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    Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems

    Allen
    Allen

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    Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems Empty Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems

    Post by Allen on Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:13 am

    OK, we are working through the kata, and we are having trouble with Tsurikomi goshi.

    I'll describe the problem, and I'll describe my theory/solution, and then I would appreciate any other guidance on the issue.

    As we are now noticing with this throw, and at previous kata clinics I've been to, the tsurite/lapel arm takes the high grip, tori steps into position and that arm/shoulder is left in a very awkward position. If you just walk up to an uke and try to take that throwing position (with them standing up straight) it is for us nearly impossible to put the arm into that position. It pulls painfully at the shoulder.

    MY HYPOTHESIS is the motion can't be taken in isolation, and it requires uke to be off balance to their front right, which moves the lapel both forward and to the right, which makes it possible for both the arm to be in an anatomically possible position but also to give enough additional leverage to use the arm to pull them over properly.

    That is my problem and hypothesis. Does anyone have any other advice or tips for the arm position on this throw for the lapel hand? Can they confirm or deny my hypothesis? Is it only possible when the entry for the throw includes the proper kuzushi, allowing the fitting of the body to let the arm/shoulder position more naturally?
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano

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    Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems Empty Re: Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:20 am

    Allen wrote:OK, we are working through the kata, and we are having trouble with Tsurikomi goshi.  

    I'll describe the problem, and I'll describe my theory/solution, and then I would appreciate any other guidance on the issue.

    As we are now noticing with this throw, and at previous kata clinics I've been to, the tsurite/lapel arm takes the high grip, tori steps into position and that arm/shoulder is left in a very awkward position.  If you just walk up to an uke and try to take that throwing position (with them standing up straight) it is for us nearly impossible to put the arm into that position.  It pulls painfully at the shoulder.

    MY HYPOTHESIS is the motion can't be taken in isolation, and it requires uke to be off balance to their front right, which moves the lapel both forward and to the right, which makes it possible for both the arm to be in an anatomically possible position but also to give enough additional leverage to use the arm to pull them over properly.

    That is my problem and hypothesis.  Does anyone have any other advice or tips for the arm position on this throw for the lapel hand?  Can they confirm or deny my hypothesis?   Is it only possible when the entry for the throw includes the proper kuzushi, allowing the fitting of the body to let the arm/shoulder position more naturally?


    Where do you get all this ?  I mean this seriously, so I am not trying to be a smart ass attempting to provoke hostility. I am very serious: where do you get this ?  I mean, you must have access to a whole lot of sources which you have studied and consulted. If not, why would you even develop your own hypothesis ?  There is no need for a hypothesis. A hypothesis has a place when the answer or solution is not known. It IS known how TKG is done and why it is part of NNK and at that spot. Or, are you suggesting that it is the previous kata clinics that represent the source material. If so, why not asking these questions to the instructors who taught these classes ?  After all, they get paid, you pay to attend those kata classes, so it is not unreasonable to expect them to actually teach you and part of teaching is to answer students' questions. Now don't tell me that everyone who was there was mostly busy videotaping ...   If so, you have a part explanation for some of the problems.

    Someone here, who knows (wdax, Hanon, Kuden) could write a lengthy explanation about what is really happening there and why, and no matter how useful for some, part of that energy would be lost. You have attended various kata clinics per your own words. So what did you learn there, would be my question ?

    From what you write here, it seems that you have memorized a number of mechanical actions which you are repeating without really knowing what is happening there and why. I don't know why that is since I wasn't there and don't know if the cause of that is mostly the person listening, the person teaching, or how the matching between the tasks of both took place. When you attend your next clinic you may wish to devote attention either by listening or by provoking this by asking targeted questions as to what is really happening.

    The second issue is that there are numerous reasons why you have problems. I have to see this,  and probably even have to feel what it is you are doing. Distance, coordination, timing, contact, etc, enough that can be wrong. If one knows how to perform tsuri-komi-goshi properly it matters little where you grab the opponent. Not that irrespective of where you grab it would be equally easy, but certainly possible. So, that location is not critical. For that reason  --and I am wildly speculating not having seen you do it--  I doubt that that has much to do with the problems you are experiencing.

    Also, note that a throw is not tsuri-komi-goshi simply because your hip comes in a certain position and you grab your opponent at a certain location. After all, it could be that you are doing either koshi-guruma with your hand high in the lapel, or ô-goshi with your hand high in the lapel. Tsuri-komi-goshi requires very specific actions and in the absence of those actions a throw is not tsuri-komi-goshi although it may superficially mimic tsuri-komi-goshi. Similarly it is possible to perform koshi-guruma with your had high in the lapel, and perform ô-goshi with your hand across uke's shoulder. All three have different principles and it is those principles that constitute the throw, not where you grab your opponent.

    If your shoulder hurts when doing what may or may not be tsuri-komi-goshi then usually there is one of three options: 1. you have some shoulder overuse injury potentially at one of the constituant muscles of the rotator cuff which makes any such movement, good or bad, hurt, or 2. there is is a major issue with the things I have described above.

    All the previous things require attention, but one particular important part is ... that I suspect that you do not work from the wrist but use your entire distal part of your arm (the whole thing from elbow to figers) at is is one solid block, and likely you are not aware of or totally miss the correct moment as to when the tsurite hand transitions from pulling into pushing. When that happens pain is he consequence (unless your opponent is a child) because your shoulder is forced into a huge isometric action hardly able to overcome the resistance represented by the body mass and actions of the uke; in other words, what it is you are doing is then literally very inefficient, and you are putting in a great deal of stress and power with little or no result.

    Think jûdô, my friend, what is jûdô, and how does kata fit in there ?  That may be a more effective point of departure, than to think in terms of memorizing consecutive mechanical sequences which need to be copied.

    So for now, forget nage-no-kata here, and learn the throw tsuri-komi-goshi, and then ask the kata instructor or someone here what exactly takes place in nage-no-kata tsuri-komi-goshi and why at that point tori performs this throw and not another one and how that is reaction to a preceding action from uke.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:18 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : correction of typo)


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    Shamo

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    Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems Empty Re: Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems

    Post by Shamo on Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:10 am

    I know from my own experience with the tsuri-komi movement that the wrist action (in concert with everything else, of course) really is critical. I recommend tilting the thumb-side of your hand towards you as you pull, so that you lever the front surface of the partner's chest/armpit area onto your forearm, and then using that surface (and the plane extending down along the lower part of your back and your hips) to lift and move them upwards and slightly to the side (across the right side of your body, for a right handed throw).

    Okano explains this better than I can:


    Also, specifically for tsuri-komi-goshi, I find it effective to insert the point of your hip into the inguinal groove bit, but some people push the hip all the way across and see-saw them over that. Whatever floats your boat.

    (I hope this all makes sense, it's surprisingly difficult to describe physical movements in words…)
    noboru
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    Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems Empty look to Daigo books about throwing techniques

    Post by noboru on Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:35 am

    Allen wrote:Does anyone have any other advice or tips for the arm position on this throw for the lapel hand? Can they confirm or deny my hypothesis? Is it only possible when the entry for the throw includes the proper kuzushi, allowing the fitting of the body to let the arm/shoulder position more naturally?

    Hi Allen,
    1,if you can ask your sensei please try to it.
    2,if you can please look to Daigo book about Throwing techniques (Kodokan Judo Throwing Techniques – Toshiro Daigo). There is very described the Tsurikomi goshi in Nage no kata (as SONO YON). Daigo there described the moment for tsurikomi goshi - "The concept of Nage no kata is vastly different to that of the randori-waza in tsurikomi goshi. In short, at the moment uke responds by bending back, tori lowers his waist and puts the back of his waist and puts the back of his waist agains ukes thighs(to act as fulcrum for the throw) and while raising his waist, pulls down with both hands(the right hand gripping the back of ukes collar), and throws uke down".
    3, I attached two fotos from youtube videos of Nage no kata (oficial sources). You can look at it.
    4, You can compare it with your doing - look at this: Does uke respond by bending back (Is he straight?)? Have you got your foots in correct position related uke foots? Are your hips/waist enough low (your waist agains ukes thighs)? May be here is any problem and it is reflected to your problems with hand/shoulder...

    Here are videos about Nage no kata -
    Kodokan Judo: NAGE-NO-KATA (Full Film) - time 42:31
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S8I76aPW7s

    NAGE NO KATA Kodokan - please can you look to moments time: 16:52 (hand position on the lapel), 17:01 (position before kake)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvhRlK-K0e8
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    noboru
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    Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems Empty Nage no kata , Koshi Waza by Daigo Sensei

    Post by noboru on Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:08 am

    I found amazing video with explanation Nage no kata -> Koshi waza from Daigo sensei from CREMONA (iTALY) 3 NOVEMBER 2011

    Tsurikomi goshi is from 12:52 - best explanation for me

    Nage no kata , Koshi Waza by Daigo Sensei
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQPpxYu7fEM
    noboru
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    Post by noboru on Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:10 am

    Photo from Kagami buraki in Kodokan 2017. Nice shot of Tsurikomigoshi
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/news/images/H29%E6%8A%95%E3%81%AE%E5%BD%A2.JPG
    Tsurikomi Goshi - Tsurite problems H29%E6%8A%95%E3%81%AE%E5%BD%A2

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