Why this diet?

Today there was an article on Andy Murry's (a tennis player) diet. What I can't understand why he is having "Ninety minutes before his match...... a plateful of chicken and rice, loaded with energy-delivering protein"
 
I know tennis is a little different to judo but I thought you should not have proteins just before a competition but rather carbohydrates and not 90 minutes before but about three hours before, and then just snack on fruit and energy bars if necessary. Anyone have any thoughts?
 
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/andymurray/10159973/Andy-Murrays-appliance-of-science.html
 
"There has never been a sportsman who has been as meticulously assembled as Andy Murray. Allied to his extraordinary natural skill and ferocious desire to win, what has carried him to his fifth successive Wimbledon semi-final is the relentless appliance of science. There is nothing in his life that is left to chance, nothing that is not measured, calibrated and balanced. This is a man whose route to the summit of his profession has been mapped with a meticulousness bordering on the obsessive.
 
Take his diet. He will have started eating at 7.30 this morning. While many of those arriving at Wimbledon’s press restaurant will have begun their day assaulting a tottering Himalaya of fried starch, Murray will have eaten yogurt, fruit and a bagel smeared in peanut butter.
 
On his way to the All England Club he will have nibbled at a protein bar and a banana. He has not always got on with bananas, incidentally. In his autobiography he described them as “pathetic fruit”. But his nutritionist recommended them as a means to deliver potassium to the system, essential to maintaining cardiovascular health. So he overcame his disdain and now eats lots of them. No longer does he describe anything as pathetic if it can help him win.
 
Ninety minutes before his match he will have a plateful of chicken and rice, loaded with energy-delivering protein. Then, afterwards, there will be the sushi: he eats up to 50 pieces a day. He was eating some on Wednesday evening as he spoke to the press after his quarter-final victory over Fernando Verdasco. The mix of protein and carbohydrate without a hint of fat is reckoned the perfect way to replenish physical resources after an intense physical workout. So much of the stuff does he consume that he may be single-handedly responsible for the diminution of the world’s tuna stocks."

Tennis is an endurance sport where matches can last many hours, not a five minute sprint split into twenty second bursts, the requirements obviously are going to be different. This article is marketing hype, but the references at the bottom have a bunch of suggestive studies about protein for endurance exercise: http://www.ultramarathonman.com/newsletter/Supreme_Protein_Endurance.pdf

samsmith2424 wrote:Today there was an article on Andy Murry's (a tennis player) diet. What I can't understand why he is having "Ninety minutes before his match...... a plateful of chicken and rice, loaded with energy-delivering protein"
 
I know tennis is a little different to judo but I thought you should not have proteins just before a competition but rather carbohydrates and not 90 minutes before but about three hours before, and then just snack on fruit and energy bars if necessary. Anyone have any thoughts?
 
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/andymurray/10159973/Andy-Murrays-appliance-of-science.html
 
"There has never been a sportsman who has been as meticulously assembled as Andy Murray. Allied to his extraordinary natural skill and ferocious desire to win, what has carried him to his fifth successive Wimbledon semi-final is the relentless appliance of science. There is nothing in his life that is left to chance, nothing that is not measured, calibrated and balanced. This is a man whose route to the summit of his profession has been mapped with a meticulousness bordering on the obsessive.
 
Take his diet. He will have started eating at 7.30 this morning. While many of those arriving at Wimbledon’s press restaurant will have begun their day assaulting a tottering Himalaya of fried starch, Murray will have eaten yogurt, fruit and a bagel smeared in peanut butter.
 
On his way to the All England Club he will have nibbled at a protein bar and a banana. He has not always got on with bananas, incidentally. In his autobiography he described them as “pathetic fruit”. But his nutritionist recommended them as a means to deliver potassium to the system, essential to maintaining cardiovascular health. So he overcame his disdain and now eats lots of them. No longer does he describe anything as pathetic if it can help him win.
 
Ninety minutes before his match he will have a plateful of chicken and rice, loaded with energy-delivering protein. Then, afterwards, there will be the sushi: he eats up to 50 pieces a day. He was eating some on Wednesday evening as he spoke to the press after his quarter-final victory over Fernando Verdasco. The mix of protein and carbohydrate without a hint of fat is reckoned the perfect way to replenish physical resources after an intense physical workout. So much of the stuff does he consume that he may be single-handedly responsible for the diminution of the world’s tuna stocks."

This is a good question.

The short answer is that it suggests that scientists have been involved in providing him with advice. The long answer is ... well ... longer, obviously.

In Physiology for Dummies it basically says that energy for long duration is derived from fat, and energy for short duration exercise from carbs. That is, however, a simplification. Imagine you run a 400 m at fast pace, and let's say it takes you 1 minute to do so, which is not unreasonable if you're not an elite sprinter. According to the theory, your exercise is anaerobic, more precisely lactic anaerobic, and you will derive your energy from carbs while producing lactate, right ?

Where do the muscles get this energy from carbs come from ? It comes primarily from the glucose circulating in your blood and muscle, which obviously is limited. It is regulated by insulin, glucagon with also an important role for catecholamines. As blood glucose rapidly starts going down metabolic pathways cause a second substance, namely glucose in its stored form, which is called glycogen to be converted back to its useable form glucose, this is what is called glycolysis. Some of this glycogen is stored in the muscle, but in a limited form, whereas the rest is stored in the liver. And of course, also lactic acid that has been produced can be converted back into energy by the liver, through a first form of gluconeogenesis through a scientific process called the Cori cycle.

Now, imagine you do not eat for 3 days, but every day you go do exercise, and run 400 m. Your glucose and glycogen derived from carbs will become completely depleted. No doubt you will feel weaker and weaker, but on day 400 are you totally unable to run your 400 m. No, you still can, even though you will struggle and your time probably won't be your best. So, how is it possible to still get this energy in the for of glucose, when clearly your glucose and glycogen were depleted by exercise the previous days and have not been replenished by new carbs since you did not eat ?

This is possible because there is, of course, a third form of energy, namely protein. In our body, the protein is physically present in the form of amino acids and in the form of muscles. Under influence of the body's cortisol production, which is a "glucocorticoid" (see the word 'gluco' in there), muscles/protein are broken down into amino acids and through a second form of gluconeogenesis (= production of new glucose) through a scientific process called the "Glucose alanine cycle" sent to the liver which is able to produce glucose from them. In this way, protein thus does not simply serve the function of building up muscle but a role of energy provision.

The question that arises from this knowledge is whether it is possible in an athlete to without complete starvation to make use of proteins for energy in this way adding them as extra energy on top or your normal glucose and glycogen. It obviously is possible through pre-starving your body, but this process is somewhat dangerous since your body controls exactly when and to what extent and from exactly where it will use muscle protein for glucose. In more clear terms, using muscle protein implies breaking down your muscle or acute putting you at risk for pulled or torn muscles due to weakening. This is a high price to pay, and particularly risky in a contact sport where you are not in full control of your next movements. Thus alternative ways are sought to use protein from your diet for energy without having to pre-starve your body.

We already have known since half of the the 1980s that the optimal way to absorb your dietary carbs or your dietary proteins for muscle development is to ingest them as soon as possible after cessation of your exercise or generally no longer than 30 minutes after cessation of exercise. For this purpose, but also for the purpose of maximal recovery from the exercise you have just done science has been suggesting that optimally one should also add dietary protein BEFORE the exercise. This is a shift from the view of the 1980s that entirely focuses on carbs as pre-exercise dietary needs. In other words, Murray is up to date.

So basically, kind of summarizing ... there is a lot of evidence that suggests that consuming protein with carbohydrates before exercise is linked with a greater nitrogen balance, a greater strength and an improvement of the fat free mass-fat mass ratio.

Before starting to do this yourself, there is one caveat though. Be aware that proteins are far harder to digest than carbs. They generate the highest response of stomach acid in order to break down the amino acids, so basically if you're not careful you might be overloading your stomach in such a way that you have a subject feeling of a full stomach much longer which might interfere with your performance too. Imagine the typical Thanksgiving dinner ! This overload effect is usually less with engineered protein supplements or poultry such as chicken than when consuming something like steak.

There is also a second caveat, which is a bit more hardcore science, but basically it boils down to the generation of glucose (gluconeogenesis form 2) from protein through the alanine cycle being more slowly and less effective than simply glycolysis or than gluconeogenesis form 1 (from lactate through the Cori cycle.

But all in all the real conclusion of this is something I have been saying for many years ... unlike in judo people are not averse to science in other sports where clearly advancements are largely due to advances in sciences, whereas training in judo pretty much is the same nonsense as 50 years ago: just train harder and more, instead of more effective. As long as judo federations keep appointing national coaches and performance directors on the simple basis that they won an important title or medal here or there, this won't change ! And then they wonder why their country is not doing any better during these contests. But just try to make that clear to them.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

samsmith2424 wrote:Today there was an article on Andy Murry's (a tennis player) diet. What I can't understand why he is having "Ninety minutes before his match...... a plateful of chicken and rice, loaded with energy-delivering protein"
 
I know tennis is a little different to judo but I thought you should not have proteins just before a competition but rather carbohydrates and not 90 minutes before but about three hours before, and then just snack on fruit and energy bars if necessary. Anyone have any thoughts?
 
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/andymurray/10159973/Andy-Murrays-appliance-of-science.html
 
"There has never been a sportsman who has been as meticulously assembled as Andy Murray. Allied to his extraordinary natural skill and ferocious desire to win, what has carried him to his fifth successive Wimbledon semi-final is the relentless appliance of science. There is nothing in his life that is left to chance, nothing that is not measured, calibrated and balanced. This is a man whose route to the summit of his profession has been mapped with a meticulousness bordering on the obsessive.
 
Take his diet. He will have started eating at 7.30 this morning. While many of those arriving at Wimbledon’s press restaurant will have begun their day assaulting a tottering Himalaya of fried starch, Murray will have eaten yogurt, fruit and a bagel smeared in peanut butter.
 
On his way to the All England Club he will have nibbled at a protein bar and a banana. He has not always got on with bananas, incidentally. In his autobiography he described them as “pathetic fruit”. But his nutritionist recommended them as a means to deliver potassium to the system, essential to maintaining cardiovascular health. So he overcame his disdain and now eats lots of them. No longer does he describe anything as pathetic if it can help him win.
 
Ninety minutes before his match he will have a plateful of chicken and rice, loaded with energy-delivering protein. Then, afterwards, there will be the sushi: he eats up to 50 pieces a day. He was eating some on Wednesday evening as he spoke to the press after his quarter-final victory over Fernando Verdasco. The mix of protein and carbohydrate without a hint of fat is reckoned the perfect way to replenish physical resources after an intense physical workout. So much of the stuff does he consume that he may be single-handedly responsible for the diminution of the world’s tuna stocks."

This is a good question.

The short answer is that it suggests that scientists have been involved in providing him with advice. The long answer is ... well ... longer, obviously.

In Physiology for Dummies it basically says that energy for long duration is derived from fat, and energy for short duration exercise from carbs. That is, however, a simplification. Imagine you run a 400 m at fast pace, and let's say it takes you 1 minute to do so, which is not unreasonable if you're not an elite sprinter. According to the theory, your exercise is anaerobic, more precisely lactic anaerobic, and you will derive your energy from carbs while producing lactate, right ?

Where do the muscles get this energy from carbs come from ?  It comes primarily from the glucose circulating in your blood and muscle, which obviously is limited. It is regulated by insulin, glucagon with also an important role for catecholamines. As blood glucose rapidly starts going down metabolic pathways cause a second substance, namely glucose in its stored form, which is called glycogen to be converted back to its useable form glucose, this is what is called glycolysis. Some of  this glycogen is stored in the muscle, but in a limited form, whereas the rest is stored in the liver. And of course, also lactic acid that has been produced can be converted back into energy by the liver, through a first form of gluconeogenesis through a scientific process called the Cori cycle.

Now, imagine you do not eat for 3 days, but every day you go do exercise, and run 400 m. Your glucose and glycogen derived from carbs will become completely depleted. No doubt you will feel weaker and weaker, but on day 400  are you totally unable to run your 400 m. No, you still can, even though you will struggle and your time probably won't be your best. So, how is it possible to still get this energy in the for of glucose, when clearly your glucose and glycogen were depleted by exercise the previous days and have not been replenished by new carbs since you did not eat ?

This is possible because there is, of course, a third form of energy, namely protein. In our body, the protein is physically present in the form of amino acids and in the form of muscles. Under influence of the body's cortisol production, which is a "glucocorticoid" (see the word 'gluco' in there), muscles/protein are broken down into amino acids and through a second form of gluconeogenesis (= production of new glucose) through a scientific process called the "Glucose alanine cycle" sent to the liver which is able to produce glucose from them. In this way, protein thus does not simply serve the function of building up muscle but a role of energy provision.

The question that arises from this knowledge is whether it is possible in an athlete to without complete starvation to make use of proteins for energy in this way adding them as extra energy on top or your normal glucose and glycogen. It obviously is possible through pre-starving your body, but this process is somewhat dangerous since your body controls exactly when and to what extent and from exactly where it will use muscle protein for glucose. In more clear terms, using muscle protein implies breaking down your muscle or acute putting you at risk for pulled or torn muscles due to weakening. This is a high price to pay, and particularly risky in a contact sport where you are not in full control of your next movements. Thus alternative ways are sought to use protein from your diet for energy without having to pre-starve your body.

We already have known since half of the the 1980s that the optimal way to absorb your dietary carbs or your dietary proteins for muscle development is to ingest them as soon as possible after cessation of your exercise or generally no longer than 30 minutes after cessation of exercise.  For this purpose, but also for the purpose of maximal recovery from the exercise you have just done science has been suggesting that optimally one should also add dietary protein BEFORE the exercise. This is a shift from the view of the 1980s that entirely focuses on carbs as pre-exercise dietary needs. In other words, Murray is up to date.

So basically, kind of summarizing ... there is a lot of evidence that suggests that consuming protein with carbohydrates before exercise is linked with a greater nitrogen balance, a greater strength and an improvement of the fat free mass-fat mass ratio.

Before starting to do this yourself, there is one caveat though. Be aware that proteins are far harder to digest than carbs. They generate the highest response of stomach acid in order to break down the amino acids, so basically if you're not careful you might be overloading your stomach in such a way that you have a subject feeling of a full stomach much longer which might interfere with your performance too. Imagine the typical Thanksgiving dinner !  This overload effect is usually less with engineered protein supplements or poultry such as chicken than when consuming something like steak.

There is also a second caveat, which is a bit more hardcore science, but basically it boils down to the generation of glucose (gluconeogenesis form 2) from protein through the alanine cycle being more slowly and less effective than simply glycolysis or than gluconeogenesis form 1 (from lactate through the Cori cycle.

But all in all the real conclusion of this is something I have been saying for many years ... unlike in judo people are not averse to science in other sports where clearly advancements are largely due to advances in sciences, whereas training in judo pretty much is the same nonsense as 50 years ago: just train harder and more, instead of more effective. As long as judo federations keep appointing national coaches and performance directors on the simple basis that they won an important title or medal here or there, this won't change !  And then they wonder why their country is not doing any better during these contests. But just try to make that clear to them.

CK, in the idea situation, what would suggest the diet science would tell a standard judo for optimum health and achieving weight?

[quote="afulldeck
CK, in the idea situation, what would suggest the diet science would tell a standard judo for optimum health and achieving weight?[/quote]

This is a different question to the one I asked.

My question refers to diet on the day of the competition.

Your question is very general and there isn't a standard judo player. Also there are two different parts of your question- optimum health and achieving weight on the day of the competition.

I would like to suggest you make a new topic and decide clearly what you asking.

Phrased my question badly, sorry about that. That said, I'm pushing the same point, but from a different perspective (more below) while focusing on CK's last paragraph vis-a-vie judo being averse to diet science. I should have asked "....what would be the more appropriate scientifically based diet for judoka generally...."

Perspective: I've been told by sports nutritionists (more than a few) that diet the day of competition for most sports (with a short list of notable exceptions like ultra marathons, ultra swimming and bodybuilding etc) should be for the part not be any different than your normal eating habits.

afulldeck wrote:Phrased my question badly, sorry about that. That said, I'm pushing the same point, but from a different perspective (more below) while focusing on CK's last paragraph vis-a-vie judo being averse to diet science. I should have asked "....what would be the more appropriate scientifically based diet for judoka generally...."

Perspective: I've been told by sports nutritionists (more than a few) that diet the day of competition for most sports (with a short list of notable exceptions like ultra marathons, ultra swimming and bodybuilding etc)  should be for the part not be any different than your normal eating habits.

I cannot answer the question, and I cannot imagine anyone can, at least not with a lot of accuracy as there are far too many factors in judo. Although judo exhibits some similarities to tennis (both endurance and regular acceleration controlled partly by the opponent), there are also some critical differences, namely:

1. judo has weightclasses, which forces you to minimize, sometimes 'critically' minimize body fat in all categories except heavy weights.
2. world tennis is almost entirely a Caucasian affair while judo is largely a Caucasian/Asian affair, and thus the ethnic distribution and particular physiological properties are different.
3. the preponderance of physical strength is greater in judo. There are not too many cases where similar to someone like Justine Henin defeating a much more powerful player such as Serena Williams.
4.The physiological requirements of judo depend partly on the type of judo you play and impose. In theory that is in tennis too, but in judo you could decide to play very slow, strong-arm judo; you can usually not do that in tennis. you can refuse to go to the net and choose for long rallies, but still it is different. Very physically strong judoka with pretty louse judo regularly win medals, but very few tennis players with lousy tennis skills win tennis tournaments. In addition the physiological characteristics of heavy weights are totally different in judo than those of other weight classes. Such different does not exist in tennis.
5. There is a greater freedom in tennis to manipulate time. You can throw away your rocket, pretend to fall, have medical interventions, play with the ball and apply all kinds of other antics just to win time. Unlike IJF judo, tennis is not overregulated.
6. The threat of severe injury from contact is far less in tennis than in judo.

The spread and diversity of the above factors make it impossible to make a scientifically justified general recommendation for judo. It can be done individually if one takes all these factors into account and some additional ones as well, such as type of cross-training the judoka does.

The statement from the nutritonist(s) you are referring to is similar to one of those "I have heard you've stopped beating your wife, is that true ?" kind of statements. If the statement is taken for granted, then it means that if every day you eat donuts and lots of other unhealthy food that such is the best to prepare a competition too. Alternatively, there is merit to the fact that suddenly preceding competition changing to something you are not use to could result in unpredictable consequences such as an upset stomach, or worse. Dietary things are fare more complicated than many people are willing to admit. It isn't because diet X has a certain effect in individual A that it will have a similar effect in individual B. Secondly, virtually all people discussing diet make a gigantic mistake in that they consider the diet before or when it goes into your mouth. However, that is 'ingestion', and ingestion is something completely different from absorption. One needs to consider absorption before being able to consider effects of diet. And the absorption of the same diet is different between individual and is also a function of your activity, training and combination of food. The body may need to be 'primed' in order to achieve a certain desired absorption. It's only after proper absorption that the issue of effect of diet can be considered. This is of a totally different level than the 'ingestion' of diet which unfortunately is where most people discussing diet stop.

Cichorei Kano wrote:Dietary things are fare more complicated than many people are willing to admit. It isn't because diet X has a certain effect in individual A that it will have a similar effect in individual B.

I know from personal experience/experimentation that is true. A large number of years ago, more than I would like to admit, a friend of mine and I decided to do an experiment. We had the same starting weight, nearly the same height/bone structure, same training regime, very similar genetic background, and similar but not exactly the same strength profile, and we forced ourselves to follow the exact same diet. At the end of our 3 month experiment changes in our measure health markers were significantly different, and our physical changes diverged significantly. That said, we could not figure how to guide ourselves or others (as amateur coach's) for better outcomes. I would have figure in the last couple of decades we could have a better methods than spending thousands of dollars or doing crap shoots.

Cichorei Kano wrote:Secondly, virtually all people discussing diet make a gigantic mistake in that they consider the diet before or when it goes into your mouth. However, that is 'ingestion', and ingestion is something completely different from absorption. One needs to consider absorption before being able to consider effects of diet. And the absorption of the same diet is different between individual and is also a function of your activity, training and combination of food. The body may need to be 'primed' in order to achieve a certain desired absorption. It's only after proper absorption that the issue of effect of diet can be considered. This is of a totally different level than the 'ingestion' of diet which unfortunately is where most people discussing diet stop.

So the question is what can an amateur coach do to help his team using this knowledge? Its impractical to tell our future stars of the sport, at least in many locations, to search for key scientist that may be thousands of miles away....
Surely, without spending thousands of dollars we can as amateur coaches help people move in more appropriate directions.

afulldeck wrote:
So the question is what can an amateur coach do to help his team using this knowledge? Its impractical to tell our future stars of the sport, at least in many locations, to search for key scientist that may be thousands of miles away....
Surely, without spending thousands of dollars we can as amateur coaches help people move in more appropriate directions.

That is true, but it becomes different to offer you IN A GENERAL WAY things that amount to more than clichés. For example, I can say with certainty that your judo performance is probably not going to improve if you change your diet in consuming mostly pure lard. But ... you don't really need me for that. Everyone could have said that, and the same recommendation would also apply to tennis performance.

I think that an honest, but still GENERALIZED (and therefore not super-helpful) recommendation is: eat healthy, but make sure that healthy food also delivers enough energy and that you can digest it. Adapt your diet in combination with physical exercise in such a way that helps maintaining a fat level that is both health and that you can maintain without doing crazy things. Try to analyze if you are particularly prone to certain injuries or certain weaknesses in your performance, and see if there are a number of dietary factor that may play a role in mediating these. Is there a combination of dietary factors that as a group you might wish to adapt in order to respond to the results of that analysis. For the rest, effects will be limited, at least acutely, unless they are boosted by the application of very specific training or by illegal drugs. There is no doubt that the use of anabolic steroids and growth hormone makes the use of a high-protein diet far more effective since they will increase its absorption and change the body's nitrogen balance. Specfiic training can in a legal way to some extent achieve that, but can't compete, and nothing can compete in terms of performance against the combination hard training + illegal drugs + optimal diet ...

Cichorei Kano wrote:

afulldeck wrote:
So the question is what can an amateur coach do to help his team using this knowledge? Its impractical to tell our future stars of the sport, at least in many locations, to search for key scientist that may be thousands of miles away....
Surely, without spending thousands of dollars we can as amateur coaches help people move in more appropriate directions.

That is true, but it becomes different to offer you IN A GENERAL WAY things that amount to more than clichés. For example, I can say with certainty that your judo performance is probably not going to improve if you change your diet in consuming mostly pure lard. But ... you don't really need me for that. Everyone could have said that, and the same recommendation would also apply to tennis performance.

I think that an honest, but still GENERALIZED (and therefore not super-helpful) recommendation is: eat healthy, but make sure that healthy food also delivers enough energy and that you can digest it. Adapt your diet in combination with physical exercise in such a way that helps maintaining a fat level that is both health and that you can maintain without doing crazy things. Try to analyze if you are particularly prone to certain injuries or certain weaknesses in your performance, and see if there are a number of dietary factor that may play a role in mediating these. Is there a combination of dietary factors that as a group you might wish to adapt in order to respond to the results of that analysis. For the rest, effects will be limited, at least acutely, unless they are boosted by the application of very specific training or by illegal drugs. There is no doubt that the use of anabolic steroids and growth hormone makes the use of a high-protein diet far more effective since they will increase its absorption and change the body's nitrogen balance. Specfiic training can in a legal way to some extent achieve that, but can't compete, and nothing can compete in terms of performance against the combination hard training + illegal drugs + optimal diet ...

You know it seems easier to get diet right for my dog, but not the team....