Ben Reinhardt wrote:
Looking at the variations in isolation may not be the best approach. Consider under what conditions the variations might be useful. Conditions being relative posture, grip, relative size of uke and tori, direction and speed of movement of uke and tori. Perhaps the different variations arose as solutions to specific situations.
EternalStudent wrote:Interesting notion. I will take it to heart.
EternalStudent wrote:So, then by your definition, does it matter which (inner) thigh you 'hit'? And if not, is Inoue version still a variation, or can it still be labeled as classic uchi mata?
His starting grip/posture/entry do not look different than standard to me.
Missed this one. I don't think that in the "far leg" version, you really "hit" uke thigh or leg. More of a brushing action. I go on about that a bit further below.
EternalStudent wrote:And my question actually is how to distinguish his execution of uchi mata from hane goshi, as there seems to be confusion/debate about
Ben Reinhardt wrote:Hane Goshi is "spring hip"...there has to be some sort of springing action, I think one of our former "senior" members described the motion as helical in nature. Just hitting uke far leg doesn't make the throw Hane Goshi, that much I do know.
EternalStudent wrote:This is exactly what I was thinking. It cant be that hitting the far leg (and perhaps keeping your leg a bit bent) changes uchi mata into hane goshi. Hane goshi has to rely on an entirely different principle to make it hane goshi.
But then, in post no.8 of this topic, Noboru quoted Toshiro Daigo like this:
"In the original uchi-mata, tori sweeps up uke`s left leg with his right leg, which brings it under ashi-waza techniques. But increasily, we see a kind of koshi-waza technique where tori loads uke onto his waist and sweeps him up.
Consequently, uchi-mata is classified under both ashi-waza and koshi waza, but the koshi-waza type of uchi-mata described here is a practical technique.
This technique is similar to hane-goshi. If tori scoops uke up using the waist and leg from a posture with his right knee bent, it is then classified as hanegoshi."
So, to me, this quote indicates that if you execute uchi mata in a more 'koshi' fashion, the line between this technique and hane goshi becomes very fine.
Now, from my own experience, executing uchi mata as a koshi waza technique leaves little room for attacking uke's near leg. This is because when you enter more for a hip kind of throw, your attacking leg has passed uke's near leg most likely. and you'll most likely end up hitting uke where it hurts. That is why I think you aim for uke's far leg when executing uchi mata like this. This, at least, makes sense to me. But Im very much open for opinions on this.
What is confusing here though, is that altough Daigo makes the distinction between koshi-waza and ashi-waza, he does not seem to imply any other principle that makes the technique hane goshi. He is basically saying "if you change uchi mata into a koshi waza technique (first part of the quote) and keep your knee bent (last part of the quote), the technique changes from uchi mata to hane goshi. Or am I missing something here?
A couple of things. 1.) I understand from posters here that the English translation of Mr. Daigo book that you quote (that I do own, although do not have handy at this moment) is not the best, and in fact that the entire book is an abridged edition. Apparently, though, the German version, at least, is the "full" version.
2.) I think that a key part is that the that the "koshi type" of Uchi Mata is described as a "practical technique". To me, that means it is possibly a variation...something that looks like Uchi Mata but doesn't fall under the exact original principal. But it's not quite Hane Goshi, either, but, if you bend your leg, place it against uke "far" leg, and scoop up (with the hip?), it is a kind of Hane Goshi.
3. Because Hane Goshi, in it's pure form (as an exemplar of the "spring hip principle?"), is a koshi waza, action of the leg to throw uke isn't or shouldn't be necessary. It's the hip that springs, not the leg, although in practicality, some of both can happen. Getting into position and hitting uke "far" leg up or out doesn't necessarily make the throw Hane Goshi. That's what I've gleaned from numerous conversation here, as well as with others in person (not from this board that I know of). The leg is a sort of a guide for the hip, so to speak.
4.) The "leg as guide" idea I think may go for the more koshi like uchi mata you are seeing in Mr. Inoue video. It works the same to the outside in Harai Goshi, for example, which in it's "pure" form is a koshi waza, not a ashi waza, hence, tori leg doesn't need to hit or sweep uke leg, although you will see descriptions of the throw saying that tori leg "sweeps" uke leg...in a practical sense, the leg may well get "swept", and, like the more "koshi-like" version of Uchi Mata, it's a "practical technique" or application of the throw.
Ben Reinhardt wrote:
I'd call what Inoue demonstrates as "standard",although it can be done "standard" in different ways more or less. I think he is trying to show the principles of the throw. Watch his the video below to see how it works in competition for him. Same basic principles apply...
EternalStudent wrote:Well, exactly this is somewhat of another mystery to me: You see all these well known judoka (Inoue, Koga, Katanishi, etc) executing uchi mata in a more or less koshi waza style. If anything, they clearly attack uke's far leg in their 'turorial' video's. But in real competition, none of them (at least not Inoue) seem to perform uchi mata that way. They always go for the near leg. At least, Ive never seen an uchi mata in a competition match where the far leg is attacked. Why is this?
I find it amusing that I'm going into so much detail on this when others vastly more qualified than myself are not. Hopefully they will jump in if I make a mistake. A lot of my ideas were directly formed here, so I can't take credit for a lot of what I write. What I have learned here has stood up to the reality of my own experience and discussions in person with other knowledgeable judoka.
I think I posted those videos to point that out to you. I can only guess, but I think that the "brush the far leg" type of uchi mata that many demonstrate is supposed to show more of a basic type of body positioning and use of tsukuri/tai sabaki, than anything else. That sort of body position is basic to most forward throws. Pretty much from where Mr. Inoue ends up, tori can do Uchi Mata (or something like it), Harai Goshi, Hon and henka of Tsurikomi Goshi, Seoi Nage, etc, all with minor variations of body placement and use of hands etc.
Which makes sense, as I think he and others are trying to show something basic. Something that I see missing from a lot of judoka. Getting into more detail, they all, especially Mr. Katanishi (whom I could watch do judo all day everyday), do go into details of specific throws as to relative body posture, positioning, use of hands, etc.
Oh, and nobody "attacks" the far leg. At best the inside of uke leg is brushed, although you can kind of support uke weight on the leg (tori right leg for right hand throw)...again, it's like a guide for the rest of the body in my experience. Additionally, the "far leg/koshi" version is much, much easier to control in a demonstration setting, to stop in the middle or other stages, and makes for an nicer fall for uke. Hitting inside of uke near leg is much more dynamic and harder to control/slow down in a demonstration setting.
That is for sure true for me personally, but I'm far from an expert at Uchi Mata. I just play one on TV.
And for a grand finale, some great competitors don't necessarily know why they are teaching what they teach. Not saying Mr. Inoue is one, just to consider that when you watch instructionals by former elite level competitors.
Ben Reinhardt wrote:
Not everything you can do in Judo has a proper Judo name.
EternalStudent wrote:For sure. And I'm all for not overly classifying everything. A famous martial artist said 'be like water', and I think that would be appropriate here ;-)
He must not have been a judoka or he would have said "be like beer".
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