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    Developing a Winning Technique

    BillC
    BillC


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    Post by BillC Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:56 am

    No criticism of OP Mark, but if I understand his article correctly he is saying that there is a direct relationship between the skill shown by Anai and Takahashi and the course of practice he lists. It is implied that these gentlemen have followed that method, and this is not an unreasonable assumption in gross terms, and that their proficiency is a direct result.

    I am wondering if this is a case of "all men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore all men are Socrates."

    As in "Anai did this, and Anai is a champion, therefore everyone that does this will be a champion?" is that the supposition? Can we even suppose the flip side, that "only people that do this become champions?" Can we find exceptions, people trained by other methods who ultimately kicked butt ... like recent local guest Miss Yoko Tanabe who was a shot-putter?

    So again, focus from a young age on a short list of techniques that seem to fit the projected ultimate size of the up-and-coming teenage star might work ... it is indeed what successful producers of Olympic results tend to do. But that doesn't mean ... and I don't think the OP meant to imply ... that every child who is trained by this method is going to be a killer judoka. I'd suggest certain weakness to this approach, as other have here, that in a small sample of students the likelihood of getting it wrong is high. With a large number of candidates to put through the grinder no one might notice the mistakes and one might indeed produce proficient and confident competitors. It does not mean that a child trained with a wide range of judo techniques or one trained as a wrestler can't succeed in judo competition ... because there are many examples to the contrary.

    If there is a common factor, one essential element it is temperament. It includes what AnnMaria calls the "want to" that can't be added. I'd amplify that in her case and in the case of one of her family members, and in the case of many competitive champions, as a deep-seated and tearful "need to" which I have witnessed first-hand. A "need to" and a risk-taking nature. The rest ... to paraphrase the prophet Hillel ... "is commentary."
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    Hanon


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    Post by Hanon Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:36 am

    sodo lite wrote:Hi Davaro,


    I think the article was intended to assist in developing the young competitor in shiai at a local level, possibly regional.

    Possibly, the big problem is you sacrifice long time gain for short term success (If you measure success in winning competitions).

    If you main goal is winning medals no matter what then you can teach a raw beinner in a very short time how to win, simply teach him a competition technique that the other beginners do not yet know and have no defence against. The young judoka wilöl clean up at all the local novice events untill the other judoka have advanced enough and have learnt to bölock and counter. Then the young competition judoka starts lo lose and lose badly which for most competitive personalities is hard to take and more often than not leads to them giving up judo altogether.

    This is vicious cycle that I have seen repeated dozens if not hundreds of times.

    The story in the op of being thrown dozens of times in radori with Tai Otoshi can be interpreted in many ways f.e.

    I/ as Mark believes Tori's Tai Otoshi is so awesome that he has and needs no other throw.

    but it could equally mean

    II/ Uke is making a fundemental error that is just begging to be exploited with Tia Otoshi.

    III/ It is Tuesday night which is the night that Tori practices Tai Otoshi, on Wednesday he hammers everybody with Uchi Mata.

    Think about it Shocked

    atb

    sodo lite



    I endorse this post. It depends on what a pupil wants from training and what his coach requires from his pupils. There are numerous manners of learning how to win a medal at some local events. There has only ever been one manner of becoming a judo champion and it takes many MANY hours of hard work in a dojo. If one is practicing judo as a long term activity there are zero short cuts but many ways to advance.

    Mike
    Ben Reinhardt
    Ben Reinhardt


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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:47 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Here's a thought experiment for you:

    Could you take one technique - any one technique - and use it in place of *all* the techniques of NNK? Same set ups, same attacks by uke. You must respond with some variation of technique X.

    If that's too mentally restrictive, what about just two techniques?

    Bear in mind, NNK was designed as a teaching tool. Ie: in this kind of scenario, do this. IOW, the moment of action (rather then the technique per se) is the important thing (IMO).

    I think the debana in the NNK is fairly specific and somewhat restrictive although certainly illustrative and well worth study. For example, it might be a bit stretch in the case of some say Ura Nage or Yoko Guruma.

    There are basic physics of the human body in play in throwing with maximum efficiency in any given situation.

    Question for you. Why does uke use the 'closed gate' movement in NNK when in randori or any other real life situation uke won't be cooperating? What does the closed gate effect illustrate/teach?
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    Hanon


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    Post by Hanon Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:54 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Here's a thought experiment for you:

    Could you take one technique - any one technique - and use it in place of *all* the techniques of NNK? Same set ups, same attacks by uke. You must respond with some variation of technique X.

    If that's too mentally restrictive, what about just two techniques?

    Bear in mind, NNK was designed as a teaching tool. Ie: in this kind of scenario, do this. IOW, the moment of action (rather then the technique per se) is the important thing (IMO).





    The NNK is a story book in motion, it tells the tale of how an uke constantly changes his mode of attack and how tori adapts to each different attack keeping one step ahead of uke who is always training to catch his tori out. There is a logical progression in the attacks and adaptive throws in the NNK. Uke never makes the same mistake twice so tori needs to use different waza to maintain maximum efficiency with minimum effort.

    Mike
    Creamy creamy baileys
    Creamy creamy baileys


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    Post by Creamy creamy baileys Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:50 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Here's a thought experiment for you:

    Could you take one technique - any one technique - and use it in place of *all* the techniques of NNK? Same set ups, same attacks by uke. You must respond with some variation of technique X.

    If that's too mentally restrictive, what about just two techniques?

    Bear in mind, NNK was designed as a teaching tool. Ie: in this kind of scenario, do this. IOW, the moment of action (rather then the technique per se) is the important thing (IMO).





    The NNK is a story book in motion, it tells the tale of how an uke constantly changes his mode of attack and how tori adapts to each different attack keeping one step ahead of uke who is always training to catch his tori out. There is a logical progression in the attacks and adaptive throws in the NNK. Uke never makes the same mistake twice so tori needs to use different waza to maintain maximum efficiency with minimum effort.

    Mike

    Yes, of course. But one has to wonder...could other worthwhile stories be told with but a single word, using the same characters and location?

    It's an interesting thought experiment, because if the answer is "well, maybe", then what NNK is teaching is a bit deeper then 'uke does this, so I do that".

    Of course, on the other hand, the 'uke does this, so I do that' line of thinking is interesting *because* it encodes a particular lesson as a discrete bubble of information. Whereas stretching out one technique to teach all those things might be difficult indeed - ie: it wouldn't be as obvious.

    Still...obviousness be damned...I contend it could be done...and the experience could be as rich, if the right things are highlighted.

    It's tricky. Of course, YMMV

    Ben: I don't know, I have some guesses. I'm willing to learn.

    Ben Reinhardt
    Ben Reinhardt


    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:46 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Here's a thought experiment for you:

    Could you take one technique - any one technique - and use it in place of *all* the techniques of NNK? Same set ups, same attacks by uke. You must respond with some variation of technique X.

    If that's too mentally restrictive, what about just two techniques?

    Bear in mind, NNK was designed as a teaching tool. Ie: in this kind of scenario, do this. IOW, the moment of action (rather then the technique per se) is the important thing (IMO).





    The NNK is a story book in motion, it tells the tale of how an uke constantly changes his mode of attack and how tori adapts to each different attack keeping one step ahead of uke who is always training to catch his tori out. There is a logical progression in the attacks and adaptive throws in the NNK. Uke never makes the same mistake twice so tori needs to use different waza to maintain maximum efficiency with minimum effort.

    Mike

    Yes, of course. But one has to wonder...could other worthwhile stories be told with but a single word, using the same characters and location?

    It's an interesting thought experiment, because if the answer is "well, maybe", then what NNK is teaching is a bit deeper then 'uke does this, so I do that".

    Of course, on the other hand, the 'uke does this, so I do that' line of thinking is interesting *because* it encodes a particular lesson as a discrete bubble of information. Whereas stretching out one technique to teach all those things might be difficult indeed - ie: it wouldn't be as obvious.

    Still...obviousness be damned...I contend it could be done...and the experience could be as rich, if the right things are highlighted.

    It's tricky. Of course, YMMV

    Ben: I don't know, I have some guesses. I'm willing to learn.


    Think about directions of weakness in uke posture related to direction of throw, and the difference in positioning tori body for a basic forward throw like O Goshi, Seoi Nage, etc) when uke is in shizenhontai vs migi or hidarishizentai.

    Ben

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