The Blue Gi

Neil G wrote:

Cichorei Kano wrote:
On the other hand, wonderbras did not exist either, which is either positive or negative depending on how you look at it.

I was curious about that - Wonderbra as a brand was first trademarked in 1935, and the iconic pushup model introduced in 1961, just in time for me to arrive.

You are right about that. I was, ironically enough, insufficiently accurate in my description. I meant "the push-up class of Wonderbra", and should have said so, but I left out the word "push up" as I did not want to make my post "too plastic" or "too descriptive" bearing in mind forum policies. I had been under the impression that the model I was referring to dated only from the early 1990s, but it's apparently 1964, and was preceded by the "plunge push-up bra" in 1961. Shows I have insufficient field expertise and thus urgently need to give myself a sabbatical. Where's Dita Von Teese when you need her ?! Thanks for pointing out my error. (P.S.: the 286 obviously wasn't around in 1967 either and is about 15 years younger, but anyhow).

would my recycled body come with a working left leg?

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Do not despair, however. I am currently working on a scientific project to see if it might be possible to recycle people. If I am successful you could just hand yourself in, and I might be able to make a new copy of you, although I don't think I can give more than 6 months of warranty and no refunds.

I throw in my two shoulders (clavical, acromioclaivular joint, glenoid fossa, humerus and all connective tissues), hallax and coccyx. I don't need a refund but uncle Tony Soprano likes me....so be careful

Stacey wrote:would my recycled body come with a working left leg?

I think the term "customer satisfaction" is overrated.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Stacey wrote:would my recycled body come with a working left leg?

I think the term "customer satisfaction" is overrated.

This is sometimes called the 'expectation gap'.  Stacey expects to be reproduced as a 21 year old (though I thought she already was) and CK is expecting to launch cheap reproductions to improve cashflow, lift profits and gain market share.

If I might be so bold as to derail this thread by leading it back to the original question...  I can well understand why CK does not feel like typing up, yet again, his many thorough expositions on the white gi.  But if I can do just a little bit of that for him…   Back on the old forum, I started a thread called (iirc) “Would Kano have objected to the blue gi?”  As part of his answer, CK directed me to research the Japanese concept of Wabi-Sabi, and suggested that the philosophy there is an important part of the reason for the white gi.

Though that said, the modern brilliantly bleached white gi with a cool manufacturers’ logo would also be in conflict with Wabi-Sabi.  It is the original, natural, unbleached cotton gi that judo philosophers have in mind when they argue against blue, I think.  And to make a complex argument very simple, it is a desire to be humble, rather than ostentatious, and to minimize ego and maximize our ability to receive knowledge, as we learn judo from each other and from within ourselves, that is at the root of the objection to the flashier, slightly ego-driven modern blue gi.

Or so I recall being something of the words of CK Sensei…

Yabanjames wrote:If I might be so bold as to derail this thread by leading it back to the original question...  I can well understand why CK does not feel like typing up, yet again, his many thorough expositions on the white gi.  But if I can do just a little bit of that for him…   Back on the old forum, I started a thread called (iirc) “Would Kano have objected to the blue gi?”  As part of his answer, CK directed me to research the Japanese concept of Wabi-Sabi, and suggested that the philosophy there is an important part of the reason for the white gi.

Though that said, the modern brilliantly bleached white gi with a cool manufacturers’ logo would also be in conflict with Wabi-Sabi.  It is the original, natural, unbleached cotton gi that judo philosophers have in mind when they argue against blue, I think.  And to make a complex argument very simple, it is a desire to be humble, rather than ostentatious, and to minimize ego and maximize our ability to receive knowledge, as we learn judo from each other and from within ourselves, that is at the root of the objection to the flashier, slightly ego-driven modern blue gi.

Or so I recall being something of the words of CK Sensei…

My first gi was an unbleached cotton gi, with the Japanese flag on the left. I don;t know how to attach pics on here but you see a picture of the gi here http://stuartjudo.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/high-wycombe-ne-waza-championships.html

I saw a picture today of Ray Stevens wearing what looked like a BJJ blue gi with his red and white Judo belt at the Budokwai.  

Yabanjames wrote:If I might be so bold as to derail this …

Hello Sir, hope you are well and that I will run into you in Tokyo next week ... not sure when, lots of side trips scheduled.

You know I have lived nearly my entire life in citrus county.  Most people don't realize that the oranges, etc. that they eat are almost entirely grown on grafted plants.  The root stock is usually a common lemon or sour orange, those plants usually have a stronger root system that allows the plant to prosper in a variety of soils, resist disease, etc.  These root stocks are old, they have stood the test of time.

Growers have grafted a variety of "improved" fruits to the same hardy ancestral root stock over the years, I am personally fond of the tangelos I pick in my yard every year.  Sometimes one can even find "cocktail trees" grafted with all manner of citrus on the same trunk.

Here's are the problems.

If an individual tree is greatly stressed, by drought or frost for example, and all the foliage dies, the tree will grow back from near its roots, below the graft, even if all the grafted portion is removed the root stock will push out new branches which will only produce lemons or sour oranges.  A gardener could conceivably graft again and go back to enjoying what he likes best, or what brings him the most profit down at the farmer's market.  That is, as long as the root survives.  But a graft from where?

When one takes the seed of most common citrus, these are hybrids, they don't grow in the same way as the two parents, the fruit produced in unpredictable and the seed may not even sprout.  There may not even be a seed at all.  Worse, because the resulting root stock is often weak, even if the seed does germinate the plant itself may never bear fruit, the entire tree is too weak.

So  flashy, sexy, hybridized and very delicious fruit is still dependent on its ancestral root stock to thrive ... and by the way those lemons from the root stock still make really great margaritas ... the best.

Do you understand the point I am trying to make about judo?

BillC wrote:

Yabanjames wrote:If I might be so bold as to derail this …

Hello Sir, hope you are well and that I will run into you in Tokyo next week ... not sure when, lots of side trips scheduled.

You know I have lived nearly my entire life in citrus county.  Most people don't realize that the oranges, etc. that they eat are almost entirely grown on grafted plants.  The root stock is usually a common lemon or sour orange, those plants usually have a stronger root system that allows the plant to prosper in a variety of soils, resist disease, etc.  These root stocks are old, they have stood the test of time.

Growers have grafted a variety of "improved" fruits to the same hardy ancestral root stock over the years, I am personally fond of the tangelos I pick in my yard every year.  Sometimes one can even find "cocktail trees" grafted with all manner of citrus on the same trunk.

Here's are the problems.

If an individual tree is greatly stressed, by drought or frost for example, and all the foliage dies, the tree will grow back from near its roots, below the graft, even if all the grafted portion is removed the root stock will push out new branches which will only produce lemons or sour oranges.  A gardener could conceivably graft again and go back to enjoying what he likes best, or what brings him the most profit down at the farmer's market.  That is, as long as the root survives.  But a graft from where?

When one takes the seed of most common citrus, these are hybrids, they don't grow in the same way as the two parents, the fruit produced in unpredictable and the seed may not even sprout.  There may not even be a seed at all.  Worse, because the resulting root stock is often weak, even if the seed does germinate the plant itself may never bear fruit, the entire tree is too weak.

So  flashy, sexy, hybridized and very delicious fruit is still dependent on its ancestral root stock to thrive ... and by the way those lemons from the root stock still make really great margaritas ... the best.

Do you understand the point I am trying to make about judo?

No, but I now have a much better understanding of your family tree.

NBK

PS - bring me a vat of those magaritas...

Yabanjames wrote:Though that said, the modern brilliantly bleached white gi with a cool manufacturers’ logo would also be in conflict with Wabi-Sabi.  It is the original, natural, unbleached cotton gi that judo philosophers have in mind when they argue against blue, I think.

But now that bleached white is the norm, wearing unbleached is a way to stand out. You can't win!

NBK wrote:No, but I now have a much better understanding of your family tree.  

NBK

PS - bring me a vat of those magaritas...

It has been told to me that the pun is the epitome of Japanese humor. You are almost there.

As for margaritas ... the BEST margaritas being served in the world ... at last check ... were being poured at Agave ... right across the street from Almond/Roppongi Station. They use a proper lemon juice ... not a sweet and sour mix ... Herradura tequila ... the blue horseshoe label ... and at last check they even stocked real Mexican Controy ... not Cointreau or some other crap. Served straight up, in a cocktail glass with salt on the rim.

There's another judo analogy available here ... you add the last part ... "it's not a margarita without salt, and it's not judo without _____ "

Neil G wrote:

Yabanjames wrote:Though that said, the modern brilliantly bleached white gi with a cool manufacturers’ logo would also be in conflict with Wabi-Sabi.  It is the original, natural, unbleached cotton gi that judo philosophers have in mind when they argue against blue, I think.

But now that bleached white is the norm, wearing unbleached is a way to stand out.  You can't win!

You shouldn't worry about that. The subtleties of Japanese culture can be hard to conform to by Westerners, sometimes because they look at the surface rather than living those conventions from the inside or from their hard. Nothing that conforms to centuries-old principles of Japanese aesthetics is in a judicial way going to be accused of "standing out" because the surroundings aren't all able to approach the same aesthetic ideal. Not too many Japanese in a group could explain to you what wabi and sabi are, but as far as they be removed from it in their daily lives they are still primed for it through cultural osmosis and have some natural appreciation for it, although the intensity and depth of it will be subject to their own prior cultural development.

'Respect' of what Westerners 'perceive' or elect to translate as 'respect' is important in Japanese society. Many elderly people will naturally conform to some of those aesthetic cultural standards more than youngsters. But the youngsters indirectly absorb that what and how the elderly do things is associated with being elderly and for which they need to show respect. In this way, their actions and choices often too become standards of respect even though they may not have a clue precisely what is behind those standards of choices

By the way, one does not want to win. To some extent striving to win in itself somewhat different than how we often perceive that. I often feel that when a Western wins, it translates into "I am the best of/better than anyone else". When Japanese win they give me a different impression.