orthodox male jews not training with females

our dojoshu recently accepted 3 young brothers, around 5-8, who are orthodox jews. the father would not let them practice with females, and the dojoshu already agreed to accommodate their 'needs'.
this is killing me inside.

i can't change who they are, but now i feel like i am enabling this.
the dojoshu needs the money, but i also need to deal with my conscience.

I have a problem with that. No disrespect at all to anyone's religion, but if your views conflict with the pre-existing culture of a place, then YOU should either change or leave, not demand a culture change. Grr.

I say the same about these allergy nazis. Really? My kid can't have a peanut butter sandwich because YOUR kid has a problem? No. That's wrong.

This sense of entitlement some folks have is crazy.

A few weeks ago a gentleman came to our dôjô with another gentleman and expressed that he was interested in enrolling his children for jûdô and karate. However, before he could go ahead he wanted to know if we bowed to the picture of Kanô. He said he and his friend and children were Muslim and they would only bow to God. The gentleman was very polite and did not exhibit an attitude or anything. I explained to him that our classes are no religious liturgies and that we simply bow not just to Kanô's picture but also to each other as matter of greeting, and to express thanks for practice, and as an overall way of showing respect. He concluded it would be impossible for his children to bow to anyone but God, and he left. On the tip of my tongue my response was ready, and I was about to say "No problem, at all my students have to address me as 'God' ", but I figured he likely would not have shared my sense of humor, and since he had been very polite I remained professional.

I think that this kind of problem deserves an philosophical analysis rather than a 'yes' or 'no', but I do not have the time to do that now. I would think that both in the East or West when even before a new student starts it is made clear to you that they plan disrupt the normal flow of your class by challenging you not as part of the process to optimize the learning process or increase the absorbance of material, then it seems to me that there is a fundamental problem. In terms of adaptations, my experience is that most jûdô teachers would be willing to make reasonable adaptations if they are relevant to person's learning. For example, a person with physical or mental disability who with some modification is able to fully enjoy judo and contribute to the learning experience of others, I can't see being refused by any normal person I know. In the incident relayed by the original poster or the one by myself, we have a problem that in terms of scope and intent is of a whole different nature, and religion-driven.

However, that being said, I believe that in view of fairness I need to share another story. When I lived in Japan and trained serious jûdô there on a daily basis at the police academy, it was anathema for us to train with women, not because we did not want to, but ... because we were not allowed. I remember one day after after a concentration of genetically manipulated policemen of the heavyweight class who were anything but slow or lacking jûdô skills had attempted to see how far the law would allow them to go without being arrested, and me being knackered thanks to the Kyôto heat and humidity, I bowed in for the first time to one of the women there fore more gentle session to catch my breath and found myself promptly surrounded by the head teacher and one of there assistants wildly shaking their heads and in authentic and convincing Kyôto-ben shouting "dame, dame, dame !!" Looking back, I still blame that incident as the origin of why my experience with Japanese police officers remains limited. Maybe NBK has some lucid ideas or experiences to share to balance mine out, but I don't know.

So, to play the devil's advocate one could now ask the question: why is not OK for Jewish kids to refuse training with women, while it apparently is OK for the Japanese club to refuse letting foreigners train with Japanese women ? I believe that this is not an unfair question to ask as part of widening the perspective and provoke people to think about this.

So presumably the father would have no issue with people not wanting to train with his sons for the same reason?

This begs the question; what is it about religiously 'justified' descrimination that makes it somehow more acceptable than the ordinary kind? It is also unfortunate that sexism is being perpetuated for those young boys in an environment that can otherwise be so ideal for removing such prejudices.

But it's a delicate issue, and if your dojo needs the funds, then you do what you can. Perhaps if the boys stick with it they'll eventually reach a point where they can and will make their own decisions about who they can train with.

If nothing else, I don't envy whoever has to explain this to the female students, they'll likely be rather annoyed.  

Regards.

Cichorei Kano wrote:A few weeks ago a gentleman came to our dôjô with another gentleman and expressed that he was interested in enrolling his children for jûdô and karate. However, before he could go ahead he wanted to know if we bowed to the picture of Kanô. He said he and his friend and children were Muslim and they would only bow to God. The gentleman was very polite and did not exhibit an attitude or anything. I explained to him that our classes are no religious liturgies and that we simply bow not just to Kanô's picture but also to each other as matter of greeting, and to express thanks for practice, and as an overall way of showing respect. He concluded it would be impossible for his children to bow to anyone but God, and he left. On the tip of my tongue my response was ready, and I was about to say "No problem, at all my students have to address me as 'God' ", but I figured he likely would not have shared my sense of humor, and since he had been very polite I remained professional.

I think that this kind of problem deserves an philosophical analysis rather than a 'yes' or 'no', but I do not have the time to do that now. I would think that both in the East or West when even before a new student starts it is made clear to you that they plan disrupt the normal flow of your class by challenging you not as part of the process to optimize the learning process or increase the absorbance of material, then it seems to me that there is a fundamental problem. In terms of adaptations, my experience is that most jûdô teachers would be willing to make reasonable adaptations if they are relevant to person's learning. For example, a person with physical or mental disability who with some modification is able to fully enjoy judo and contribute to the learning experience of others, I can't see being refused by any normal person I know. In the incident relayed by the original poster or the one by myself, we have a problem that in terms of scope and intent is of a whole different nature, and religion-driven.

However, that being said, I believe that in view of fairness I need to share another story. When I lived in Japan and trained serious jûdô there on a daily basis at the police academy, it was anathema for us to train with women, not because we did not want to, but ... because we were not allowed. I remember one day after after a concentration of genetically manipulated policemen of the heavyweight class who were anything but slow or lacking jûdô skills had attempted to see how far the law would allow them to go without being arrested, and me being knackered thanks to the Kyôto heat and humidity, I bowed in for the first time to one of the women there fore more gentle session to catch my breath and found myself promptly surrounded by the head teacher and one of there assistants wildly shaking their heads and in authentic and convincing Kyôto-ben shouting "dame, dame, dame !!"  Looking back, I still blame that incident as the origin of why my experience with Japanese police officers remains limited. Maybe NBK has some lucid ideas or experiences to share to balance mine out, but I don't know.

So, to play the devil's advocate one could now ask the question: why is not OK for Jewish kids to refuse training with women, while it apparently is OK for the Japanese club to refuse letting foreigners train with Japanese women ?  I believe that this is not an unfair question to ask as part of widening the perspective and provoke people to think about this.

i found it strange that the father had no issues with bowing to the shomen, but maybe he hasn't thought it through yet. i'm actually hoping that he'd have a problem with it, which would force the dojoshu to confront the issue. we also have a kid who is autistic in the club, and i find him generally disruptive. kids don't want to work with him, and he requires correction in behaviour every 3 to 5 minutes. i am shocked that he's lasted this long, about 4 months, but i fear he is destined to stay at beginner level for years to come, because he simply doesn't take well to instruction. but i'll deal with him cordially as long as he's around. i just hope he doesn't get hurt. but what do we do when he sticks to judo for 2, 3, 4 + years, and still make absolutely no progress? what do we do? but that's another thread, another discussion with no answer.

we also have quite a few jews and muslims in the club we all bow when needed and work together. i wonder when Osama Bin Laden trained judo, if he had issues with bowing to the shomen. he apparently flipped out when his instructor's wife came into the dojo.

i think your experience in japan was a bit different. they just didn't want foreigners getting into their women's pants. it's really as simple as that.

Cichorei Kano wrote:So, to play the devil's advocate one could now ask the question: why is not OK for Jewish kids to refuse training with women, while it apparently is OK for the Japanese club to refuse letting foreigners train with Japanese women ?  I believe that this is not an unfair question to ask as part of widening the perspective and provoke people to think about this.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the premise of your question, that is, that either is particularly okay, but that reaction is more of a personal one at the prospect of anyone mandating what a person can and can't do in the dojo based on gender and not a judgment I'm in a position to make.

The difference, though, arguably, is associated with the tolerance and compromises necessary for differing ideologies to coexist and interact without major conflict. It doesn't work without a live-and-let-live type balance; and if a person makes the decision to enter another's culture, dojo, religion, whatever, it is a perfectly reasonable social contract that they should not then try to demand alteration of the ideological framework that they've chosen to enter to be more in accordance with their original views. 'Course, it's scarcely actually that simple.

Regards,

Quicksilver wrote:

Cichorei Kano wrote:So, to play the devil's advocate one could now ask the question: why is not OK for Jewish kids to refuse training with women, while it apparently is OK for the Japanese club to refuse letting foreigners train with Japanese women ?  I believe that this is not an unfair question to ask as part of widening the perspective and provoke people to think about this.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the premise of your question, that is, that either is particularly okay, but that reaction is more of a personal one at the prospect of anyone mandating what a person can and can't do in the dojo based on gender and not a judgment I'm in a position to make.

The difference, though, arguably, is associated with the tolerance and compromises necessary for differing ideologies to coexist and interact without major conflict. It doesn't work without a live-and-let-live type balance; and if a person makes the decision to enter another's culture, dojo, religion, whatever, it is a perfectly reasonable social contract that they should not then try to demand alteration of the ideological framework that they've chosen to enter to be more in accordance with their original views. 'Course, it's scarcely actually that simple.

Regards,

Very astute and elegantly expressed !

Of course, when I talk about "it's OK/not OK", I don't mean my person opinon but in fact "it's considered by the large majority as apparently OK/not OK".

I'd let them train, but make it clear that if the class is an odd number for a two person exercise like sparring, any girls get priority over them picking partners. I think if you want to break down a prejudice like that then contact is the only way, they're got going to learn anything if you exclude them and a six-year-old can hardly be blamed for what his father believes.

Cichorei Kano wrote:
Very astute and elegantly expressed !  

Of course, when I talk about "it's OK/not OK", I don't mean my person opinon but in fact "it's considered by the large majority as apparently OK/not OK".

Thank you for your kind words.  

Regards.

Cichorei Kano wrote:However, that being said, I believe that in view of fairness I need to share another story. When I lived in Japan and trained serious jûdô there on a daily basis at the police academy, it was anathema for us to train with women, not because we did not want to, but ... because we were not allowed. I remember one day after after a concentration of genetically manipulated policemen of the heavyweight class who were anything but slow or lacking jûdô skills had attempted to see how far the law would allow them to go without being arrested, and me being knackered thanks to the Kyôto heat and humidity, I bowed in for the first time to one of the women there fore more gentle session to catch my breath and found myself promptly surrounded by the head teacher and one of there assistants wildly shaking their heads and in authentic and convincing Kyôto-ben shouting "dame, dame, dame !!"  Looking back, I still blame that incident as the origin of why my experience with Japanese police officers remains limited. Maybe NBK has some lucid ideas or experiences to share to balance mine out, but unfair question to ask as part of widening the perspective and provoke people to think about this.

Looking back at it now I realise in all my time in Japan I think I do not think I did randori with a female judoka once. It was not a conscious thing - it just never happened. One of the sensei at one of the machi dojo I practiced did randori with the female students - of which there were 2, one of which was his wife (a 4 dan ju-no-kata champion) and the other was the wife of another male judoka at the dojo.

The owner of the dojo or the responsible trainer make the rules.

If the rule is, we bow to a picture, then it is so.
If the rule is, at the tatami there are no male or females, only "judoka" which train together with each other, then it is so.
If the rule is, males never touch females, then it is so.

And the students (or theirs parents in case of minors) can decide of they can live with
the rules or not. If not, then they are in the wrong place and have to go away...

So the general view is that Judoka should never yield so much as an inch?

Interesting.

What gives language flexibility in poetry, legend and verse is uniformity of the alphabet.

contrarian wrote:our dojoshu recently accepted 3 young brothers, around 5-8, who are orthodox jews. the father would not let them practice with females, and the dojoshu already agreed to accommodate their 'needs'.
this is killing me inside.

i can't change who they are, but now i feel like i am enabling this.
the dojoshu needs the money, but i also need to deal with my conscience.

Ugh. I feel your pain. You wouldnt happen to be in Brooklyn NY?

As far as I am concerned, there is no Religion in my Dojo.
I have had potential Students who are of the Islamic Faith in the past and
I have explained from the outset...

"YOU came to me, to learn what I offer,
I have my own Faith and it will not change
for you.
Judo has its own rules, if you cannot abide by them,
then I suggest you find another discipline to accommodate your needs"

So far, none have taken the challenge further, they have gone elsewhere.

Their loss, not mine.


If someone from an Orthodox Religion tells you that they want you to change
your rules to accommodate them then they are looking for an argument or a
Law Suit to get a Compensation payout for discrimination.




**Small edit to reword a paragraph**

In all fairness ... is jûdô really depleted of religion ?  We may quickly think it is, but is it really ?  

Sorry, just playing the devil's advocate. A dôjô, at least in Japan, has a kamiza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamiza), the Upper Seat, but it usually also contains ... a kamidana or shintô shrine. This shrine is an altar than enshrines Shintô kami. While there are often a bunch of objects in close proximity, these objects aren't just random objects, but kamidana, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamidana).

One may argue that when one visits a Japanese dôjô that you just pracice jûdô there and did not consciously participate in anything religious as you might not have known the existence and meaning of the kamiza, in particular since most jûdôka actually use the term shômen rather than Kamiza.

Even if aware of the Shintô implication of this, the Japanese will typically not have any problem since Shintô as a religion is not exlusive, meaning that if the Japanese are asked for their religion, many will tick the box for Shintô at the same time they will tick the box next to Buddhist. However, not too many will at the same tick the box for as well Catholic, Protestant (Methodist, Presbytarian, Calvinist, Lutheran) AND Muslim. Why ?  Because there is a tendency for our Western and Middle-East religions to be exclusive of others. One is not A and B, but A OR B. Not in Japan though. This is one of the reasons that the issue in Japan is a no-issue, whereas the situation in West or Middle-East is thoroughly different.

Hence, intertwining any such religion with judo in Japan is of an entirely different order in Japan. The Buddhists won't complain about the Shintôism because the Buddhists oftentimes are also Shintôist, and nevertheless the whole of Japanese martial arts is strongly affected by by either Buddhism, Shintôism, Zen Buddhism, or combination thereof. In some koryû this connection is still very prominently present. To some extent they are even a better example than jûdô since there is far less of a doubt or ignorance about the involvement or religion. The ideas that originate in relgion are more part of the style's heritage and ideas to train mental aspects and strategy than a liturgy for worship and hierarchy.

OK, fair enough, this issue is no longer of the exact same dimension as the situation painted by the original poster, but it still evokes a problem that needs to be considered in the same framework. To some extent, to claim that there is nothing relgious in jûdô is as much a cliché and travesty as it is a cliché to claim that by bowing to Kanô's picture one recognizes Kanô as a God.

Moreover, note that some particularly well-known Japanese jûdô go further than that and have in fact an outspoken religious affiliation although the Westerner practising there might not be aware of this. Such an example is Tenri University, which is officially described as an "independent part of the secular mission of Tenrikyô" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenrikyo)

How will your female students feel about being excluded? Do you really think you'll retain let alone attract female students if males are allowed to discriminate? Do you really think that if precedence is set because of religion, then others will refuse to play females because they just don't want to, or believe that it's wrong, or it's a waste of time, or whatever?

You're sacrificing your female students and any potential female students at the alter of somebody else's beliefs. Mutual benefit and welfare - it doesn't exist when others can come into your dojo and make a class of judoka feel like outsiders.

radzfman wrote:
Ugh. I feel your pain. You wouldnt happen to be in Brooklyn NY?

canada

Cichorei Kano wrote:In all fairness ... is jûdô really depleted of religion ?  We may quickly think it is, but is it really ?  

Sorry, just playing the devil's advocate. A dôjô, at least in Japan, has a kamiza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamiza), the Upper Seat, but it usually also contains ... a kamidana or shintô shrine. This shrine is an altar than enshrines Shintô kami. While there are often a bunch of objects in close proximity, these objects aren't just random objects, but kamidana, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamidana).

One may argue that when one visits a Japanese dôjô that you just pracice jûdô there and did not consciously participate in anything religious as you might not have known the existence and meaning of the kamiza, in particular since most jûdôka actually use the term shômen rather than Kamiza.

Even if aware of the Shintô implication of this, the Japanese will typically not have any problem since Shintô as a religion is not exlusive, meaning that if the Japanese are asked for their religion, many will tick the box for Shintô at the same time they will tick the box next to Buddhist. However, not too many will at the same tick the box for as well Catholic, Protestant (Methodist, Presbytarian, Calvinist, Lutheran) AND Muslim. Why ?  Because there is a tendency for our Western religions to be exclusive of others. One is not A and B, but A OR B. Not in Japan though. This is one of the reasons that the issue in Japan is a no-issue, whereas the situation in West or Middle-East is thoroughly different.

Hence, intertwining any such religion with judo in Japan is of an entirely different order in Japan. The Buddhists won't complain about the Shintôism because the Buddhists oftentimes are also Shintôist, and nevertheless the whole of Japanese martial arts is strongly affected by by either Buddhism, Shintôism, Zen Buddhism, or combination thereof. In some koryû this connection is still very prominently present. To some extent they are even a better example than jûdô since there is far less of a doubt or ignorance about the involvement or religion. The ideas that originate in relgion are more part of the style's heritage and ideas to train mental aspects and strategy than a liturgy for worship and hierarchy.

OK, fair enough, this issue is no longer of the exact same dimension as the situation painted by the original poster, but it still evokes a problem that needs to be considered in the same framework. To some extent, to claim that there is nothing relgious in jûdô is as much a cliché and travesty as it is a cliché to claim that by bowing to Kanô's picture one recognizes Kanô as a God.

Moreover, note that some particularly well-known Japanese jûdô go further than that and have in fact an outspoken religious affiliation although the Westerner practising there might not be aware of this. Such an example is Tenri University, which is officially described as an "independent part of the secular mission of Tenrikyô" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenrikyo)

i've thought about this before as well, about the time when i made my very popular thread about bowing to picture of Kano. i am of korean descent and if there was a shinto shrine at the shomen, it would not be acceptable for me. my people were forced to bow to the shinto and those who refused paid the price with their lives.

Stacey wrote:How will your female students feel about being excluded?  Do you really think you'll retain let alone attract female students if males are allowed to discriminate?  Do you really think that if precedence is set because of religion, then others will refuse to play females because they just don't want to, or believe that it's wrong, or it's a waste of time, or whatever?

You're sacrificing your female students and any potential female students at the alter of somebody else's beliefs.  Mutual benefit and welfare - it doesn't exist when others can come into your dojo and make a class of judoka feel like outsiders.

the girls haven't quite noticed yet. they will notice soon enough though.
i wonder what goes through the minds of the boys though.

Stacey wrote:How will your female students feel about being excluded?  Do you really think you'll retain let alone attract female students if males are allowed to discriminate?  Do you really think that if precedence is set because of religion, then others will refuse to play females because they just don't want to, or believe that it's wrong, or it's a waste of time, or whatever?

You're sacrificing your female students and any potential female students at the alter of somebody else's beliefs.  Mutual benefit and welfare - it doesn't exist when others can come into your dojo and make a class of judoka feel like outsiders.

Stacey ... don't you think it depends on who is being made to feel the most "different?" In this case, is it really the girls that are being excluded, or the presence of girls that have excluded these particular boys from full practice? Who is being made to feel weird or defective? We do not know. How that plays in the social world of kids ... from which adults are excluded ... that's what will affect the children.

Remember, children are so kind to each other.  No word here about yarmulke or peyos ... talk about underwear issues ... it could be the new boys that are the ones who are feeling the sting. In fact that would be my first guess.

Note: I would have turned my white judogi brown with laughter. I would have loved to hear a story about a sensei familiar with only conservative, mainline protestant faith telling the father "we are not here to promote a gay agenda ..." THAT'S a discrimination story for a different day.

contrarian wrote:our dojoshu recently accepted 3 young brothers, around 5-8, who are orthodox jews. the father would not let them practice with females, and the dojoshu already agreed to accommodate their 'needs'.
this is killing me inside.

i can't change who they are, but now i feel like i am enabling this.
the dojoshu needs the money, but i also need to deal with my conscience.

Contrarian Jew-do. Has a nice ring to it.

BillC wrote:

Stacey wrote:How will your female students feel about being excluded?  Do you really think you'll retain let alone attract female students if males are allowed to discriminate?  Do you really think that if precedence is set because of religion, then others will refuse to play females because they just don't want to, or believe that it's wrong, or it's a waste of time, or whatever?

You're sacrificing your female students and any potential female students at the alter of somebody else's beliefs.  Mutual benefit and welfare - it doesn't exist when others can come into your dojo and make a class of judoka feel like outsiders.

Stacey ... don't you think it depends on who is being made to feel the most "different?"  In this case, is it really the girls that are being excluded, or the presence of girls that have excluded these particular boys from full practice?  Who is being made to feel weird or defective?  We do not know.  How that plays in the social world of kids ... from which adults are excluded ... that's what will affect the children.

Remember, children are so kind to each other.   No word here about yarmulke or peyos ... talk about underwear issues ... it could be the new boys that are the ones who are feeling the sting.  In fact that would be my first guess.

Note:  I would have turned my white judogi brown with laughter.  I would have loved to hear a story about a sensei familiar with only conservative, mainline protestant faith telling the father "we are not here to promote a gay agenda ..."   THAT'S a discrimination story for a different day.

orthodox doesn't mean ultra orthodox, so we're probably not talking peyes, or anything more notceable than a kippah. Even then, it'll be interesting to see if they keep it on (with bobby pins or whatever - usually a hard object that we girls are not allowed to use to keep our hair back), or take it off. If they take it off, then...

Usually a noob, no matter what society/culture/religion/country/etc s/he comes from feels awkward and out of place. In most dojo, people go out of their way to make noobs feel welcome and comfortable. Before too long, that noob is no longer the FNG as somebody else comes along to take that place. Anyway, that welcoming atmosphere is great when there's no discrimination. Once the girls of the class realize that they are not allowed to pair with the noobs because the noobs's father won't allow it, then it becomes an issue. I do like the poster's suggestion that if there's an unequal number of students, the guys with the restrictions are the ones who sit out. But, that does nothing when the class lines up and one student has to throw the line. There's nothing quite like the sensation of somebody turning away from you to take the next person in line. There's nothing quite like a person sitting out only for you (and the other females, if there's more than one female in the class) when it's your turn to throw the line. There's nothing like a refusal to team with you when it comes to stretching or drills or relay races. Let's also remember that kids classes do a lot of games - how cool do you think it is when those boys refuse to play with, team up with, or team against a female on the chance that they might interact? Epsecially with kids, it's more complicated than - he won't randori with or do uchi komi with the girls and will sit out when there's an uneven number rather than force the girls to sit out.

Sorry, but it's the person who gets refused who always feels the worst. Been there. Done that. It's not fun no matter what the reason, and I was an adult in judo when that happened. I also got to experience something of the sorts as a kid, and there is no mistake - those kids will not play with you because you're a girl. It really sucks.

I'm not going to their shul and asking to sit next to the men, or be a part of their minyan. They are coming to a place where I've felt nothing but comfortable and welcome and asserting their rules on me at my expense; they are refusing to treat me the same way everybody else is treating me because of my gender. It's really not fair. I bet the OP is going to lose female students when it becomes apparent to the girls that they have become second class citizens.

btw, I have no idea how many gay judoka I've played with. I've never asked. It's never been a priority for me to figure out, nor would my judo change in any way if I were to find out my partners were gay. Then again, I'm not going to Bob Jones University and trying to open up a judo club consistent with our usual standards in the US. I'm not going to BYU and yelling, "Hail Satan!" before stepping on the tatami (assuming they have a judo club). I have no idea how many muslims, jews, christians, athiests, buddhists, whatever I've played, and knowing wouldn't change my judo.

If the orthodox of whatever religion that segregates males and females wants to have judo, hire a judo instructor to teach in your community, on your tatami. Then, you can set the rules. Don't come in to an existing, non sectarian club and demand that the girls take a back seat to your religion. I'm telling you; it doesn't work. When people turn away from me because I'm female, it feels bad. There's no way to make that feel like the other guy's missing out, no matter how true it is that that guy's missing out. It's still denigrating me for my gender, and it sucks.

Ah you people and your imaginary friends

This thread is starting to look like a scene from SouthPark.

Cichorei Kano wrote:This thread is starting to look like a scene from SouthPark.

i didn't think the thread was that good yet.