Dvoynikov Roll - dangerous?

Take a look at the following video, @ 1m7s



It seems to me that this is a recipe for breaking the other guys toes. Is there perhaps a safe variant that someone could suggest, irrespective of whether uke has live or dead toes?

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Take a look at the following video, @ 1m7s



It seems to me that this is a recipe for breaking the other guys toes. Is there perhaps a safe variant that someone could suggest, irrespective of whether uke has live or dead toes?

I have called that one and it's variants the "rude turnover" for years. I have no answer other than that if uke insists on having "dead toes" in a competition, his pain and or injury is on him.

Make sure when you practice this, if you do, to warn uke about his toes and also the knees. Live toes are essential in ne waza in any case.

It won't win friends and influence anyone, for sure, live toes or not.

There cannot be enough brutality against such turtle position... ;-)

Who goes into the turtle position and "stalls" there, has to know, that would be suicide in reality.

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Take a look at the following video, @ 1m7s



It seems to me that this is a recipe for breaking the other guys toes. Is there perhaps a safe variant that someone could suggest, irrespective of whether uke has live or dead toes?

"Dvoinikov roll" ?  Who the heck comes up with these names ?!  In the later 1980s and begin 1990s I was frequently an uke to Iatskevitch, and if I remember well I think also was the late 1980s when I trained for some time under Dvoinikov. These were NOT my favorite work-outs. I don't particularly recall him doing or teaching this type of nogare-kata. I recall some unusual entries against an uke lying on his back and some defenses out of that position, but I don't recall this. It may well be that he did actually teach it and that it is just me who can't remember, but it's just extremely strange to hear such a name when we who actually trained under him can't imagine ever using such a term or name.

By the way, Dvoinikov, who was a -71 kg and shorter than me, was really strong, he had broad shoulders and his sessions reminded often more of powerlifting exercises than of judo. I also remember it often looked like he had no neck and his head was fixed directly onto his shoulders. You really more got the feeling that you had a sambo wrestler and weightlifter in front of you dressed up in a gi than a jûdôka. To this day it impresses me when I watch clips seeing Nevzorov with his speedy and flawless technique gain the upper hand.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Take a look at the following video, @ 1m7s



It seems to me that this is a recipe for breaking the other guys toes. Is there perhaps a safe variant that someone could suggest, irrespective of whether uke has live or dead toes?

"Dvoinikov roll" ?  Who the heck comes up with these names ?!  In the later 1980s and begin 1990s I was frequently an uke to Iatskevitch, and if I remember well I think also was the late 1980s when I trained for some time under Dvoinikov. These were NOT my favorite work-outs. I don't particularly recall him doing or teaching this type of nogare-kata. I recall some unusual entries against an uke lying on his back and some defenses out of that position, but I don't recall this. It may well be that he did actually teach it and that it is just me who can't remember, but it's just extremely strange to hear such a name when we who actually trained under him can't imagine ever using such a term or name.

By the way, Dvoinikov, who was a -71 kg and shorter than me, was really strong, he had broad shoulders and his sessions reminded often more of powerlifting exercises than of judo. I also remember it often looked like he had no neck and his head was fixed directly onto his shoulders. You really more got the feeling that you had a sambo wrestler and weightlifter in front of you dressed up in a gi than a jûdôka. To this day it impresses me when I watch clips seeing Nevzorov with his speedy and flawless technique gain the upper hand.

The turnover in any case I doubt was invented by Mr. Dvoinikov. I've seen it many times before from various sources and no one called it the Dvoinikov Roll.

Remember the video of the BJJ guy doing the Ryote Jime that we all argued over if it was a ju-jime technique or Ryote JIme? His name got attached to the entry/finish position for the choke. I think I learned it before he ever stepped on a tatami...

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Take a look at the following video, @ 1m7s



It seems to me that this is a recipe for breaking the other guys toes. Is there perhaps a safe variant that someone could suggest, irrespective of whether uke has live or dead toes?

"Dvoinikov roll" ?  Who the heck comes up with these names ?!  In the later 1980s and begin 1990s I was frequently an uke to Iatskevitch, and if I remember well I think also was the late 1980s when I trained for some time under Dvoinikov. These were NOT my favorite work-outs. I don't particularly recall him doing or teaching this type of nogare-kata. I recall some unusual entries against an uke lying on his back and some defenses out of that position, but I don't recall this. It may well be that he did actually teach it and that it is just me who can't remember, but it's just extremely strange to hear such a name when we who actually trained under him can't imagine ever using such a term or name.

By the way, Dvoinikov, who was a -71 kg and shorter than me, was really strong, he had broad shoulders and his sessions reminded often more of powerlifting exercises than of judo. I also remember it often looked like he had no neck and his head was fixed directly onto his shoulders. You really more got the feeling that you had a sambo wrestler and weightlifter in front of you dressed up in a gi than a jûdôka. To this day it impresses me when I watch clips seeing Nevzorov with his speedy and flawless technique gain the upper hand.

does it really matter who invented the turnover and why it is named?? I would rather people say the Dvoinikov roll opposed to saying "You know that turtle turnover where you roll backwards and end up in a hold down?" - no one would know what you are talking about. At least with a Dvoinikov roll what would you call it?

Same goes with other techniques such as the 'Koga seoi nage', the 'Jeon' style uchimata, the 'huizinga' roll, the 'neil adams' armbar, the 'akimoto' turnover and the list goes on. When people say these names I know what they are talking about. In the end whatever helps us remember it then so be it.

My mate Oren posted a video on my channel a few years ago and he does it very similiar and it seems there is no danger to uke's toe.
I have named this turnover the "Oren turnover"

beyondgrappling wrote:
does it really matter who invented the turnover and why it is named??  I would rather people say the Dvoinikov roll opposed to saying "You know that turtle turnover where you roll backwards and end up in a hold down?" - no one would know what you are talking about. At least with a Dvoinikov roll what would you call it?

Same goes with other techniques such as the 'Koga seoi nage', the 'Jeon' style uchimata, the 'huizinga' roll, the 'neil adams' armbar, the 'akimoto' turnover and the list goes on. When people say these names I know what they are talking about. In the end whatever helps us remember it then so be it.

My mate Oren posted a video on my channel a few years ago and he does it very similiar and it seems there is no danger to uke's toe.
I have named this turnover the "Oren turnover"

The what ?

I have explained this in the past. I have also taken the time in the past to carefully explain the structure of jûdô's newaza terminology. I am not fault for people not knowing jûdô's newaza terminology. There is no need to import into jûdô terminology which is not jûdô terminology. I can assure you that I have a decent breadth of jûdô technical material and I have never found any need to find out such ridiculous terminology. I also assure you that none of my students, nor most people in jûdô use that terminology, and I have never in Japan heard it being used either. I was educated at the mecca of kôsen jûdô and I assure you no one was in need of these things. Besides such names are fairly nonsensical, unless perhaps a person happens to be the inventor of a technique, which isn't usually the case. Of course, I can't say for sure since I have no idea what is meant with any of the above eponyms, but perhaps if you'd use jûdô terminology I might. Actually, that is not correct, I think I might be able to guess one of them, your "Koga seoi nage", which in jûdô is called ippon-seoi-nage and in some instances was uchi-makikomi. You can actually be very satisfied if you can perform ippon-seoi-nage and uchi-makikomi well, the Koga part I sincerely doubt given that there are many particularities to it, not in the least the debana, kuzushi, and a number of biomechanical issues.

In any case as I understand it we are discussing nogare-kata here ?

Ho my....

Anyway TS, no, it's not dangerous for the toes.

nogare-kata

Kanji please?

The Oren turnover looks like fun but I can't see that it's any safer/kinder to ukes toes,knees and ankles tbh

Perhaps there's an off angle / diagonal variant that allows for some breathing room for a less than clued in uke.

I'd also be interested in seeing other (safer?) rearwards turnovers if anyone has video

I'm going to make a video of all the turnovers (nogare kata?) I know, send them to the patent office and name them after myself. Then if anyone teaches them, it's patented, and I get a royalty !

CK, if you want in on the deal, let me know...think of the potential income !

The first time I saw this turnover in shia was many years ago. An eastern European judoka was smashing everyone with it, and he wasn't doing it in the spirit of judo either . It was brutal, but it worked.
I remember asking someone what weight category was he in, the reply was "over 95kgs"
My reply was "thank f**K for that, I'm under 86kgs"

Scary stuff lol

Ben Reinhardt wrote:I'm going to make a video of all the turnovers (nogare kata?) I know, send them to the patent office and name them after myself. Then if anyone teaches them, it's patented, and I get a royalty !

CK, if you want in on the deal, let me know...think of the potential income !

Only if you'll allow me to demonstrate and will include the "Jenna roll" !

It has the advantage that it can be done on all fours, while lying on top or under and either on you back or belly ...

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:I'm going to make a video of all the turnovers (nogare kata?) I know, send them to the patent office and name them after myself. Then if anyone teaches them, it's patented, and I get a royalty !

CK, if you want in on the deal, let me know...think of the potential income !

Only if you'll allow me to demonstrate and will include the "Jenna roll" !

It has the advantage that it can be done on all fours, while lying on top or under and either on you back or belly ...

I'm intrigued. Does it require an adult block on my incoming internet router?

afulldeck wrote:

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:I'm going to make a video of all the turnovers (nogare kata?) I know, send them to the patent office and name them after myself. Then if anyone teaches them, it's patented, and I get a royalty !

CK, if you want in on the deal, let me know...think of the potential income !

Only if you'll allow me to demonstrate and will include the "Jenna roll" !

It has the advantage that it can be done on all fours, while lying on top or under and either on you back or belly ...

I'm intrigued. Does it require an adult block on my incoming internet router?

Only if you perform it in uchi-komi ...

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:I'm going to make a video of all the turnovers (nogare kata?) I know, send them to the patent office and name them after myself. Then if anyone teaches them, it's patented, and I get a royalty !

CK, if you want in on the deal, let me know...think of the potential income !

Only if you'll allow me to demonstrate and will include the "Jenna roll" !

It has the advantage that it can be done on all fours, while lying on top or under and either on you back or belly ...

Bring your own uke for that one...

tafftaz wrote:The first time I saw this turnover in shia was many years ago. An eastern European judoka was smashing everyone with it, and he wasn't doing it in the spirit of judo either . It was brutal, but it worked.
I remember asking someone what weight category was he in, the reply was "over 95kgs"
My reply was "thank f**K for that, I'm under 86kgs"

Scary stuff lol

My first exposure to ripping uke backwards over his toes/feet was from a very traditional Japanese sensei. It was one of those "if do right, no can defend" sort of things at the time.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:I'm going to make a video of all the turnovers (nogare kata?) I know, send them to the patent office and name them after myself. Then if anyone teaches them, it's patented, and I get a royalty !

CK, if you want in on the deal, let me know...think of the potential income !

Only if you'll allow me to demonstrate and will include the "Jenna roll" !

It has the advantage that it can be done on all fours, while lying on top or under and either on you back or belly ...

I'm intrigued. Does it require an adult block on my incoming internet router?

Only if you perform it in uchi-komi ...

In the true sense of the word, no doubt !

Fritz wrote:

nogare-kata

Kanji please?

Is it:

遁れる nogareru == flee, escape, shirk, evade, set free
?

But the technique does not seems to be an escape, it has more of an attack...
i'm confused...

Fritz wrote:

nogare-kata

Kanji please?

逃れ方

It seems to me that many turtle attacks / turnovers are from the side. There are few that are launched from in front of uke (sankaku, obviously. Some quarter nelson turnovers. The third or forth one in the clip I cited etc). Of course, various entries into juji-gatame, choke etc - but I'm looking more specifically at simple turnovers.

Are there any rear-wards attacks that people feel are safe and appropriate to teach? Ideally, I'd like to come up with a simple mnemonic device / set of trigger positions (if to side, x. If to front, y. If behind uke, z), using a 4 legged table analogy,

The rearwards one is proving problematic, as I only know the Dvoinikov roll (which I don't like and don't particularly want to show).

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Fritz wrote:

nogare-kata

Kanji please?

逃れ方

Thank you.

But why do you classify the mentioned attack against the turtle as "kind of escape"?

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:It seems to me that many turtle attacks / turnovers are from the side. There are few that are launched from in front of uke (sankaku, obviously. Some quarter nelson turnovers. The third or forth one in the clip I cited etc). Of course, various entries into juji-gatame, choke etc - but I'm looking more specifically at simple turnovers.

Are there any rear-wards attacks that people feel are safe and appropriate to teach? Ideally, I'd like to come up with a simple mnemonic device  / set of trigger positions (if to side, x. If to front, y. If behind uke, z), using a 4 legged table analogy,

The rearwards one is proving problematic, as I only know the Dvoinikov roll (which I don't like and don't particularly want to show).

I simply do not teach the straight back ones (over the toes if toes are dead) to kids. Teenagers who are competing at higher levels than local/regional, maybe, depends on what exactly they need. I don't think the chance of injury is worth their effectiveness.

You can also link turnovers to specific osaekomi to help reinforce applications of osaekomi.

With tori on top from the rear, I use the various "double lapel rolls". They work, and are good intro to attacking while hooked inside to Tate Shiho Gatame or or Kuzure Kami Shiho Gatame. They help to familiarize students with rolling uke to open attack opportunities, and also offer workable entries to shime and kansetsu waza when appropriate. This increases the ne waza "literacy".

What I find even more important than learning a bunch of different turnovers is the concept/idea/skill of attacking with one turnover and then another as uke reacts to the first attack. The flow from one to another is what usually works rather than one simple turnover.

Fritz wrote:

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Fritz wrote:

nogare-kata

Kanji please?

逃れ方

Thank you.

But why do you classify the mentioned attack against the turtle as "kind of escape"?

There are many words where the meaning is different from the literal meaning or the historic meaning. For example, when we talk about sensitive items or the sort of things for which children are too young to hear, we use words where we know what they mean but the children can't understand because they only hear and know the literal meaning.

There are many words in jûdô were the meaning as we understand is, is different. For example, take 'ippon' and 'waza-ari'. What does it mean: point and half-point ? Not at all. 'Ippon' really means "one book" or "on cilindrical thing". "Waza-ari" means "there is a technique". But no one in jûdô takes those words literal. 'Yûkô' literally means 'valid', and 'kôka" means 'result'.

So, nothing in these terms linguistically means that one would be of a higher values than the other, and yet, that is what these terms have come to mean in jûdô.

What does 'chû'i' mean ? Really, it is just a caution, like pointing out to be careful so you don't injure yourself. You'll see in many buildings in Japan such as near elevators little notices that say "chû'i". Clearly those don't indicate that people who read it receive a penalty, and yet that it what it has come to mean in jûdô. There is absolutely nothing in the word "chû'i" that suggests it would be heavier or more serious than "shidô". In fact, "shidô" contains more of a disciplinary thing than"chû'i" and yet that is not how it is understood in jûdô. Sorry, I did not invent it, nothing I can do about it.

"Keikoku" in reality is nothing bad, and can just imply "advice". Alternatively it means "warning", just like "chû'i" means warning, nothing to indicate that it is more serious.

There are many terms that are used in jûdô that all literally and linguistically mean "escape techniques/methods":

- nogare-kata
- nige-waza
- fusegi-waza
- ridatsu-hô
- seigo-hô

And yet, their meaning in jûdô is not identical. "Nige-waza" is generally used to indicate techniques to come out of osae-komi, armbars and chokes. To make it even more fun, the kanji for "nige" is the same as the kanji for "nogare". Fusegi-waza more indicates to avoid something before you are caught by it so that it would become an escape. It's more used in tachi-waza. "Ridatsu-hô is breaking away from something that has caught you, like a grip on your arm, your hair, a hand, your breasts (if you have those). Seigo-hô differs from ridatsu-hô in a sense that after you have broken away you will do something back, like poke the other person's eyes out or kick him in the groin; so it's actions are wider. If you only escape and don't do anything yoursef, that it does not belong in this category.

Nogare-kata is often used in a much wider sense than its literal meaning, almost in a sense of "breaking away from any stalled position". Positions in dô-osae (popularly referred to by BJJ-ers and American jûdôka as "guard") where you intend to turn-over your attacker, are also referred to as nogare-kata. I am sure there exist even other terms.

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:It seems to me that many turtle attacks / turnovers are from the side. There are few that are launched from in front of uke (sankaku, obviously. Some quarter nelson turnovers. The third or forth one in the clip I cited etc). Of course, various entries into juji-gatame, choke etc - but I'm looking more specifically at simple turnovers.

Are there any rear-wards attacks that people feel are safe and appropriate to teach? Ideally, I'd like to come up with a simple mnemonic device  / set of trigger positions (if to side, x. If to front, y. If behind uke, z), using a 4 legged table analogy,

The rearwards one is proving problematic, as I only know the Dvoinikov roll (which I don't like and don't particularly want to show).

I have found "100 keer kantelen : Judo dynamiek grondtechniek" By Alff, Roel van (1953 - ), Rijswijk, Netherlands, Elmar Budo Sport, 1995, 280p, 235 x 159 x 17, PB, ISBN 9038903537 to be very good. Unfortunately it is in dutch but the drawings are superb and several sensei I know have no trouble to use it without knowing a word of dutch.

The author has divided turnovers to eight basic positions where they might occur
1. Uke on  all fours and tori in front
2. Tori on back and uke from direction of legs
3. Uke flat on stomach tori on side
4. Uke on all fours tori on side
5. Uke standing and tori on his back
6. Uke and tori standing
7. Tori on all fours and uke in front
8. Uke on back and tori from direction of legs

All turnovers are described with short text and 3 to 6 drawings. As there is 100 turnovers and the price is low I recommend this for everybody who 5 minutes before the practice realizes that he has to teach new ne-waza techniques. All thechniques are meant for "safe" practice so no backwards ones.