What Happened To Hane Goshi?

Back in the 60's you would see Hane Goshi being used in competition. It is not seen nowadays. Why?
I've read that rule changes and gripping changes are the cause, but no explanation is given.
Maybe over time it just fell out of favor.
Any thoughts?

I think that the people would rather use similar technique variants of Uchimata goshi today for similar situation in match -> for example Kosei Inoue and his Tobikomi uchimata.

gester wrote:Back in the 60's you would see Hane Goshi being used in competition. It is not seen nowadays. Why?
I've read that rule changes and gripping changes are the cause, but no explanation is given.
Maybe over time it just fell out of favor.
Any thoughts?

Maybe it is because even harai-goshi is very seldom used in modern competition.

finarashi wrote:Maybe it is because even harai-goshi is very seldom used in modern competition.

Hum, I do not see what you mean…

That competitive judo is losing, slowly but steadily, technical diversity ?

Or that trends and fast changing competition rules are responsible ?

Hi Jihef

Jihef wrote:That competitive judo is losing, slowly but steadily, technical diversity ?

No - competitive judo is much more efficiant than judo in the old days.

You only need Uchi Mata and Seoi nage/Seoi Otoshi to win World Championships.

In the old times you had a lot amateurs to "plant your leg on the proximal side of ukes leg" and guide aeroplane hane goshi.


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finarashi wrote:

gester wrote:Back in the 60's you would see Hane Goshi being used in competition. It is not seen nowadays. Why?
I've read that rule changes and gripping changes are the cause, but no explanation is given.
Maybe over time it just fell out of favor.
Any thoughts?

Maybe it is because even harai-goshi is very seldom used in modern competition.

I think that one issue with Harai Goshi/Hane Goshi is that it requires a bit deeper entry which equates to more time, and thus more time for opponent to react. Uchi Mata does not require tori to cover so much distance to make an attack, effective or otherwise.


Now, I'm not old enough to remember when Hane Goshi was popular as a competition throw. My impression is that in the past, as today, there were "fad" throws, and Hane Goshi was one of them. I trie for a long time to use Harai Goshi as a competition throw, and found that besides no doubt needing more technical skill, it tended to give uke more "surface area" to hip block against than Uchi Mata. Which is usually what happened to me, LOL, when I tried Harai Goshi, and I tried it a LOT.

Further, Uchi Mata is a force couple type throw, and hence requires less to zero "kuzushi" than than for Example Harai or Hane Goshi, which are both "lever" type throws.

I'd think that some rule changes might favor the two throws, such as no more Sukui Nage/Te Guruma as counters (touching below the waist), making the longer entry times (in general, not always) less risky.

What is more puzzling to me is that "unstable" forward quadrant throws (there's a Gleesonian term for you) done balanced on one leg, such as Uchi Mata, are and were popular and effective even when Sukui Naga/Te Guruma was legal and common in competition.

Hane Goshi is fun to do though, especially when just doing nage komi, moving around the tatami and trading throws.

Anatol wrote:Hi Jihef

Jihef wrote:That competitive judo is losing, slowly but steadily, technical diversity ?

No - competitive judo is much more efficiant than judo in the old days.

You only need Uchi Mata and Seoi nage/Seoi Otoshi to win World Championships.

In the old times you had a lot amateurs to "plant your leg on the proximal side of ukes leg" and guide aeroplane hane goshi.

Was Hane Goshi much more popular in Japan than anywhere else?

Good point about skill level "back in the day". The overall level of Judo outside of Japan is much, much higher, at least in terms of competition for sure, than it was in the 50s/50s/70s.

Hi Ben

Draeger writes in his book "Judo Methods" analyzing the All Japan Judo Championships 1948 to 1960:

Frequency of the Tokui Waza of the All Japan Judo Champions four Waza are predominant:

Uchi Mata: 55%
O soto Gari: 78%
Tai Otoshi: 55%
Ippon Seoi Nage: 33%

The winners average weight was 208 lb and the average height 5 feet 9 inches (which is tall and heavy at that time for a japanese)


Which tokui waza are dominant today in the +100 category?

Uchi Mata, O soto Gari, Seoi Otoshi and instead of Tai Othoshi there is Harai Goshi (to harai makikomi or soto makikomi)



I think, at a high competitive level shiai is reduced to a few high efficient techniques (and always was ...)

Kosei Inoue became World- and Olympic Champion with two effective waza ...

Yamashita had Uchi Mata, O soto gari, O uchi gari (and excellent katame waza)

Seisenbacher the same.


.


P.S.:

Interesting Paper:  The course of the judo fight in the heaviest category (+100kg) seen from the perspective of attacks in the standing position, based on the Olympic Games in London 2012

http://repozytorium.ukw.edu.pl/bitstream/handle/item/392/Pujszo_Ryszard_The_course_of_the_judo_fight.pdf?sequence=1