Death by osotogari?

Am I reading the report at this link correctly, middle school girl killed by osotogari? I have always thought it was a dangerous throw, more so than the feared "drop knee seoinage."

http://bylines.news.yahoo.co.jp/mizoguchinoriko/20150607-00046380/

Google translate yields:

Why now, happened is judo accident

Summer of national convention in May in late entering the qualifying season, death by judo occurs in Fukuoka junior high school.

Girls during practice on girls and two pair of seniors in the martial arts field of school, and fall by being multiplied by the technique of large outside mowing, became unconscious hit the back of the head and neck. Although immediately been ambulance, consciousness and died on the 27th morning without return. That there was bleeding in the brain.

Source: | Mainichi
Uchida good professor who has pointed out the judo accident so far, also this time of the accident, have been analyzed with the typical judo accident.

The next day the 29th of coverage, the All Japan Judo Federation (hereinafter Zenjuren) serious accident Comprehensive Measures Committee (hereinafter, serious accident committee) from, first report came to me. Apparently even at your local Judo Federation it seemed to be struggling to collect inside information. In fact, once the accident occurs in this way school, because would have been deer gag order on the parties. So Zenjuren were asked to submit an accident report to the Fukuoka City Board of Education.

In serious accident committee held on June 1, judo accident victim Board of chairman also participated as an observer, an accident report to the Fukuoka City Board of Education, on the basis of the report of the Fukuoka Judo Federation, It was carried out consultations in order to prevent recurrence. 2012-2014 of three years, but serious accidents had happened, it was a meeting that was wrapped in it is a disappointment and heartache I think just to have been followed by deaths zero

You're close enough. A young girl, practicing with another junior before a Fukuoka tournament, hit the back of her head and her neck when thrown with ôsotogari, lost consciousness, and died without ever recovering consciousness. There was bleeding in her brain.

The All Japan Judo Federation (ZenJûRen) dispatched a serious incident investigation team. Detailed information is hard to establish.

The article headline starts with the question 'Should Ôsotogari be Banished in Youth Jûdô?'

I'd like to hear others' opinion on the question. Perhaps really young competitors perhaps should be restricted from using ôsotogari; the temptation to resist beyond the ability to take the fall is too much for many kids. Other techniques are restricted from juniors, why not ôsotogari?

NBK

It's a dangerous technique, and ironically often the first taught ... poorly I have observed ... to beginners ... because they don't have to turn around.

The problem is more fundamental.

I recall an exchange during the referee and coaches' meeting at a recent national judo tournament.  It went something like ...

Head referee: "... and 'drop knee seoinage' is forbidden for juniors, penalty is hansokumake."
A well-known coach:  "What?  That is our kids' bread and butter, you can't do that."
HR:  "Well, the rules are the rules and that is what the organizers and I agreed."
WKC:  "... but it was not on the entry documents or any of the announcements ..."
HR:  "... never the less, these are the rules and you have to do as I say ..."
WKC "... this is a USA Judo points events, so the IJF rules have to be followed ..."
HR:  "... it doesn't matter, this is the local rule for the tournament ..."
WKC:  "... let's call USA Judo and tell them to pull the points because the rules are not being followed ..."

etc. ...

At some point there was an angry exchange ...

HR:  "... maybe you should teach your kids to do judo and not just grab hold and drop ..."
WKC:  "... so now you are saying I'm a bad coach?"

I think at this point Gary Goltz wisely jumped in well ahead of a fistfight ... but the necessary answer was never heard with any authority.

Never heard:  "YES, YOU ARE A BAD COACH FOR TEACHING DANGEROUS TECHNIQUE AND BAD JUDO FOR THE SAKE OF GAINING MEANINGLESS MEDALS FOR TEN-YEAR-OLDS (so national organizations can pass around ego points for parents and tournament revenue for well-connected orgs, clubs and individuals)."

Ultimately the organizers were forced to cave in or lose the points value for the event.  Why they didn't give USA Judo the middle finger from the most judo-intensive State in the Union I do not know.

Point is ... whether or not osotogari should be banned is a good discussion, but it won't do much to improve the overall competence of judo instructors.  It won't teach instructors to understand the limitations of young players ... physical and emotional ... and to protect them against a judo competition system that puts kids in way, way over their candy-apple, perched-on-pencil-neck heads at much too young an age. Once upon a time there seems to have been an understanding in judo that certain techniques were better taught first ... not because they were easy to score with ... but because they were better at preventing injury to uke. So banning osotogari might be quick and seemingly easy, but the better task is to teach the teachers when and where to introduce one of judo's signature techniques.

Osotogari can be very dangerous. I try to introduce self defense aspects of judo as we go. Recently I explained it as a self defense move. Took a young guy with decent ukemi, over a crash pad, prepped him well I thought, then swept him horizontal waist high and simply dropped him. Didn't even assist gravity. Rang his bell - thought I'd knocked him out.

'....Point is ... whether or not osotogari should be banned is a good discussion, but it won't do much to improve the overall competence of judo instructors.  It won't teach instructors to understand the limitations of young players ... physical and emotional ... and to protect them against a judo competition system that puts kids in way, way over their candy-apple, perched-on-pencil-neck heads at much too young an age. Once upon a time there seems to have been an understanding in judo that certain techniques were better taught first ... not because they were easy to score with ... but because they were better at preventing injury to uke. So banning osotogari might be quick and seemingly easy, but the better task is to teach the teachers when and where to introduce one of judo's signature techniques.' (wrote Billc above)

The reason to ban would be that the idiots and clueless have guidelines and the ones that might succumb through lack of sense or to competitive pressures have explicit guidelines.

We should avoid discussing the "banning" of a technique, because its dangerous...
Every throw is dangerous and can have fatal results. Maybe there is a reason, that some people see Jûdô as martial art...

So if we discuss "banning", then in long term we discuss to ban all throws, all strangles/chokes and all armlocks and all pins...

Instead maybe we should ban the use oft crash pads at youth training and similar things which prevent the kids to learn good ukemi...
Only when tori knows something about the feeling of being thrown at standard tatami, he can develop enough empathy and consideration ...

Fritz wrote:We should avoid discussing the "banning" of a technique, because its dangerous...
Every throw is dangerous and can have fatal results. Maybe there is a reason, that some people see Jûdô as martial art...

So if we discuss "banning", then in long term we discuss to ban all throws, all strangles/chokes and all armlocks and all pins...

Instead maybe we should ban the use oft crash pads at youth training and similar things which prevent the kids to learn good ukemi...
Only when tori knows something about the feeling of being thrown at standard tatami, he can develop enough empathy and consideration ...

The numbers of people that have died as a result of the techniques you cite is near zero from the last info I recall. The numbers seriously injured or killed due to concussion is the issue. And concussions come from big throws

I talked to a senior Tokyo sensei tonight and he said he thinks this may spur action to increase oversight. The kid has only recently begun jūdō.

It's easy ...

No competitions up to brown belt.

.

NBK wrote:The numbers of people that have died as a result of the techniques you cite is near zero from the last info I recall. The numbers seriously injured or killed due to concussion is the issue. And concussions come from big throws

I talked to a senior Tokyo sensei tonight and he said he thinks this may spur action to increase oversight.

I'm sure, if you ban one big throw, "they" will find the next throw and the next victim... :-/

NBK wrote:The kid has only recently begun jūdō.

May be they have to prepare the kids better with ukemi before the kids are allowed to act as uke?

Beside of this, here in Europe i've never heard, that a kid was killed during practice/competition via O-Soto-Gari or similiar,
but the unhealthy trend to shorten the time teaching/learning ukemi and to work with the throws very early i see here too... :-(

And, while teaching beginners, some very important aspect for us is to instruct the tori to give uke
some breakfall support/assistance during practices...

Anatol wrote:It's easy ...

No competitions up to brown belt.

.

Then we will start to see 5 year old brown belts.

Fritz wrote:We should avoid discussing the "banning" of a technique, because its dangerous...
Every throw is dangerous and can have fatal results. Maybe there is a reason, that some people see Jûdô as martial art...

Avoid the discussion ... no. The discussion is good, even necessary. Yes, all protestations that "judo is a sport" do indeed ignore the undeniable fact that judo has is also a martial art and its techniques have some level of danger involved. More, not less, criticism is good for judo. I am glad that Mizoguchi Sensei has continued the discussion and hope she has the backing to carry things through.

My problem with all of this is that there is precious little DATA for the conscientious teacher to work with. I have an OPINION based on my experience, I have anecdotal evidence such as the kind NBK offered here, I have the good fortune to have been trained myself as an instructor by people with broader experience ... but I have no report from any organization of any kind documenting injuries ... no Pareto chart which might indicate where problems are likely to occur. The JJAVA has a few reports ... a good but insufficient start http://judojiko.net/eng/download . Not an easy task at all, stats on head injuries in youth sports are a mess even when an attempt is made, and a medical assessment of the severity of concussion is barely above a guess. So it is a huge task, but one worth attacking if we are to stick to Kano shihan's vision.

Fritz you almost bring up another good point, one the Judo Forum frequently addressed and one that this forum could do as well ... the issue of "what do you call this throw?" When I took my shodan test way back when, I was challenged to demonstrate ten different throws which could properly be called "osotogari." So which do we ban? A proper osotogari with kuzushi, upper body control, good ukemi ability, and a proper falling surface just in case? Or a typical "plant the leg behind your partners leg and push with all your might to trip them, and when that doesn't work grab their head and fall down smashing their little heads into old wrestling mats on a concrete floor?" (that last one was not on my list, my test partner and I remain good friends)

So again please consider, there is no practical control in the judo world over what is taught in the dojo. But I wish people were less hesitant to shame those who intentionally teach bad judo.

Hi Bill

BillC wrote:

Anatol wrote:It's easy ...

No competitions up to brown belt.

.

Then we will start to see 5 year old brown belts.

No competitions up to brown belt and no brown belt under 15...

Wasn't so difficult :-)

.

Anatol wrote:Hi Bill

BillC wrote:

Anatol wrote:It's easy ...

No competitions up to brown belt.

.

Then we will start to see 5 year old brown belts.

No competitions up to brown belt and no brown belt under 15...

Wasn't so difficult :-)

.

Maybe with you on that to a certain extent ... but no, junior competitions done well for the right reasons are fun and beneficial. Besides, banning competition is not going to improve junior judo.

P.S. ... I am not big on belts. White belts and black belts are good enough for me ... and that ain't gonna happen either.

This disturbs the hell out of me, because I've never considered O soto gari a particularly dangerous technique and I think we're already way too far down the slippery slope of banning too many things for too many reasons.
In Quebec, morote gari and related techniques were banned for juniors early on, long before the IJF got around to doing it for dubious marketing reasons, and was ostensibly for safety.  Made no sense to me as a former wrestler.  Would pretty much mean banning wrestling completely for kids if it was so dangerous.  Then encircling the neck as in koshi guruma was banned, also ostensibly for safety, although I've never seen an injury result from it.  At the same time Maki-Komi was banned, which I can see but it's applied by the letter and not by the spirit.  I see multiple penalties for the "oh-so-dangerous" arm around the head grip (which ... NEVER sems to cause an injury) but again and again kids will clamp on and throw themsleves to the mat to complete a throw, frequently resulting in the loser going for a concussion evaluation, but not a whsiper from the referee unless the throw was a textbook, classic Soto-Maki-Komi suitable for grading evaluation.
The Japanese have run into trouble before, due to inexperienced instructors being used to flesh the needs of teaching judo to a complete school system.  Maybe that is is the case here.  Most likely it is a matter of rushing too quickly into throwing practice before the student has sufficient proficiency in ukemi.
Hopefully the lesson here will simply be a reinforcement of the sound principles of ukemi before nage waza, qualified instruction at all levels and good supervision.  It deeply saddening that a child must die to remind people of the most basic of principles.
I hope it does not continue the trend of banning valid waza willy-nilly for spurious reasons based on strong opinions backed up by little or no data.

NBK wrote:You're close enough.  A young girl, practicing with another junior before a Fukuoka tournament, hit the back of her head and her neck when thrown with ôsotogari, lost consciousness, and died without ever recovering consciousness.  There was bleeding in her brain.

The All Japan Judo Federation (ZenJûRen) dispatched a serious incident investigation team.  Detailed information is hard to establish.  

The article headline starts with the question 'Should Ôsotogari be Banished in Youth Jûdô?'  

I'd like to hear others' opinion on the question.  Perhaps really young competitors perhaps should be restricted from using ôsotogari; the temptation to resist beyond the ability to take the fall is too much for many kids.  Other techniques are restricted from juniors, why not ôsotogari?  

NBK

I think it would depend on age and experience level of the kids.

I don't teach Osoto Gari to young kids (6-10, more or less). I think it is too difficult to do correctly (standing on one leg). I've seen little kids hit their heads (weak neck muscles and lack of ukemi skill) when thrown with it too many time.

That and "Osoto Gari" wars in shiai and randori.

BillC wrote:It's a dangerous technique, and ironically often the first taught ... poorly I have observed ... to beginners ... because they don't have to turn around.

The problem is more fundamental.

I recall an exchange during the referee and coaches' meeting at a recent national judo tournament.  It went something like ...

Head referee: "... and 'drop knee seoinage' is forbidden for juniors, penalty is hansokumake."
A well-known coach:  "What?  That is our kids' bread and butter, you can't do that."
HR:  "Well, the rules are the rules and that is what the organizers and I agreed."
WKC:  "... but it was not on the entry documents or any of the announcements ..."
HR:  "... never the less, these are the rules and you have to do as I say ..."
WKC "... this is a USA Judo points events, so the IJF rules have to be followed ..."
HR:  "... it doesn't matter, this is the local rule for the tournament ..."
WKC:  "... let's call USA Judo and tell them to pull the points because the rules are not being followed ..."

etc. ...

At some point there was an angry exchange ...

HR:  "... maybe you should teach your kids to do judo and not just grab hold and drop ..."
WKC:  "... so now you are saying I'm a bad coach?"

I think at this point Gary Goltz wisely jumped in well ahead of a fistfight ... but the necessary answer was never heard with any authority.

Never heard:  "YES, YOU ARE A BAD COACH FOR TEACHING DANGEROUS TECHNIQUE AND BAD JUDO FOR THE SAKE OF GAINING MEANINGLESS MEDALS FOR TEN-YEAR-OLDS (so national organizations can pass around ego points for parents and tournament revenue for well-connected orgs, clubs and individuals)."

Ultimately the organizers were forced to cave in or lose the points value for the event.  Why they didn't give USA Judo the middle finger from the most judo-intensive State in the Union I do not know.

Point is ... whether or not osotogari should be banned is a good discussion, but it won't do much to improve the overall competence of judo instructors.  It won't teach instructors to understand the limitations of young players ... physical and emotional ... and to protect them against a judo competition system that puts kids in way, way over their candy-apple, perched-on-pencil-neck heads at much too young an age.  Once upon a time there seems to have been an understanding in judo that certain techniques were better taught first ... not because they were easy to score with ... but because they were better at preventing injury to uke.  So banning osotogari might be quick and seemingly easy, but the better task is to teach the teachers when and where to introduce one of judo's signature techniques.

Well written and I agree completely, Bill. USA Judo et al are still sorely lacking in that realm...

Fritz wrote:We should avoid discussing the "banning" of a technique, because its dangerous...
Every throw is dangerous and can have fatal results. Maybe there is a reason, that some people see Jûdô as martial art...

So if we discuss "banning", then in long term we discuss to ban all throws, all strangles/chokes and all armlocks and all pins...

Instead maybe we should ban the use oft crash pads at youth training and similar things which prevent the kids to learn good ukemi...
Only when tori knows something about the feeling of being thrown at standard tatami, he can develop enough empathy and consideration ...

I disagree, discussion is good. As BillC pointed out, it's not the throw per se, it's who and when it is taught too appropriately for age/skill/ level, or not, as is usuall the case.

NBK wrote:

Fritz wrote:We should avoid discussing the "banning" of a technique, because its dangerous...
Every throw is dangerous and can have fatal results. Maybe there is a reason, that some people see Jûdô as martial art...

So if we discuss "banning", then in long term we discuss to ban all throws, all strangles/chokes and all armlocks and all pins...

Instead maybe we should ban the use oft crash pads at youth training and similar things which prevent the kids to learn good ukemi...
Only when tori knows something about the feeling of being thrown at standard tatami, he can develop enough empathy and consideration ...

The numbers of people that have died as a result of the techniques you cite is near zero from the last info I recall. The numbers seriously injured or killed due to concussion is the issue. And concussions come from big throws  

I talked to a senior Tokyo sensei tonight and he said he thinks this may spur action to increase oversight.  The kid has only recently begun jūdō.

Emphasis mine...

There you go...

BillC wrote:

Anatol wrote:It's easy ...

No competitions up to brown belt.

.

Then we will start to see 5 year old brown belts.

Well, she is a "triple crown" winner, why shouldn't she be a brown belt ?????

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Fritz wrote:We should avoid discussing the "banning" of a technique, because its dangerous...
Every throw is dangerous and can have fatal results. Maybe there is a reason, that some people see Jûdô as martial art...

So if we discuss "banning", then in long term we discuss to ban all throws, all strangles/chokes and all armlocks and all pins...

Instead maybe we should ban the use oft crash pads at youth training and similar things which prevent the kids to learn good ukemi...
Only when tori knows something about the feeling of being thrown at standard tatami, he can develop enough empathy and consideration ...

I disagree, discussion is good. As BillC pointed out, it's not the throw per se, it's who and when it is taught too appropriately for age/skill/ level, or not, as is usuall the case.

No problem, if we discuss things like the responsibility of the coach, if we discuss the need to learn proper Ukemi,
if we discuss to encourage the kids to take care of their Uke while practicing...
Like done in this thread...

But i dislike discussions about "banning" a technique...
If we "ban" techniques because of an accident but the things mentioned above keep still questionable,
then we will "ban" the next technique after the next accident... And so forth...
In conclusion, in the end we can ban the whole Judo crap, in long term all fighting sport must be banned :-(

Fritz wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Fritz wrote:We should avoid discussing the "banning" of a technique, because its dangerous...
Every throw is dangerous and can have fatal results. Maybe there is a reason, that some people see Jûdô as martial art...

So if we discuss "banning", then in long term we discuss to ban all throws, all strangles/chokes and all armlocks and all pins...

Instead maybe we should ban the use oft crash pads at youth training and similar things which prevent the kids to learn good ukemi...
Only when tori knows something about the feeling of being thrown at standard tatami, he can develop enough empathy and consideration ...

I disagree, discussion is good. As BillC pointed out, it's not the throw per se, it's who and when it is taught too appropriately for age/skill/ level, or not, as is usuall the case.

No problem, if we discuss things like the responsibility of the coach, if we discuss the need to learn proper Ukemi,
if we discuss to encourage the kids to take care of their Uke while practicing...
Like done in this thread...

But i dislike discussions about "banning" a technique...  
If we "ban" techniques because of an accident but the things mentioned above keep still questionable,
then we will "ban" the next technique after the next accident... And so forth...
In conclusion, in the end we can ban the whole Judo crap, in long term all fighting sport must be banned :-(

Seriously, you know that you can get thrown with many throws, including Osoto Gari, in such a way as to not be able to take effective ukemi, don't you?

Ben Reinhardt wrote:Seriously, you know that you can get thrown with many throws, including Osoto Gari, in such a way as to not be able to take effective ukemi, don't you?

Exactly, thats what i mean... there are lots of throws which can be thrown so, that Uke has serious problems. If we discuss banning O-Soto-Gari (which is one of such throw), then we will discuss banning every other of such throws in future. (And maybe, every throw can be thrown dangerously)

Do you understand my point now?

Fritz wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:Seriously, you know that you can get thrown with many throws, including Osoto Gari, in such a way as to not be able to take effective ukemi, don't you?

Exactly, thats what i mean... there are lots of throws which can be thrown so, that Uke has serious problems. If we discuss banning O-Soto-Gari (which is one of such throw), then we will discuss banning every other of such throws in future. (And maybe, every throw can be thrown dangerously)

Do you understand my point now?

I understood your point, however, you keep harping on learning proper ukemi...

I'm willing to bet that the dead girl got thrown in such a manner as to which ukemi was useless.

So what is your problem with discussion regardless of how many throws are involved ? Do you think we will end up doing away with Judo in the end or some thing ?

Oh, and I'm all for talking about age and skill level appropriate training progressions, coach responsibility, etc etc. Banning I don't think will be an important part of the discussion at all.

So, I do not think that Osoto Gari should be taught as a "first throw" as is commonly done.

Standing on one leg is enough, trying to control effectively/safely your own body and uke while doing so is kind of...unrealistic.

It is a throw that is not commonly very effective in it's "pure" form in randori or competition.

Of course, Osoto Gari is an important throw, and should be taught and practiced, eventually by everyone who is physically able to do so safely.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:I understood your point, however, you keep harping on learning proper ukemi...

Not only, correct behavior of Tori too...

I'm willing to bet that the dead girl got thrown in such a manner as to which ukemi was useless.

Both were beginners if i remember... so its very disturbing, if a beginner is able to throw O-S-G in such way...

So what is your problem with discussion regardless of how many throws are involved ? Do you think we will end up doing away with Judo  in the end or some thing ?

Yes...

Oh, and I'm all for talking about age and skill level appropriate training progressions, coach responsibility, etc etc. Banning I don't think will be an important part of the discussion at all.

Yes... that i said... but i read the word "banning" in the very first responses ;-)

Ben Reinhardt wrote:So, I do not think that Osoto Gari should be taught as a "first throw" as is commonly done.

Standing on one leg is enough, trying to control effectively/safely your own body and uke while doing so is kind of...unrealistic.

It is a throw that is not commonly very effective in it's "pure" form in randori or competition.

Of course, Osoto Gari is an important throw, and should be taught and practiced, eventually by everyone who is physically able to do so safely.

On the other side O-S-G or throwing efforts resembling O-S-G are stuff, the kids find out be their own, during first randoris... Something its the
only thing the find out by themselves, get some "success" against the other kids until they have learned some resistance and
then we have ugly leg hooking "fights"
- So yes, O-S-G should not be teached  first...

I guess Fritz and I are the only ones with an opinion to share here...

BTW Fritz, yeah, avoiding the ugly leg hooking contest is another issue.

And regarding beginners being able to do a dangerous Osoto Gari, I've seen it and had it done to me, partially dislocated my shoulder a long, long time ago.