knows some female sensei in a club somewhere who has retired from the competitive circuit or never even fought in the international circuit who may be a true newaza specialist, I do not know. I've never seen a single one during the days I was living in Japan, but admittedly, those were different days. We were not allowed to fight Japanese females, and no doubt women's jûdô has evolved since with players being less heterogenic. In those days, there were often just a handful of women, mostly European, who were sticking head and shoulders out above the rest, and their jûdô was invariably tachi-waza-oriented.

    ah, on a relative basis. Sure thing. Maybe its a psychological thing also at play there. Possibly one of the ladies could comment on that.

    In the 1970s and 1980s there were a number of international elite players whose tachi-waza was technically outstanding. I am thinking of the Austrian girls Winklbauer, Hrovath, some French, Belgian, Dutch, British and German women. It was very difficult for them to train in their own countries because they stuck head and shoulders out above the other women in their countries. So, they trained with males. Some where so good that if you were a male who weighed 20 kg more and a 2nd kyû or 1st kyû or 1st dan and not an elite player they could wipe the floor with you. However, none of them had a newaza game that was at the same level and the same males they would throw from left to right could typically hold up against them in newaza. Mostly those females excelled by having the speed of an elite level player also in newaza, so they could literally 'surprise' a male non-elite player and had obviously the strategic insight of an elite player by more quickly seeing openings. So, I remember sometimes getting caught by them in an armbar or a choke, but I can't remember any of them actually being able in the end to enforce submission with them. That probably also has other reasons, including one I have commented about many times before in this (and the previous) forum, namely that in my view the factor force is more difficult to overcome in newaza than in tachi-waza, one of the reasons probably that the effect of kuzushi has far more dramatic consequences in tachi-waza than in newaza. The other thing that struck me was the pliability and suppleness of those females. You could fold and bend them in all kinds of ways, so often a foot or leg would pop up where you did not expect it, and the best could still catch you from an angle you probably couldn't. But that wasn't really what I would call "newaza skill", but more simply applying the advantages of their specific build and anatomical abilities. I have never ever seen the female equivalent of a Kashiwazaki or Flavio Canto, never. And if you take the very best female jûdô technicians, someone like Tamura Ryoko, fast, insight, but even she did not have that kind of game in newaza. Also the plethora of techniques they use in newaza is typically far less than in males. You'll rather find them specializing in one armbar, often jûji-gatame, and optimally applying their anatomical abilities (pliability) so that they are able to succeed that armbar from many different angles, or are able to twist and turn and end up in that armbard. There seems even to be an outspoken preference for certain techniques, espec. jûji-gatame, yet only extremely rarely something like ude-gatame, hara-gatame, te-gatame, whereas a guy like Canto and Kashiwazaki or Komurô basically use a whole pallet of katame-waza depending on what their twists and turns and build and ability of the opponent provoke. I would imagine that some of these differences also have to do with traditional gender-roles. I haven't seen an actual study of it, but it seems to me that the newaza game of women is distinctively different from that of men in jûdô. For example, several superb male newaza-specialists I've known aggressively make use of their head for control. They actually will push their face against your chest gliding it into control, sometimes slowly gliding like a snake. Women in newaza seem to far more rely on the element of surprise, and try to quickly grab something they, instead of slowly building up. Another thing you see in male top-newaza players is that they do not at all always consider not lying on top as a disadvantage. They may choke, you armbar you while you are on top, or they may be slowly work their way out. In women there seems to be more a perception on finding the position under as something highly uncomfortable they immediately want to get out from, even more so in randori with the opposite gender. Oftentimes you get the impression that from the moment they are out of it, there is a perception of having achieved the result, whereas for male top-newaza players such positions seem to far more represent a mere transient phase of the whole newaza game.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by nomoremondays Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:01 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:(...) I would imagine that some of these differences also have to do with traditional gender-roles. I haven't seen an actual study of it, but it seems to me that the newaza game of women is distinctively different from that of men in jûdô. For example, several superb male newaza-specialists I've known aggressively make use of their head for control. They actually will push their face against your chest gliding it into control, sometimes slowly gliding like a snake. Women in newaza seem to far more rely on the element of surprise, and try to quickly grab something they, instead of slowly building up. Another thing you see in male top-newaza players is that they do not at all always consider not lying on top as a disadvantage. They may choke, you armbar you while you are on top, or they may be slowly work their way out. In women there seems to be more a perception on finding the position under as something highly uncomfortable they immediately want to get out from, even more so in randori with the opposite gender. Oftentimes you get the impression that from the moment they are out of it, there is a perception of having achieved the result, whereas for male top-newaza players such positions seem to far more represent a mere transient phase of the whole newaza game.

    Yes, besides the use of the head and using it to attain leverage by sticking it in various parts of uke's body, the other thing I have noticed is that a big aspect of the 'playing from the bottom' part of newaza is something that almost requires one to haul and load his partner onto himself after controlling him, and then achieving a turnover or finish. This aspect is something I have noticed that females are not naturally comfortable with, especially with males. And unfortunately, like you mentioned, the best females have gotten good by primarily working out with males.

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    Post by Ricebale Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:15 am

    http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/6/2/4389286/ufc-ronda-rousey-mother-dave-camarillo-ground

    It appears not everyone agrees with Mr Camerillo Smile
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    Post by afulldeck Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:09 am

    Ricebale wrote:http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/6/2/4389286/ufc-ronda-rousey-mother-dave-camarillo-ground

    It appears not everyone agrees with Mr Camerillo Smile

    And that is a good thing. How many arms does a judoka need to take before they are considered elite?
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    Post by Q mystic Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:33 am

    Ricebale wrote:http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/6/2/4389286/ufc-ronda-rousey-mother-dave-camarillo-ground

    It appears not everyone agrees with Mr Camerillo Smile

    Yeah, but whether agreed or not I still give a big ups to Mr. Camarillo just because when he goes so public about styles in mma he knows is going to take abuse and he did it anyway.

    That said,lol, he says wrestlers have the advantage because the judoka will have to learn to defend a wrestlers tds, but doesn't 'seem' to consider the lack of sub d on a wrestler.

    ^ and I mean, then we have others not giving much of a care about the td....

    So Strange.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzeNAUOp17c
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    Post by Q mystic Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:58 am

    dayum. I did the wrong vid (same song) on 'strange'...lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_rhnHpRSXQ
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:38 am

    That was a very insightful discussion/interview with/by Dave. He has turned into a very good and insightful coach/teacher over the years since he first got started in BJJ.
    I say that not as an expert on MMA, but as someone who has worked hard at improving my coaching/teaching skills over many years.

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