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afulldeck
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Cichorei Kano
Fritz
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    Dvoynikov Roll - dangerous?

    Fritz
    Fritz


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    Post by Fritz Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:03 am

    @CK: Thank you for the detailed explanations, that was exactly i was looking for.
    I think, i will quote your posting in the german judo forum :-)
    Ricebale
    Ricebale


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    Post by Ricebale Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:44 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Fritz wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Fritz wrote:
    nogare-kata
    Kanji please?
    逃れ方
    Thank you.

    But why do you classify the mentioned attack against the turtle as "kind of escape"?

    There are many words where the meaning is different from the literal meaning or the historic meaning. For example, when we talk about sensitive items or the sort of things for which children are too young to hear, we use words where we know what they mean but the children can't understand because they only hear and know the literal meaning.

    There are many words in jûdô were the meaning as we understand is, is different. For example, take 'ippon' and 'waza-ari'. What does it mean: point and half-point ?  Not at all. 'Ippon' really means "one book" or "on cilindrical thing". "Waza-ari" means "there is a technique". But no one in jûdô takes those words literal. 'Yûkô' literally means 'valid', and 'kôka" means 'result'.

    So, nothing in these terms linguistically means that one would be of a higher values than the other, and yet, that is what these terms have come to mean in jûdô.

    What does 'chû'i' mean ?  Really, it is just a caution, like pointing out to be careful so you don't injure yourself. You'll see in many buildings in Japan such as near elevators little notices that say "chû'i". Clearly those don't indicate that people who read it receive a penalty, and yet that it what it has come to mean in jûdô. There is absolutely nothing in the word "chû'i" that suggests it would be heavier or more serious than "shidô". In fact, "shidô" contains more of a disciplinary thing than"chû'i" and yet that is not how it is understood in jûdô. Sorry, I did not invent it, nothing I can do about it.

    "Keikoku" in reality is nothing bad, and can just imply "advice". Alternatively it means "warning", just like "chû'i" means warning, nothing to indicate that it is more serious.

    There are many terms that are used in jûdô that all literally and linguistically mean "escape techniques/methods":

    - nogare-kata
    - nige-waza
    - fusegi-waza
    - ridatsu-hô
    - seigo-hô

    And yet, their meaning in jûdô is not identical. "Nige-waza" is generally used to indicate techniques to come out of osae-komi, armbars and chokes. To make it even more fun, the kanji for "nige" is the same as the kanji for "nogare". Fusegi-waza more indicates to avoid something before you are caught by it so that it would become an escape. It's more used in tachi-waza. "Ridatsu-hô is breaking away from something that has caught you, like a grip on your arm, your hair, a hand, your breasts (if you have those). Seigo-hô differs from ridatsu-hô in a sense that after you have broken away you will do something back, like poke  the other person's eyes out or kick him in the groin; so it's actions are wider. If you only escape and don't do anything yoursef, that it does not belong in this category.

    Nogare-kata is often used in a much wider sense than its literal meaning, almost in a sense of "breaking away from any stalled position". Positions in dô-osae (popularly referred to by BJJ-ers and American jûdôka as "guard") where you intend to turn-over your attacker, are also referred to as nogare-kata. I am sure there exist even other terms.

    So what you are suggesting is that Japanese is actually a language with many different words for different things.

    This could be problematic for those instructors that like to impress people with the 28 to 49 or so words they know and then try to use them to mean every different thing in Judo
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:41 am

    Ricebale wrote:

    So what you are suggesting is that Japanese is actually a language with many different words for different things.

    This could be problematic for those instructors that like to impress people with the 28 to 49 or so words they know and then try to use them to mean every different thing in Judo

    ... And they could well be a bassoon player in the Lithuanian Philharmonic too, but likely are not ...

    Just considering the differences listening to Americans, Canadians, British, and Australians, all native speakers of supposedly the same language  --English--  we don't really have a lot of reasons to blame Japanese for too many exorbitant, unfathomable complications.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:41 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : correction of typo)
    avatar
    still learning


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    Post by still learning Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:16 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:

    So what you are suggesting is that Japanese is actually a language with many different words for different things.

    This could be problematic for those instructors that like to impress people with the 28 to 49 or so words they know and then try to use them to mean every different thing in Judo

    ... And they could well be a bassoon player in the Lithuanian Philharmonic too, but likely are not ...

    Just considering the differences listening to Americans, Canadians, British, and Australians, all native speakers of supposedly the same language  --British--  we don't really have a lot of reasons to blame Japanese for too many exorbitant, unfathomable complications.

    I think you'll find we call it English...
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


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    Post by Cichorei Kano Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:41 am

    still learning wrote:

    I think you'll find we call it English...

    Typo, sorry, I corrected it.

    But yes, so ... um ... clearly same language ...








    finarashi
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    Post by finarashi Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:27 am

    "United States and England are two great nations that have many things in common except language!"
    Davaro
    Davaro


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    Post by Davaro Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:53 am

    And then you get South Africans... Howzit? Ja well no fine my china.

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