orthodox male jews not training with females

finarashi wrote:South park does not secretly promote burgers  

Cichorei Kano wrote:Moreover, note that some particularly well-known Japanese jûdô go further than that and have in fact an outspoken religious affiliation although the Westerner practising there might not be aware of this. Such an example is Tenri University, which is officially described as an "independent part of the secular mission of Tenrikyô" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenrikyo)

trenttheuncatchable wrote:

Cichorei Kano wrote:Moreover, note that some particularly well-known Japanese jûdô go further than that and have in fact an outspoken religious affiliation although the Westerner practising there might not be aware of this. Such an example is Tenri University, which is officially described as an "independent part of the secular mission of Tenrikyô" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenrikyo)

Your quote does say "secular mission". I belong to a club that practices in the basement of a Tenri church, one of the instructors is the pastor (and a nidan), and there is no mention of Tenrikyo (or any other religion) whatsoever.

Steve Leadbeater wrote:i've thought about this before as well, about the time when i made my very popular thread about bowing to picture of Kano. i am of korean descent and if there was a shinto shrine at the shomen, it would not be acceptable for me. my people were forced to bow to the shinto and those who refused paid the price with their lives.  

Seriously, We must all start living in the present and not the past, that War ended a long time ago, and that Country, although a beligerent back then, is now a Major trading power, and has very close relations with all of its former enemies, it is time to forget
the events of 70-80 years ago and concentrate on the future.


single edit to correct a tpyo    

contrarian wrote: 
possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

contrarian wrote: 
possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.

According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.

contrarian wrote:

Cichorei Kano wrote:

contrarian wrote: 
possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.

According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.

i don't think you understand my rationale at all. i already said that i don't hold a grudge. in a hypothetical, i said i would have a serious problem with bowing to a shinto shrine, out of respect for those who perished. i am no nationalist, and utterly hate tribalism, but there's nothing wrong with remembering the past and honouring the dead.  

Cichorei Kano wrote:

contrarian wrote: 
possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.

According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.

NBK wrote:

The numbers of normal Japanese settlers, businessmen, and families who were tortured and killed in the postwar rush to settle scores by both Soviet soldiers and locals (Korean, Manchurian, Chinese) was in fact large.  Of course, all this paled in comparison to the predations of the North Koreans on their South Korean relatives during the initial invasion and temporary occupation of the South.   

NBK

Wisconsinite wrote:We have had an episode with a parent waiting until week 8 in a 10 week class to inform us that his kids will not bow, they do not recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem because they are Muslim. He ran onto the mat wearing his shoes, disrupted the class to have his tirade, and totally caught my brother off guard. This parent watched all the classes, heard my brother explain why we bow in our dojo, and never brought up religion or beliefs until then. He threatened to sue the youth organization because we wouldn't change the rules for his kids. There was a thread on the old forum where we discussed this incident. We presented documentation on the lawsuit that USA Judo fought on the subject of bowing to the youth organization. They backed us up.  

We trained in our younger days with a young man who was born and raised Muslim and he had no problem with bowing. It was mentioned by another parent who works in law enforcement that the man was most likely a recent convert and they can be extreme. I have met other Muslim families who have their children in a nearby dojo and they bow.

We just received another call from a parent requesting that his sons only train with other boys. I politely told him that all children train together regardless of gender, and that there was an excellent wrestling program that might be a better fit for his boys.

The instructors in our club have come to the realization that if we start allowing parents to dictate which children can train with others, which ones will bow and which ones will not, it will soon be impossible to teach because we will spend more time checking lists to ensure that no child broke a parent's rule. Judo is something that is elective. It is not a requirement. I am aware that there are groups that can accommodate the single gender training, no bowing, restricted techniques that do not offend their beliefs, but we are not set up to accommodate them. There are other things we are not equipped to deal with. If we know of a nearby dojo that can help them, we will direct them to it.  

Cichorei Kano wrote:

contrarian wrote:

Cichorei Kano wrote:

contrarian wrote: 
possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.

According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.

i don't think you understand my rationale at all. i already said that i don't hold a grudge. in a hypothetical, i said i would have a serious problem with bowing to a shinto shrine, out of respect for those who perished. i am no nationalist, and utterly hate tribalism, but there's nothing wrong with remembering the past and honouring the dead.  

It's always possible that I misunderstood you, I am not perfect by any means, but in addition to the part you quote in your response, you also wrote "but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs". (...)  That section suggest that even if you do not hold a grudge against the Japanese, the acts which you quote are deemed sufficient by you to decide a certain attitude. In other words, even an actual attitude or reaction seems founded on something that happened a long time ago, and ... for some reason (I understand, partly because this is a judo forum and therefore Japanese are somewhat more relevant than Inuit of crusaders) you do not seem like you feel you need to make conscious choices with regard to other people including those of undoubtedly your or my blood and heritage since history was interlarded with atrocities and retaliation, and no doubt people belonging to the same creed, religion, ethnicity and citizenship as yourself likely committed atrocities too at some time in history. This is somewhat surprising unless you have another rationale as to why such choice should not be consistent but arbitrary.

Wisconsinite wrote:We have had an episode with a parent waiting until week 8 in a 10 week class to inform us that his kids will not bow, they do not recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem because they are Muslim. He ran onto the mat wearing his shoes, disrupted the class to have his tirade, and totally caught my brother off guard. This parent watched all the classes, heard my brother explain why we bow in our dojo, and never brought up religion or beliefs until then. He threatened to sue the youth organization because we wouldn't change the rules for his kids. There was a thread on the old forum where we discussed this incident. We presented documentation on the lawsuit that USA Judo fought on the subject of bowing to the youth organization. They backed us up.  

We trained in our younger days with a young man who was born and raised Muslim and he had no problem with bowing. It was mentioned by another parent who works in law enforcement that the man was most likely a recent convert and they can be extreme. I have met other Muslim families who have their children in a nearby dojo and they bow.

We just received another call from a parent requesting that his sons only train with other boys. I politely told him that all children train together regardless of gender, and that there was an excellent wrestling program that might be a better fit for his boys.

The instructors in our club have come to the realization that if we start allowing parents to dictate which children can train with others, which ones will bow and which ones will not, it will soon be impossible to teach because we will spend more time checking lists to ensure that no child broke a parent's rule. Judo is something that is elective. It is not a requirement. I am aware that there are groups that can accommodate the single gender training, no bowing, restricted techniques that do not offend their beliefs, but we are not set up to accommodate them. There are other things we are not equipped to deal with. If we know of a nearby dojo that can help them, we will direct them to it.  

Steve Leadbeater wrote:
If you look again at the "Fighting Films" Logo, you will see that it is NOT a Torii gate,

a symbol of that which you openly despise,

It is in fact two of the letter "F" facing each other !!...................one facing forward and one reversed.


single edit to correct punctuation.

Steve Leadbeater wrote:i've thought about this before as well, about the time when i made my very popular thread about bowing to picture of Kano. i am of korean descent and if there was a shinto shrine at the shomen, it would not be acceptable for me. my people were forced to bow to the shinto and those who refused paid the price with their lives.  

Seriously, We must all start living in the present and not the past, that War ended a long time ago, and that Country, although a beligerent back then, is now a Major trading power, and has very close relations with all of its former enemies, it is time to forget
the events of 70-80 years ago and concentrate on the future.

72 years ago today

Happy Perl harbor day






single edit to correct a tpyo