Ben Reinhardt wrote:So is it reap or sweep ?
The far leg isn't reaped or swept in the "versions" of Uchi Mata. Can be touched/brushed as tori legs goes between uke legs, but that's not the primary focus of the throw.
EternalStudent wrote:Thank you for your reply.
I used the term reap or sweep to address the leg action, and I guess for lack of a better word (at the time). What would be a better term then? Hooking? Guiding?
I'd say "hit" at this point...
My point is that "reap" and "sweep" have two distinct meanings in Judo (barai and kari) that imply specific types of actions. I'm not sure how the leg action in Uchi Mata is classified, I'm guessing it's neither a sweep or a reap. I've been told that the original meaning of Uchi Mata was "thigh hit" not "inner thigh", maybe someone will clarify that issue if we are lucky.
EternalStudent wrote:And, seeing uchimata is originally classified as ashi-waza, one can say that the leg action actually is the primary focus of the throw. Of course, all throws consists of several stages, but what makes ashi waza is that the actual kake phase is done with a leg/foot action, is it not? What, according to you is the primary focus of the throw then?
Well, sort of...the leg action facilitates the throw by lifting/hitting uke leg/lower body in one direction while the upper body pushes/turns in the opposite direction, a "force-couple" in the more modern terminology. However, in the original Kodokan classification, you are correct I think.
Ben Reinhardt wrote:
I think you are confusing yourself with all the variations of Uchi Mata.
Not at all. I'm just looking to understand the origins of several 'variations' and how they are to be distinguished from other variations (and other techniques).
Seeing as there is a vast array of opinions (which is understandable), I'm not looking for the one 'truth'. Merely hoping to broaden my understanding by replies in this topic
OK, I'm going to a place that may seem rude to you, however, I don't intend to be rude. Look it this a me playing "Devil's Advocate" or something similar.
Looking at the variations in isolation may not be the best approach. Consider under what conditions the variations might be useful. Conditions being relative posture, grip, relative size of uke and tori, direction and speed of movement of uke and tori. Perhaps the different variations arose as solutions to specific situations.
The reason I bring that up is that I had similar questions a few years ago. We had a visiting instructor from Tokai University at our university judo club...he was with us for about a year and a half. We went over Uchi Mata quite a bit (which didn't make me an expert by any means, LOL!, but he was...). The upshot is that the various leg positions/hip vs leg, ken ken, etc variations of Uchi Mata or Uchi Mata-like throws arose from specific situations as I outlined above. So the origins were in practicality to deal with situations that arose in randori and shiai.
I won't pretend t have understood all he taught, or have been able to do all of them correctly. However, that particular series of lessons over several weeks made a big impression on me, and the lesson applied to variations of other throws and katame waza as well over the year and a half we were honored by his presence.
Ben Reinhardt wrote:
The basic Uchi Mata hits uke inner thigh with the back of your thigh (usually clearly illustrated in Nage No Kata). In terms of variations, what you see are basically methods for dealing with different grip/posture/movement combinations that lead to variations of Uchi Mata.
EternalStudent wrote:So, then by your definition, does it matter which (inner) thigh you 'hit'? And if not, is Inoue version still a variation, or can it still be labeled as classic uchi mata?
His starting grip/posture/entry do not look different than standard to me.
And my question actually is how to distinguish his execution of uchi mata from hane goshi, as there seems to be confusion/debate abou
Hane Goshi is "spring hip"...there has to be some sort of springing action, I think one of our former "senior" members described the motion as helical in nature. Just hitting uke far leg doesn't make the throw Hane Goshi, that much I do know.
I'd call what Inoue demonstrates as "standard",although it can be done "standard" in different ways more or less. I think he is trying to show the principles of the throw. Watch his the video below to see how it works in competition for him. Same basic principles apply...
Whether or not it's Uchi Mata I'm not so sure, but it's an "Uchi Mata-like" throw, perhaps. Not everything you can do in Judo has a proper Judo name.
Oh, and watch a bit of footage of Mr. Inoue doing in competition. I'm not sure how many times you will see him hitting the far leg. Here is a very famous video you may have seen.
Here you go, my point of reference for Hane Goshi..he explained it in more detail in the "old" judo forum in writing, good luck in finding that though...
Ben Reinhardt wrote:
Get the basic down. Post some video of you doing Uchi Mata.
Usually there are issue/problems involved that are basic, rather than trying to do variations. If your basic is good/strong, the variations are not that big a deal.
This is not about me wanting to learn how to do uchi mata. And as you can see from my forum alias, I consider myself to be always learning, no matter my rank in judo
I've got nothing against academic discussions, don't get me wrong. I often wonder though if it's a lot simpler than we make it out to be..."we" including myself.
Last edited by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:53 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Trying to get the quotes to make sense...)