Meeting between Hitler and Kano

I wrote a reply here and its gone?

NBK wrote:

I think that this kind of topic requires the involvement of a proper project that is subject to external scrutiny, and the Germans have the best resources to deal with this, also because they are experienced with dealing with digging though NSDAP and Nazi archives and other.

Not sure what 'external scrutiny' is needed to look through some old German newspaper microfiche, and diplomatic or sports histories that should be available in any major library.   If any articles start to fill in the blanks, that's another thing.

The process of peer review or position of a skilled adviser exist for a reason, and are no redundant luxury in particular when dealing with the kind of topics that is well-positioned to mix fantasy and reality. However, if your point is that there is no difference between a trained scholar in Japanology or an average Joe Six pack with no Japanese skills, no training in heuristic, historical method and hermeneutic, or who has no experience and training in localizing, processing, cataloging, and analyzing Nazi-documents, then I don't have much to add. Why even go to study and learn at all ? This kind of stuff will be located not in your typical library mainstream sources, and will require discovering references that are not now known as existing references for this topic.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

NBK wrote:

I think that this kind of topic requires the involvement of a proper project that is subject to external scrutiny, and the Germans have the best resources to deal with this, also because they are experienced with dealing with digging though NSDAP and Nazi archives and other.

Not sure what 'external scrutiny' is needed to look through some old German newspaper microfiche, and diplomatic or sports histories that should be available in any major library.   If any articles start to fill in the blanks, that's another thing.

The process of peer review or position of a skilled adviser exist for a reason, and are no redundant luxury in particular when dealing with the kind of topics that is well-positioned to mix fantasy and reality. However, if your point is that there is no difference between a trained scholar in Japanology or an average Joe Six pack with no Japanese skills, no training in heuristic, historical method and hermeneutic, or who has no experience and training in localizing, processing, cataloging, and analyzing Nazi-documents, then I don't have much to add. Why even go to study and learn at all ?  This kind of stuff will be located not in your typical library mainstream sources, and will require discovering references that are not now known as existing references for this topic.

No, my point is no one needs a peer panel, or even a single peer, to look at free microfiche of old newspapers in a public library. We know the general dates, so it should only take a very short time for a literate, interested judoka to scan and find it. Even a single article could contain more info than is known now.

I've already scanned a number of judo and Kano history books - there's not much detail on the 1930's German trips, even in books written in the 1940's. No peers needed.

There's actually more about the interaction with Italy and Mussolini - without evidence, it appears that the Germans were pretty to convince, but there was a lot of Japanese angst about whether the Italians would support the Tokyo bid for the 1940 Olympics (and a Sapporo bid for the Winter Olympics, lost and long forgotten), and Mussolini was approached and got personally involved.

NBK

EastGer_Jûdôka wrote:Thank you, for you informations!

@NBK
I can't speak/read japanese. I want to learn japanese but it is hard to find a teacher.

How much money you got?  

It doesn't say much -
1933 73歳 6月、IOC総会（ウィーン）出席のため渡欧、同総会で、杉村陽太郎、ＩＯＣ委員就任ドイツ体育祭（シュトゥットガルト）臨席。フランス政府からの体育に関する名誉金章受章。ベルリンではアドルフ・ヒトラー総統と会見、バイエルン政府主催柔道講習会で指導、ウィーン、ロンドン、フランスでも柔道の講演・実演、シンガポールの柔道大会で講演（11月帰国）

1月、ドイツでナチスが政権獲得
3月、日本が国際連盟脱退
1933 - 76 years old.
January - the Nazi government established
March - Japan withdraws from the League of Nations
June - In order to attend the IOC General Assembly (Vienna) he went to Europe; Sugimura Yotaro, IOC member, also attended (? not clear). Received a physical education related award from the French govt. Met Premier Adolph Hitler in Berlin, taught / lectured at a government sponsored judo practice meet in Bayern, lectured and demonstrated judo in Vienna, London, and France; lectured at a judo tournament in Singapore (returned to Japan Nov)

I´m on the way to Japan, but I can suggest two sources:
http://zefys.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/kalender/year/1933/
http://www.dra.de/

I know, that there is a radio speech of Kano - held in german(!) - in the broadcast-archives, in which he invites for the 1940 olympics to Tokyo.

I'm not going to dig out my copy of Hitler's Manifesto but in it he mentions something to the effect off:

" Jujutsu and Boxing are an excellent part of a boy's education to be a man."

I actually agree with Hitler there (The SOB was evil and meglameniacal, not nuts and not stupid.)

So a guy like that might want to meet Kano for that reason, besides the Olympics and fostering his relations to any Japanese he might feel is part of, influential to or respected by the government of Japan.

A good relation for him as they smacked the Hell out of the British in the Pacific.

Someone interested in Kanō Jigorō's visit of Germany in 1933, could, for example, search for the article

"Exzellenz wirft jeden Gegner - Bericht über den Besuch von Baron Dr. Jigoro Kano in Berlin"
from "Berliner Illustrirte Zeitung".

Unfortunately I don't know the exact date at the moment. But I know, that most photos in this article in fact were taken earlier in June, at the open-air rooftop-dōjō of the "I. Oesterreichischer Jiu-Jitsu-Klub" in Vienna, where Kanō-shihan demonstrated together with Takasaki Masami and Kotani Sumiyuki:
Nevertheless, there is also a picture of Kanō-shihan talking during a "SA-Sportfest" with SA-Gruppenführer Hans von Tschammer und Osten (at this time "Reichskommissar für Turnen und Sport" since April 28th, 1933), who shortly after this conversation was appointed "Reichssportfuehrer" (July 19th, 1933).

BTW, did you all know that a "Jiu-Jitsu-Griff" allegedly once even saved Hitler's life?

According to the memoirs of Ernst Hanfstaengl, a sponsor of Hitler since the early 1920ies, it happened in November of 1923. After the abolition of his attempted coup, Hitler, hidden in Hanfstaengel's villa, tried to escape the impending imprisonment by shooting himself. When Hanfstaengl's wife Helene (nee Helene Elise Adelheid Niemeyer), "stormed up the stairs to Hitler's garret, the latter entered the anteroom of his hideout with a revolver pulled out. 'This is the end', he shouted, 'to let imprison myself by this pigs - never! Rather dead!'. But before he was able to walk the talk, my wife already had applied the effective Jiu-Jitsu-lock of the police-officer from Boston¹, and the revolver went flying in a big arc into a barrel standing there at some distance, and was rapidly buried under the stock of flour within.

If the story is true, it changed history radically. Or, perhaps better, without this intervention by Helene Hanfstaengl history would have been changed radically.

Best regards, Robert

¹ After school Hanfstaengl emigrated, studied at Harvard until 1909, and later lived in New York for some years. After WWI, when his "Hanfstaengl-Kunstsalon" - the New York branch of the parental company in Germany - already was confiscated by the US-administration as "property of a foe", he returned to Germany.

Reinberger wrote:Someone interested in Kanō Jigorō's visit of Germany in 1933, could, for example, search for the article

"Exzellenz wirft jeden Gegner - Bericht über den Besuch von Baron Dr. Jigoro Kano in Berlin"
from "Berliner Illustrirte Zeitung".

Unfortunately I don't know the exact date at the moment. But I know, that most photos in this article in fact were taken earlier in June, at the open-air rooftop-dōjō of the "I. Oesterreichischer Jiu-Jitsu-Klub" in Vienna, where Kanō-shihan demonstrated together with Takasaki Masami and Kotani Sumiyuki:

Nevertheless, there is also a picture of Kanō-shihan talking during a "SA-Sportfest" with SA-Gruppenführer Hans von Tschammer und Osten (at this time "Reichskommissar für Turnen und Sport" since April 28th, 1933), who shortly after this conversation was appointed "Reichssportfuehrer" (July 19th, 1933).

......

Best regards, Robert

[/i]

Great find, thanks! but my Google search does not uncover the article.

I did find a brief article by Kotani sensei about that trip to Austria and Germany; he does not mention meeting Hitler, which presumably he would.

Reinberger wrote:Someone interested in Kanō Jigorō's visit of Germany in 1933, could, for example, search for the article

"Exzellenz wirft jeden Gegner - Bericht über den Besuch von Baron Dr. Jigoro Kano in Berlin"
from "Berliner Illustrirte Zeitung".

Unfortunately I don't know the exact date at the moment. But I know, that most photos in this article in fact were taken earlier in June, at the open-air rooftop-dōjō of the "I. Oesterreichischer Jiu-Jitsu-Klub" in Vienna, where Kanō-shihan demonstrated together with Takasaki Masami and Kotani Sumiyuki:

Nevertheless, there is also a picture of Kanō-shihan talking during a "SA-Sportfest" with SA-Gruppenführer Hans von Tschammer und Osten (at this time "Reichskommissar für Turnen und Sport" since April 28th, 1933), who shortly after this conversation was appointed "Reichssportfuehrer" (July 19th, 1933).


BTW, did you all know that a "Jiu-Jitsu-Griff" allegedly once even saved Hitler's life?

According to the memoirs of Ernst Hanfstaengl, a sponsor of Hitler since the early 1920ies, it happened in November of 1923. After the abolition of his attempted coup, Hitler, hidden in Hanfstaengel's villa, tried to escape the impending imprisonment by shooting himself. When Hanfstaengl's wife Helene (nee Helene Elise Adelheid Niemeyer), "stormed up the stairs to Hitler's garret, the latter entered the anteroom of his hideout with a revolver pulled out. 'This is the end', he shouted, 'to let imprison myself by this pigs - never! Rather dead!'. But before he was able to walk the talk, my wife already had applied the effective Jiu-Jitsu-lock of the police-officer from Boston¹, and the revolver went flying in a big arc into a barrel standing there at some distance, and was rapidly buried under the stock of flour within.

If the story is true, it changed history radically. Or, perhaps better, without this intervention by Helene Hanfstaengl history would have been changed radically.

Best regards, Robert

Reinberger,

Thanks for sharing with us that intriguing information ! It's good to have you hear with us again. Hope you will stay aroun.

NBK wrote: Great find, thanks!  but my Google search does not uncover the article.

I did find a brief article by Kotani sensei about that trip to Austria and Germany; he does not mention meeting Hitler, which presumably he would.  

NBK,

You're welcome! But sorry, when I wrote "search for the article", it wasn't Google, that I had in my mind. I meant "searching" in a more - "traditional" way. In fact, I don't know if anything of that article is available on the net, except the pictures I've provided here (I had used the last one some time ago, in a post at the old forum already). However, IIRC, while there is some text, not very much of significant information is accompanying the pictures. I just wanted to reveal, that this visit definitely WAS mentioned in (at least one) German Newspaper(s).

CK,

You're welcome, too! And thank you very much for the friendly reception here!


Best regards, Robert

In the meantime I've found the mentioned newspaper again. It is from July 9 th, 1933 (42. Jahrgang Nr. 27). Unfortunately, the underline of the last photo in my post above, with "Reichssportkommissar" v. Tschammern-Osten at the "SA-Sportfest" in Berlin, is the only reference to Kanō-shihan's visit to Germany in that article. The rest is about Kanō-shihan and his "Jiudo" in general.
What caught my eye from the first time I saw the photos from Vienna included in this article, was the jūdōgi of shihan's uke. I also saw similar things on other, even older photos, but to me, the black strips along the side of the zubon, and at the lower edge of the uwagi always rather remind me on some aberrancies of western budōgi fashion, more en vogue from the 1970ies onward, than to think "Japanese jūdōgi of somebody accompanying Kanō-shihan at an official trip in 1933". The sandan patch was also surprising me, as I thought both, Kotani and Takasaki, were already rokudan at the time of this trip.

Best regards, Robert

Reinberger wrote:In the meantime I've found the mentioned newspaper again. It is from July 9 th, 1933 (42. Jahrgang Nr. 27). Unfortunately, the underline of the last photo in my post above, with "Reichssportkommissar" v. Tschammern-Osten at the "SA-Sportfest" in Berlin, is the only reference to Kanō-shihan's visit to Germany in that article. The rest is about Kanō-shihan and his "Jiudo" in general.

What caught my eye from the first time I saw the photos from Vienna included in this article, was the jūdōgi of shihan's uke. I also saw similar things on other, even older photos, but to me, the black strips along the side of the zubon, and at the lower edge of the uwagi always rather remind me on some aberrancies of western budōgi fashion, more en vogue from the 1970ies onward, than to think "Japanese jūdōgi of somebody accompanying Kanō-shihan at an official trip in 1933". The sandan patch was also surprising me, as I thought both, Kotani and Takasaki, were already rokudan at the time of this trip.

Best regards, Robert

Maybe it simply wasn't Kotani's gi, but one he had borrowed ?  You are correct, Kotani had already been promoted to rokudan by Kanō-shihan in July of 1932 (he would become shichidan in December 1937, also directly from Kanō). The jūdōgi with the stripes were mostly seen in the days they still wore shortpants and short-sleeved gi. Some of the pictures of the final documents to establish the randori-no-kata in 1906 also feature these. But it is indeed somewhat surprising to still see gi with these stripes as late as 1933. Nevertheless, there are other possibilities. Could it be a gi which Kotani had left on a previous visit to Germany ?  After all if it says sandan, it would need to be very coincidential because Kotani was a sandan only for a very short period of time. He was obtained the rank in July 1924, but by December of that same year he already became yodan. So, for him to decorate the gi with a sandan patch would indicate it would date from summer or fall of 1924. It can’t really refer to the rank of a local as I don’t think that that early any of the Westerners present there would already hold a rank as high as sandan.

Did Kotani visit Germany or Austria in 1924 or 1925 ?  (I did not look it up, up but maybe you know)

Reinberger wrote:But I know, that most photos in this article in fact were taken earlier in June, at the open-air rooftop-dōjō of the "I. Oesterreichischer Jiu-Jitsu-Klub" in Vienna, where Kanō-shihan demonstrated together with Takasaki Masami and Kotani Sumiyuki:

Thank you very much for sharing these. Very interesting.

Is Kano Shihan barefoot, or ?  

CK,

CK wrote:The jūdōgi with the stripes were mostly seen in the days they still wore shortpants and short-sleeved gi.

But that doesn't explain the stripes on the zubon. However, I remember that I've also seen photos from earlier in the 1900's with such stripes on zubon.

CK wrote:... I don’t think that that early any of the Westerners present there would already hold a rank as high as sandan.

Correct. After his stay in Vienna, Kanō-shihan went to Germany, and Ottokar Klimek, one of the co-founders of the (so-called, in fact there were older clubs) "I. Oesterreichischer Jiu-Jitsu-Klub"  followed him, to attend the seminar in Bavaria. It must have been a difficult task for Klimek, as at that time the political relationships between Austria and Germany were not the best. Hitler had issued the "Tausend-Mark-Sperre" against Austria on May 25th, 1933,  to weaken the Austrian economy, and the Austrian government hat declared Hitler's NSDAP illegal in Austria on June 19th. However, Klimek seems to have been able to somehow manage the trip, and at that seminar in Germany was graded nidan by Kanō-shihan (on the spot, as I've been told and as I've read since the 1970ies / after having been graded shodan in Vienna already, as I read recently somewhere), and thus became Austria's first yūdansha ever.

CK wrote:Did Kotani visit Germany or Austria in 1924 or 1925 ?

While I can't preclude this definitely, I don't think it's overly likely. The reason is, that it's relatively safe to say that there was just jūjutsu (mostly written "Jiu-Jitsu" here, until today) practised in Austria at that time. Apparently Kanō-shihan has been in Vienna for the first time in 1890 already, but the trip to Europe 1898-1901 seems to have been more for studying, than to lecture. Therefore, jūjutsu/jūdō wasn't inaugurated in Austria until 1905, when Hans Koeck returned from London after being taught shortly by Uenishi Sadakazu, and I think Kanō-shihan's visit in 1933 can be counted as the actual beginning of jūdō in Austria. Actually, Ottokar Klimek had good contacts to some people of the Japanese embassy in Austria, which was also the reason that, apart from Kanō-shihan's lecture at the gym of the Viennese police, he could manage the visit of  the latter in just his dōjō; from all the schools and clubs active in Vienna at that time.

Probably there were some reason just unknown to us, why this keikogi was used at that occasion. Perhaps it was simply a spare, or whatever.

Jihef,

Jihef wrote:Is Kano Shihan barefoot, or ?

On these photos Kanō-shihan wears western-style, patterned socks. assumingly he had just put off his shoes before entering the tatami.

Kind regards, Robert

Reinberger wrote:CK,

CK wrote:The jūdōgi with the stripes were mostly seen in the days they still wore shortpants and short-sleeved gi.

But that doesn't explain the stripes on the zubon. However, I remember that I've also seen photos from earlier in the 1900's with such stripes on zubon.

I don't understand. What do you mean. Many of the zubon in those days DID HAVE stripes.

CK,

sorry, I alluded to your mention of "the days they still wore shortpants". Do you have an idea, why those stripes were used later, when the (longer) zubon came into use?

Kind regards, Robert

BTW, in one Austrian newspaper I found an announcement, that the performers at that event, at which the photos at the Viennese club were eventually taken, will be:

"The 75 years-old Excellency Jigoro Kano, Messrs. Takasaki, Kotani and Dr. Muto."

As the scan is cropped, the last line is barely decipherable, but I think, the last name reads "Dr. Muto". Does anybody know this name?

Chronicle of Munich, September 15th, 1933:

"Excellency Kano, former educator and now advisor of the Emperor of Japan, on the occasion of a Jiu-course, that is held currently in Munich under the protectorate of the Reichssportfuehrer, visited the Bavarian premier, and expressed to him the pleasure and appreciation about the circumstances in Germany, Bavaria and Munich, together with the promise, that he will emphatically contribute to disapprove the wrong rumors, that are spread about Germany abroad."

Still not exactly about the meeting with Hitler, but another splinter of the story.

http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/Direktorium/Stadtarchiv/Chronik/1933.html

Best regards, Robert

Reinberger wrote:CK,

sorry, I alluded to your mention of "the days they still wore shortpants". Do you have an idea, why those stripes were used later, when the (longer) zubon came into use?

Kind regards, Robert

I think there are many things in jûdô or jûjutsu that happened without there being an actual conscious decision to do so. When I said "in the days they still wore shortpants" I was more giving a time frame than an actual suggestion that from the moment the pants became longer it suddenly stopped.

I suspect that these are characteristics of days when Japan was exploring the new modernism and with that the kind of individualism that is so characteristic of the West and untypical of traditional Japan. In brief, I think we see a kind of decades long experiment in many Japanese things where greater individualism is embraced and hence also individual styles. The 1906 pictures

So even in the pictures from around 1906 I was referring to show some jûdôka in shortpants, others in long pants, some with stripes, some without stripes. You will also notice that you never really see pictures of Kanô training or teaching jûdô that date from before 1906 or 1900. Why ? Either you see him in proper dress as a civilian or you see him in montsuki haori or Western clothes when he was middle-aged or an elderly person. I do have some pictures from before 1900 and he actually wearing an uwagi jacket and a hakama, like common today in aikidô.

I think that as jûdô evolved and became more codified that these frivolous things disappeared and never came into picture again until Geesink started introducing red and blue gi, and much later in the BJJ era.

I don't know if you have visited US clubs for randori or participated in US judo competitions, but if so, you will have noticed that many people were teeth protectors like boxers. Why ? Well, to protect their teeth obviously, but do Americans have significantly weaker teeth than anyone else so that teeth protectors are a must whereas I have never ever met any judoka anywhere in the world outside of the US who did. Why ? It probably has to do with culture. When you have cultural war then certain things become part of reality and truth, and anything that does not conform to that is not reality and is untrue no matter what. It is the same reason why owing a gun is evident as owing a TV to most Americans while incomprehensible to most of the world. It is the same reason for why many even more sensitive things, such as same-sex marriages being increasingly approved in many states and many Western countries, while just overwhelmingly rejected in Serbia, and punishable by death in Iran.

Reinberger wrote:Chronicle of Munich, September 15th, 1933:

"Excellency Kano, former educator and now advisor of the Emperor of Japan, on the occasion of a Jiu-course, that is held currently in Munich under the protectorate of the Reichssportfuehrer, visited the Bavarian  premier, and expressed to him the pleasure and appreciation about the circumstances in Germany, Bavaria and Munich, together with the promise, that he will emphatically contribute to disapprove the wrong rumors, that are spread about Germany abroad."

Still not exactly about the meeting with Hitler, but another splinter of the story.

http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/Direktorium/Stadtarchiv/Chronik/1933.html

Best regards, Robert

The part "he will emphatically contribute to disapprove the wrong rumors, that are spread about Germany abroad." is very interesting ...

Be aware that you are entering an area of research that will not be appreciated by many people, and I mean really, very many people. Also know that the Kôdôkan reads this forum even though they do not participate. Don't be surprise if "things start happening to you" ...

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Reinberger wrote:Chronicle of Munich, September 15th, 1933:

"Excellency Kano, former educator and now advisor of the Emperor of Japan, on the occasion of a Jiu-course, that is held currently in Munich under the protectorate of the Reichssportfuehrer, visited the Bavarian  premier, and expressed to him the pleasure and appreciation about the circumstances in Germany, Bavaria and Munich, together with the promise, that he will emphatically contribute to disapprove the wrong rumors, that are spread about Germany abroad."

Still not exactly about the meeting with Hitler, but another splinter of the story.

http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/Direktorium/Stadtarchiv/Chronik/1933.html

Best regards, Robert

The part "he will emphatically contribute to disapprove the wrong rumors, that are spread about Germany abroad." is very interesting ...

Be aware that you are entering an area of research that will not be appreciated by many people, and I mean really, very many people. Also know that the Kôdôkan reads this forum even though they do not participate. Don't be surprise if  "things start happening to you" ...  

Why should we not be surprised. It was Germany that was one of the strongest allies of Japan for the 1940 Tokyo Olympics. Whatever Kano thought personally about Mr. H, he needed Germany to secure the games.

BTW the runner up was Helsinki (the familiar and comforting position of the Finns) that was later awarded the same 1940 games. We even built the stadium and then the games were cancelled.

finarashi wrote:

BTW the runner up was Helsinki (the familiar and comforting position of the Finns) that was later awarded the same 1940 games. We even built the stadium and then the games were cancelled.

And you let them get away with it and didn't declare war on them ?!  

The Finns took it out on the Soviets in the Winter War.

Kano shihan needed the Germans' - and the Italians' - support for Tokyo for the 1940 Olympics.

And Kano has an interesting connection to Il Duce.

CK wrote:The part "he will emphatically contribute to disapprove the wrong rumors, that are spread about Germany abroad." is very interesting ...

Be aware ...

Now, what happened, happened. What will happen, will happen. I don't mind. I cited a source, which is openly accessible on the net. I included the link.

On the other hand, like articles in old newspapers, what really does this source prove? Nothing more, than that this words were recorded. Does that mean, that everything happened exactly, as it was recorded? No. Does it prove, that that were the exact words, that were spoken? No. Does it disclose the meaning behind what was said, and the reason(s) why something was said, or why something was put in a certain way? No. To me, this entry in the chronicle of Munich proves nothing, except it's own existence. But, it exists. And therefore, I think it is of relevance for the topic at hand. BTW, 1933 was not 1939 or 1945. Three years later, in 1936, the whole world came to the German Olympic Games, and gave the Nazis an opportunity to celebrate (themselves). Three more years later, the world was at war. Things, views, and evaluations may have changed a lot, over that period of time.

Reinberger wrote:

CK wrote:The part "he will emphatically contribute to disapprove the wrong rumors, that are spread about Germany abroad." is very interesting ...

Be aware ...

Now, what happened, happened. What will happen, will happen. I don't mind. I cited a source, which is openly accessible on the net. I included the link.

On the other hand, like articles in old newspapers, what really does this source prove? Nothing more, than that this words were recorded. Does that mean, that everything happened exactly, as it was recorded? No. Does it prove, that that were the exact words, that were spoken? No. Does it disclose the meaning behind what was said, and the reason(s) why something was said, or why something was put in a certain way? No. To me, this entry in the chronicle of Munich proves nothing, except it's own existence. But, it exists. And therefore, I think it is of relevance for the topic at hand. BTW, 1933 was not 1939 or 1945. Three years later, in 1936, the whole world came to the German Olympic Games, and gave the Nazis an opportunity to celebrate (themselves). Three more years later, the world was at war. Things, views, and evaluations may have changed a lot, over that period of time.

Exactly. I couldn't agree more with you ... and that is precisely the point !