You will find very interesting this analysis on the throws used by Rodolfo in his BJJ game.
Abraço
DarthVader wrote:
You will find very interesting this analysis on the throws used by Rodolfo in his BJJ game.
Abraço
Ben Reinhardt wrote:This "plane" concept is common knowledge among informed judoka coaches/sensei. I hammer it into my students both conceptually and practically in class.
Rodolfo uses good Judo well in context of BJJ matches against generally overmatched opponents (in terms of their "standup" fighting), thus is successful.
Judo offers BJJ the same learning opportunities standing as BJJ offers Judo on the ground.
afulldeck wrote:DarthVader wrote:
You will find very interesting this analysis on the throws used by Rodolfo in his BJJ game.
Abraço
(2) I'm worried that that, at least in NA, that bjj is going to continue to usurp Judo with this type of 'fun' analysis and perhaps continue to move worldwide.
Cichorei Kano wrote:Ben Reinhardt wrote:This "plane" concept is common knowledge among informed judoka coaches/sensei. I hammer it into my students both conceptually and practically in class.
Rodolfo uses good Judo well in context of BJJ matches against generally overmatched opponents (in terms of their "standup" fighting), thus is successful.
Judo offers BJJ the same learning opportunities standing as BJJ offers Judo on the ground.
I too would support that the concepts can be very useful as part of teaching.
I am curious though about your opinion in terms of the accuracy of what is said in the video. I think a message is brought across, and I think that the visual aspects as shown will help lay people understand it, but ... the application of some terminology and concepts is scientifically not correct. For example, "strong planes" and "weak planes" ? I am sure one could compare Boeing vs. Airbus, but all kidding aside, a plane is a plane, and the frontal or saggital plane themselves have no power characteristics. The explanation confuses concepts such as equilibrium. Archimedes around 240 BC already dealt with the equilibrium of planes. A scientifically correct explanation no doubt would be more complicated and therefore somewhat harder to understand by laypeople, but I am not sure that simplification is justified if it infuses concepts with too much error. In judo more correctly what we have is a solid body of variable geometry and cylindrical symmetry, which can assume different postures, normally situated in unstable equilibrium into the gravitational field, over a plane surface while exerting friction, and having the ability to produced well-defined segmental rotations of joints.
Other errors in the video include the suggestions that a human would be stable. This is incorrect. A person is in unstable equilibrium. A plank on the ground is in stable equilibrium, a person on his feet never is. This equilibrium can be static or dynamic and humans continuously adapt their body situation to deal with it. It is not a matter of there being some kind of "strong plane" and "weak plane". But, humans are more capable in correcting a disturbance of that equilibrium depending on the direction in which it was disturbed". If you push against someone's chest or back, the person can relatively well recover. But if you push against someone's shoulder from the side, that ability to recover is impaired. In other words, humans are better able to recover from a loss of balance straight to the front or to the back than sideways. This has consequences for the judoka, which is of course what one is trying to explain in the video. Going even further than that, humans are in consequence better able to recover from linear loss of balance than from circular. Practically, this is precisely what aikidô has discovered and what is also very clearly visible in highly technical judo such as Mifune's and very pure kuzushi throws which Mifune often uses (uki-otoshi, sumi-otoshi). Far less known to the common judo public is that Hirano Tokio used these differences (from a pedagogical point of view rather than from a scientific point of view) extensively in his judo and actually even created a kata just on this aspect. In Kodokan judo, Kanô as with most of what he did imported the issue from Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû and later adapted it based on his limited understanding of biomechanics (unfortunately, Kanô was no Bernouilli, so Kanô did this with only limited success and limited accuracy).
It's a tricky thing. I don't want to be accused of being negative and just out to criticize everything or end up in the traditional "can you do it better" kind of debate, but the question that plays in my mind is ... when one has the talent, ambition, skill, money and time to make videos why not seek the assistance of a biomechanics expert in judo who can ensure the scientific accuracy. Otherwise, we risk having more errors slip into judo or novice judoka not knowing judo approaches/terminology but talk in BJJ terminology which from a judo-curricular point of view makes little or no sense.
Anyhow I was not sure how you felt about it. Me, it leaves with mixed feelings, from one side embracing the effort and its innovative approach, from the other side regretting certain things.
Cichorei Kano wrote:
It's a tricky thing. I don't want to be accused of being negative and just out to criticize everything or end up in the traditional "can you do it better" kind of debate, but the question that plays in my mind is ... when one has the talent, ambition, skill, money and time to make videos why not seek the assistance of a biomechanics expert in judo who can ensure the scientific accuracy. Otherwise, we risk having more errors slip into judo or novice judoka not knowing judo approaches/terminology but talk in BJJ terminology which from a judo-curricular point of view makes little or no sense.
Cichorei Kano wrote:
Anyhow I was not sure how you felt about it. Me, it leaves with mixed feelings, from one side embracing the effort and its innovative approach, from the other side regretting certain things.
afulldeck wrote:Cichorei Kano wrote:
It's a tricky thing. I don't want to be accused of being negative and just out to criticize everything or end up in the traditional "can you do it better" kind of debate, but the question that plays in my mind is ... when one has the talent, ambition, skill, money and time to make videos why not seek the assistance of a biomechanics expert in judo who can ensure the scientific accuracy. Otherwise, we risk having more errors slip into judo or novice judoka not knowing judo approaches/terminology but talk in BJJ terminology which from a judo-curricular point of view makes little or no sense.
Interesting comment. The little aristotelian in my head, suggests that I take a more generous view of the video. That even though the language may not be correct, precise or robust, it does get a certain population moving towards a better direction than not having a direction at all. I believe, hand on heart, that the education process for the most part and most people is iterative one. That with progressively good education you can move bad to good to great. And its only the minority of 'exceptional people' that can be educated completely with precise knowledge from the start. We shoot ourselves in the pedagogical foot thinking that it is otherwise .Cichorei Kano wrote:
Anyhow I was not sure how you felt about it. Me, it leaves with mixed feelings, from one side embracing the effort and its innovative approach, from the other side regretting certain things.
I like the innovative approach, its something badly lacking in Judo as far as I can tell. My regret is simply this.... there is no counter Judo explanation (be it philosophy, strategy or approach) on the youtube table to compare this video too. Its the counter arguments that help people learn.
Q mystic wrote:
In old Judoforum I think that RealJudo (from Russia) tried this but he was banned, appropriately, for his many insults.
afulldeck wrote:Q mystic wrote:
In old Judoforum I think that RealJudo (from Russia) tried this but he was banned, appropriately, for his many insults.
I've never seen or read anything from RealJudo, so excuse my possibly rhetorical question. Are you saying that in addition to bringing judo philosophies, strategies to the table he also brought insults?
Sorry to hear that.....Education doesn't have to come with insults as far as I am concerned.
nomoremondays wrote:Hi fulldeck,
You raise interesting questions. Are you on sherdog? I saw it first there and was very interested by the reactions it received from bjj folks. I pointed to someone over there about better analysis of throws out there by folks like sacripanti etc who have done thorough analysis of center of gravitys, equilibriums, biomechanics etc and put their stuff largely in the semi public domain. However I don't think it received any bites.
My opinion is that it is not the quality or availability of analysis that is lacking in the judo domain. It is the presentation factor which is missing. The sexy music, the cool graphics, how many respected sensei would be willing to go down that route. I don't think many would and I have no problem with that. After all we have seen the grotesque imagery from the dj'fication of recent tournaments. Sexified teaching material might just be the last straw lol.
Cichorei Kano wrote:
I have said many times before that a major problem is that the popular view we hold are filtered mainly because there are no critical biographies of Kano. The Japanese approach has been and is what we would call "semi-religious", the way we write about Saints. They are free of all the limits and evil thoughts that normal people have, such as getting irritated, feeling horny, wanting to kick someone in the groin, etc.
afulldeck wrote:Cichorei Kano wrote:
I have said many times before that a major problem is that the popular view we hold are filtered mainly because there are no critical biographies of Kano. The Japanese approach has been and is what we would call "semi-religious", the way we write about Saints. They are free of all the limits and evil thoughts that normal people have, such as getting irritated, feeling horny, wanting to kick someone in the groin, etc.
CK, I've been reflecting about your comment above. And while I don't disagree with your facts, or its sediments, I'm wondering if its beside the point of this thread. Let me explain why.
I'm sure that many Judoka would argue that Kano = judo, and that understanding Kano in both positive and negative light would lead to the better understanding of judo. But isn't that type of thinking more than a little misleading? I contend that studying the positive and negative facts around Kano will lead to a understanding of what 'we think' Kano wanted Judo to be and not it was, or has become. These three ideas (1) what Kano thought, (2) what 'we think' Kano thought, and (3) what Judo has become are very different. Conflating these ideas doesn't help us become better judoka.
What Kano thought (1 above)...we will never know. Its just impossible to bring back the dead. His philosophy are now in the realm of history. We might be able to glean the lineaments of his philosophy (2 above) by studying his limited writings, however as you have suggested this is inadequate. They are pre-framed towards Sainthood. But isn't the real crux of the situation the idea that Judo (3 above) has had a hundred years of percolation through many Judoka --some who were fickle, some unmutable, some great and some small --- leaving us with Judo of today. And what ever this judo is, it couldn't possibly be the same as 'the' Kano judo.
So why wouldn't we put aside the history and start with our what is on the judo mats of today and use as you suggested a bio-mechanics expert? What am I missing?
Cichorei Kano wrote: Lot's of very good discussion topics
Cichorei Kano wrote:
I am a little bit confused by your line of thinking. You write: "What Kano thought (1 above)...we will never know."
How so ? Do you mean 'we' will never know, or 'I' will never know. The two are not the same.
Cichorei Kano wrote:
You mention that what is written about Kanô is "pre-framed towards Sainthood". I mentioned something in that sense, but the way you paraphrase me is not quite accurate, perhaps partly due to my own expression not being as correct as intended. Kanô's own original writings are in no way "pre-framed towards Sainthood", nor are they self-glorification.
Cichorei Kano wrote:
Something else that is very important and which Jon Z has astutely highlighted before, is that Kanô's views were not consistent. They evolved. But such evolution is not what emerges from Western popular writings, where jûdô frequently is presented as a monolithic entity.
Cichorei Kano wrote:
Jûdô obviously was supposed to evolve, but an evolution within the spirit of jûdô, thus from an understanding of jûdô. Kanô was no idiot, so he understood this too. Today's IJF stuff with judo show, wedgie entertainment, is not a natural evolution of Kôdôkan jûdô or of Kanô jûdô, but is merely and aberrant derailment resulting from a complete lack of understanding of Kanô. IJF today only does "disco judo", some kind of "judo Gangnam style", little of nothing to do with Kanô jûdô.
Q mystic wrote:Outside of IJF and other branches of judo, has judo evolved? I mean, in the modern closer, smaller circles of Kano's judo and other elite non-ijf judoka, has real judo been evolving?
Q mystic wrote:Thanks for the response, CK.
Just to be clear, how does the IJF embarrass judo? Couldn't Kashiwazaki just as easily be considered a successful product of IJF judo?