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    Can anyone help me get the info from that "Sensible weightlifting routine for Judo"-thread?

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    NYCNewbie


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    Can anyone help me get the info from that "Sensible weightlifting routine for Judo"-thread? Empty Can anyone help me get the info from that "Sensible weightlifting routine for Judo"-thread?

    Post by NYCNewbie Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:33 pm

    You guys remember- the one from Gant that spelled out a solid weightlifting/workout routine for Judoka...It was based on Starting Strength and there was a 5-page thread about it back on the old JudoF*rum (I can't bring myself to actually write the name of that garbage site). Of course now I can't get access to it- clicking on it doesn't work (surprise) so there's no reading it on there. Did anyone copy it/cut-n-paste it? If so, can someone please help me by posting it here?

    I appreciate it.
    cuivien
    cuivien


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    Post by cuivien Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:46 pm

    the original post by Gant:

    It's getting to be that time again. A lot of "rate my program" questions are popping up. So, rather than be tacky and talk about how crappy most of this stuff is like I usually do--thus getting more negative feedback--here is a program.

    This is what I recommend to the judoka I know who are starting a weight routine for the first time. This doesn't mean they haven't used weights; it means I haven't been around them while they're doing it, so I need a baseline. This also doesn't mean they aren't strong. If you bench 275 for reps, I'll still start you on this program.

    Here is a two-day per week lifting program. If you work hard on this for 6-12 months, you will be stronger than 95% of the people who spout silly things on this forum (the other 5% have already done something similar to this). Notation is sets x reps (3x5 is 3 sets of 5 reps).

    A:
    Power clean 5x2
    Squat 3x5
    Bench 3x5
    Chin 3x10-15

    B:
    Power clean 5x2
    Squat 3x5 (or front squat 5x3)
    Press 3x5
    Deadlift 1x5


    Program notes:
    * You do this. That's it. I'd recommend another day or two of agility work, complexes, and sprints/prowler work, but that's another topic.
    * You add a bit of weight to powercleans each week (not every day). It should feel a little lighter on B day. This is practice day.
    * You can back squat both days if you want (that's what I recommend starting out). If you feel tweaked, if deadlifting is hard after squatting, or if you just want to front squat, then you can alternate.
    * If you can do 3x15 dead hang chins, then you need to add weight to keep the reps between 10 and 15.
    * If you have extra time at the end, do farmers walks. Great ROI.
    * All work sets sets are "sets across" (same weight for each set). Do 3-4 warmup sets (always start with the empty bar) to get there.
    * Add ten pounds per week to squat, five pounds per week to your presses, and 5 or fewer pounds per week to power clean.
    * Once the weights feel heavy the gains slow, work for 3 weeks and deload for 1 week.
    E.g. for squats:
    week 1 405x5x3
    week 2 415x5x3
    week 3 425x5x3
    week 4 225x5x3 (or go play soccer)
    week 5 435x5x3 (or 425x5x3 if you need to)
    etc.
    ***When you record your workouts, it is weight x reps x sets. I'm not sure why this is, but it is.

    FAQ:
    Q: This looks very similar to Starting Strength.
    A: It looks like that for two reasons. One, SS being good and me being lazy, I see no need to change. Two, I have been friends with and trained at the author's gym since the late 90s (with a short break in there somewhere). I have discussed the tweaks I use for judo players. This is the result.

    Q: What happens when I can't add weight any longer?
    A: Ask when you get there. Most don't.

    Q: Can I do...?
    A: Maybe. But if you're asking because you don't know the answer, stick with the above until you sort things out.

    Q&A from following:
    Q: Is there a specific percentage to the amount of weight you remove when deloading?
    A: Typically 50-60%. If you get too heavy the stress you incur can be significant enough to cause adaptation, which is what you're trying to avoid. It's basically active rest. You practice the movement but don't stress yourself. If you want to play soccer or tennis (or just do judo), that's fine, too.

    Q: What do you recommend for rest time between sets? Same for warmup sets? Do all sets of one exercise before moving to the next or alternate exercises?
    A: Whatever you need. When working for strength, you want to recover well between sets. At first, you may be able to rest 30 seconds before you're ready to squat again. Once the weight gets heavy, you may need up to 5-6 minutes. Most people tend to rest between 3-5 minutes between moderate work sets.

    Q1: How do you determine the starting weight to use for the various exercises?
    As much as I can handle? 70% of my 1 rep max?
    A1:Err on the light side. Do 2-3 warmup sets of 5 to get a feel. Your first 3x5 should feel easy. Technique should be good, the bar should move quickly, and you shouldn't have to spend a lot of time resting between sets. 3x5 takes a toll on the body. It will take several sessions to get used to it. Don't think of light sessions as a waste of time; think of them as practice. If you're adding ten pounds a clip, the bar will get heavy very soon.

    Q2: Power clean. I am not sure about the technique. I have tried to do it based on a few descriptions I found and some youtube videos, but I am not confident enough about my technique to try with weights heavier than what I can easily lift "normally". Is there a good, reliable reference on the technique? Compared to a progressive pick up from the floor, how much weight should I work with? Let's say I can pick up 100kg from the floor, how much should I try for a power clean?
    A2: There are several good reference sites, including Catalyst Athletics and the Glenn Pendlay/California Strength site. It's obviously better to have someone coach you, but some people do quite well just with references. At some point, you'll want someone to watch you, even if you have to tell them what to look for, e.g. "Watch this rep. The bar should move in a straight line. Tell me if it moves up in a line or if I'm pushing it out to the front."

    Q3: warm-up and/or cardio before lifting? What kind of warm-up do you normally do before lifting?
    A3: No cardio for warmup. Some people suggest that you burn more fat if you do cardio before weight training. These people are pasty and weak and have chronic halitosis. If you're lifting to get strong, then don't do anything compromises you getting strong (like doing cardio before weight training).

    Ideal warmup: something that warms up the body. Really. Mobility prep, prehab, rowing, gymnastics movements (dip/squat/chinup). If you want to do foam rolling, band work, or other crap, do it between your warm up (or even work sets on cleans and squats). Save the stretching for later. Or never. Mobility>flexibility.

    A point that needs to be clarified. In the strength training world, intensity is expressed as a percentage of your 1 rep max. If your max squat is 100 kg, and you're squatting 90kg, you are working at 90% of your 1RM. This would be a greater training intensity than if you were squatting 80%, or 80 kg.

    There are also some exercisers that express intensity as a function of perceived exertion, how hard it feels, or how fast you go. This is subjective. It's also difficult to measure. If you go to concentric failure (you can't push up another rep), that's approximately 100% intensity (maybe less if you're using low rep ranges). But how do you measure 90%? 80%?

    Training is an individual thing, so y'all can call stuff whatever you want as long as you keep it straight. Just be aware of what these things mean if you're discussing it with others.

    Q: what exactly is adaption, and why do you want to avoid it?
    A: Sport and exercise guys like to cite Hans Seyle's theory of General Adaptation Syndrome, which holds that your body reacts to stress by adapting to it. I don't know why people still cite it; it's common sense that if you walk around without shoes every day, your feet become calloused.

    Progressive overload in strength training is gradually increasing the stress placed on the body. The goal, of course, is to cause the body to adapt by getting stronger. All adaptations are not equal. Squatting 3x5 causes different adaptations than leg pressing 5x15 with a short rest period.

    Adaptation is a positive thing, but your body can only adapt to so much stress (limited by biological factors, sleep, diet, etc.). The point of a deload week is to give your body a break and allow it to recover (you grow when you're resting, not training). You should deload to the point where your training is light enough to not cause adaptation. While reps at 50-60% intensity CAN cause adaptation, they are not the same kind of adaptations we are seeking when doing heavy sets of 3x5, so you're cool there.

    The takeaway is that the deload week allows you to practice movement and promote active recovery while allowing your body some semblence of rest for the purposes of recovery and growth. Younger folks can get by without deloading, but most guys I know who lift heavy or have some miles on them really love their deload weeks.
    cuivien
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    Post by cuivien Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:47 pm

    Once you have exhausted linear gains, move to an intermediate program. You can use something like Texas method that cycles through volume days, light days, and intensity days. Or you can do something like Wendler's 531, which, IMO is ideal. [I'm not going to explain the mechanics or theories behind Rippetoe's Starting Strength, the Texas Method, or Wendler's 531. Buy the books).

    What next? My routine can be used as an intermediate program (using 531 for sqauat, bench, press, and deadlift). I designed it this way on purpose.

    **********

    So, together we have:

    The Texoma Judo Novice Strength Program

    * Based on Rippetoe's Starting Strength-modified.
    * Three weeks on, one week deload. Work to the stall, then reset once.

    A:
    Power clean 5x2
    Squat 3x5
    Bench 3x5
    Chin 3x10-15

    B:
    Power clean 5x2
    Squat 3x5 (or front squat 5x3)
    Press 3x5
    Deadlift 1x5

    **********
    The Texoma Judo Intermediate Strength Program

    * Based on Wendler's 531 for the power lifts.
    * Based on Grimes' scheme for Olympic lifts.
    * Notated as week1/week2/week3. Week 4 is deload.

    A:
    Power snatch 6x2/6x2/3x2,5x1 (work for heaviest set)
    Squat 1x5+/1x3+/1x5,1x3,1x1+/deload
    Bench 1x5+/1x3+/1x5,1x3,1x1+/deload
    Weighted chins 3x5-10

    B:
    Power clean: 10@60s/10@75s/10@90s (same weight every set. Reps are done on the @ interval. e.g. 1 per 60sec, etc.)
    Front squat 5x3/7x2/10x1 (work to heaviest set)
    Press 1x5+/1x3+/1x5,1x3,1x1+/deload
    Deadlift 1x5+/1x3+/1x5,1x3,1x1+/deload

    **********

    The above program is guaranteed to make you awesome. You're on your own for agility work, conditioning, mobility, and all the other stuff. Single-side work, kettlebell stuff, ropes, implements, sprints, complexes...it's all good, and I use it, but I'm not getting into it here.
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    Post by NYCNewbie Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:23 pm

    Thanks a million bro.

    Btw- have you tried this? If so, any luck?
    cuivien
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    Post by cuivien Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:09 pm

    Yeah, I'm on something similar, only I have switched to front squat for a while to fix my technique. Once I hit 200-ish lbs on regular squat, my posture goes to hell, so working my way up to that range again with front squat to make sure I don't lean too much forward.
    Also, I've stopped putting on more weight on power clean because I'm waiting for my friend who's actually good at Olympic lifts to get back from his exchange program and correct my technique (currently doing sets at 140-145 lbs)

    Unfortunately, I have very little time after work (paradoxical seeing how much free time I have while at work), so some times I don't have time to do all the lifts. Nevertheless, doing the "main" (i.e. either bench or squat) + one of the extras is a must.

    At roughly 90kg (200lbs) bodyweight my PR's are (numbers from just before Christmas):
    Bench: 92,5kg (203lbs)
    Squat: 110kg (242lbs)
    Front squat: 95kg (209lbs)
    Deadlift: 167,5kg (368,5lbs)
    Can't remember my overhead press, think it's something like 52,5kg (115lbs)

    I've stalled at bench press, but pretty much everything else are going steadily forwards. For someone who just wants to go to the gym, just do the lifts and get stronger, then get the fsck out it's perfect.
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    Post by NYCNewbie Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:10 am

    What I need is something I can do twice a week and- combined with 30 minutes of cardio each time- get the FUCK out of there in one hour and fifteen minutes. I don't want to spend more than 45 minutes on lifting each time I go to the gym.

    I HATE the gym- so even going twice a week is a big deal for me.

    Do you do cardio as well? I know Gant says not to do it but I HAVE to do it- I can't go to the gym without getting on the elliptical machine for half an hour first...

    Anyway...

    Are you noticing strength gains? What's your personal feeling about this program?

    And also- do you know how to do Deadlifts and Powercleans correctly? I don't- at all.

    I don't even really know how to do squats the right way lol...

    cuivien
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    Post by cuivien Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:41 pm

    I'm gonna split my reply in two here, otherwise stuff will get lost Smile

    Part 1 (this) is a direct reply, part 2 (next post) is a technical review of the base lifts.

    What I need is something I can do twice a week and- combined with 30 minutes of cardio each time- get the FUCK out of there in one hour and fifteen minutes. I don't want to spend more than 45 minutes on lifting each time I go to the gym.
    I HATE the gym- so even going twice a week is a big deal for me.

    Dude, skip the 30 min elliptical. NOW. Do 5 min of rowing (machine), get a foam roller (less than 10$ if your gym doesn't already have one), and do some exercises like these Youtube - dynamic warm-up. Should MAX take 15-20 min total, plus it's better, and way way way way more fun than regular cardio.

    Do you do cardio as well? I know Gant says not to do it but I HAVE to do it- I can't go to the gym without getting on the elliptical machine for half an hour first...

    It depends. I NEVER do long-lasting cardio plus heavy lifting. If I do cardio at all, it's either something like Tabata which takes place AFTER the lifts, or I dedicate a separate day to run something like 10-12-15km.

    Are you noticing strength gains? What's your personal feeling about this program?

    Yes. Quite substantial. Even though I've not been the most diligent lifter (holidays, binge drinking, influenza, etc) I've gone from barely squeezing out 3 reps at 120kg deadlift in mid-August, to 3 reps at 160kg before going on X-mas holiday. Same with bench. For years, I've been avoiding the weight section in general, but whenever I venture into it, I've done 3 sets of 10 reps @ 60kg. I didn't even know what my personal best was lol.

    My personal feelings? I love this. I love the feeling of starting an hour-long mixtape on my ipod when exiting the locker-room, lifting with a purpose, sitting down to just rest (and maybe look at some bouncing gym-babes Wink ), lifting some more, and be back in the locker-room before the end of the tape, with supreme knowledge of the fact that that hour gave me better gains than the morons that spend 3 hours in the gym doing a gajillion reps of bicep curls and 30 sets with the thigh master.
    cuivien
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    Post by cuivien Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:24 pm

    Part 2 (base lifts):

    Bench press

    Check-list:
    1) Squeeze your shoulders down and back. Imagine that there's a pencil stuck between your shoulder-blades. That pencil should still be there until you put the weight back in the rack.
    2) Place your feet properly. Put them down slightly more than shoulder-width apart, the entire sole of your foot to the floor, and try to have 80-90 degrees angle in the knee joint.
    3) Grip the bar and SQUEEZE. SQUEEZE! Also, force a straight wrist.
    4) Vertical forearms. A narrow grip focuses more on triceps, a wide grip focuses more on the chest (but add risk of injury to the shoulders)
    5) The bar should be directly above your eyes, so when you lift it off it should naturally be somewhere around your neck/upper chest.
    6) Flex your back so that the elbows turn slightly inwards.
    7) Fix your gaze somewhere in the ceiling, usually slightly in front of you.
    8 ) On the way down, the bar should be lowered in a controlled fashion. Think AT LEAST 3-5 sec.
    9) On the way up, lift explosively!
    10) If you've followed all of these, pat self on back.

    If you stall somewhere, here's what's wrong:
    - You stall just above the chest: Your pectoralis are too weak. a) less weight on bar; b) bench press with dumbbells; c) try floor press
    - You stall mid-way: deltoids are too weak. a) overhead press; b) bench press with board on chest, forcing you to begin the lift from around mid-way
    - You stall just before lockout: triceps are too weak. do dips. lots of them.

    P.S. An awesome exercise for stronger bench is the reverse row, also known as the "female version of pull-ups". Feet on bench, place bar in proper height, hang from bar, and pull yourself up with chest touching the bar. I've seen people lifting 400+ lbs in bench press who can't do more than 4-5 reps of this Very Happy

    Squat
    Look at your body in the mirror. Look at relative length of your femur bone. A long femur complicates things.
    Can anyone help me get the info from that "Sensible weightlifting routine for Judo"-thread? Femur

    Key elements to a proper squat is:
    1) Feet. for most people they should be around the same width as your shoulders and 20-30-ish degrees outwards, if you have a long femur you might have to stand with a wider base to avoid excessive traveling of the knee.
    2) The bar. Shoulders back, the bar should rest on your trapezius muscle. Also, think elbows under bar, not backwards.
    2) Center of gravity. Should be towards your heels, NOT TOES. Thus, the movement has to start from the hip.
    3) Depth. Every time you perform a shallow (i.e. less than 90 degrees) squat, baby Jebus kills a kitten. Think "ass to grass".

    Do this test. Can you squat like this? If not;

    1) remove shoes. alternatively, get Fivefingers Very Happy
    2) do box squats
    3) STRETCH! the key ones are: a)piriformis stretch; b) squat to stand; c)spiderman stretch

    Can anyone help me get the info from that "Sensible weightlifting routine for Judo"-thread? Bekken
    (also, if you have the situation on the right in this picture, you need to stretch your hamstrings.)


    here's a video showing IMO close to perfect technique.
    youtube - how to squat


    Front squat
    Almost similar to a regular squat, but theoretically different activation of muscle-groups. Front squat is said to activate the front of the thigh more, and the ass less. However, the difference is negligible IMO.

    How to:
    1) The bar should be above collar bone, on the muscle. arms forwards and inwards before you lift off.
    2) Start the descent by pushing the hip out and flexing the knee joint. Also, focus on elbows UP throughout the movement.
    3) The entire motion should be performed in a more upright fashion than a normal squat.

    Typical errors:
    1) Weight on shoulders
    2) Same motion as regular squat, i.e. ass comes out too far behind.
    3) Back comes/leans forward
    4) Knees tilt inwards.
    How to fix: reduce weight, refocus on technique. If this doesn't help, have a friend kick you in the nuts every time you make mistakes. This goes for all the other exercises as well.

    Deadlift
    Mother of all exercises.
    Muscles used:
    Can anyone help me get the info from that "Sensible weightlifting routine for Judo"-thread? Muscles-used-deadlift

    Look at your body (again).
    Short upper body, but long legs? You might have to do sumo deadlifts. I don't really know how to do those, so google it.
    If normal body, or ideally you have long arms, deadlift is your friend.
    People who are afraid to do this because it might hurt their back are (unless they have had multiple back surgeries, fused discs, or are 60+ years old) pitiful creatures.

    Common mistakes:
    1) Curved back
    2) Hip placed too high, forcing strain on lower back
    3) Hip placed too low, creating a hybrid between the up-going part of a squat and a deadlift
    4) Too little activation of legs
    5) Arms bent

    How to perform a proper lift:
    1) Feet. Roughly shoulder-width apart. Toes can be pointed outwards a bit, not more than 45 degrees.
    2) Shin. Bend knees so that the shin bone touches the bar.
    3) Grip. Grip the bar outside of the legs, arms straight. GRIP AS HARD AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. Always work with a regular grip at first (pronated), when that fails switch to cross-grip (i.e. one side under, one side over). Remember to switch sides every set when doing cross-grip to avoid unbalancing of muscle strain, particularly on biceps brachii. Never use straps or gloves. Invest in chalk if necessary, but strictly speaking it shouldn't be for people who do judo.
    4) Breath. Take a deep breath before beginning the lift. Some people advocate that you should push the stomach out, I advise against it. Just tighten the abs maximally.
    5) Chest up, shoulders down and back to activate the erector spinae and lattisimus dorsi.
    6) Eyes. Look at a fixed point in front of you, maybe 5-10 meters.
    7) The actual lift. Force should come through the heels. The back should be in the same angle until the bar has cleared the knees. From this point you gradually extend the hip making the femur more vertical.
    8 ) The finishing point of the lift is by maximum contraction of gluteus maximus in a upraised position. Don't hyperextend the back.
    9) Down again. Start by bending the hip. Ass back.
    10) Before doing another rep, let the weight fully rest on the floor. It's called deadlift for a reason, thus no bouncing the weight off the floor to cheat.


    *phew*
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    Post by NYCNewbie Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:20 am

    Thanks bro.

    VERY cool of you to give me all that info- I really appreciate it.
    cuivien
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    Post by cuivien Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:50 am

    No problem Smile

    Like I said before, I'm not confident when it comes to power cleans, so didn't write anything on that subject. But feel free to ask about everything else, I'll try to answer Smile

    Hope it'll be useful (perhaps even for others who venture into this thread) Smile

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