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JudoTerrier
Neil G
Dutch Budo
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annmaria
Cichorei Kano
judoratt
genetic judoka
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Stacey
Ricebale
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    ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche

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    annmaria


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    Post by annmaria Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:47 pm

    I asked her why she didn't do that. She said after Carmouche slipped out the first time when she was going into matwork and got on her back, she decided she was not going to attempt a second arm bar until she was able to lock it in really tight, so she didn't go for the ude garami because she didn't feel that she had Liz held as tightly as she would like to be 100% sure of the submission
    genetic judoka
    genetic judoka


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    Post by genetic judoka Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:53 pm

    annmaria wrote:I asked her why she didn't do that. She said after Carmouche slipped out the first time when she was going into matwork and got on her back, she decided she was not going to attempt a second arm bar until she was able to lock it in really tight, so she didn't go for the ude garami because she didn't feel that she had Liz held as tightly as she would like to be 100% sure of the submission
    thanks, it's awesome to get some inside commentary.
    genetic judoka
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    Post by genetic judoka Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:40 pm

    also while we're on the subject, is there any chance of talking Ronda into creating an account here?
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


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    Post by Cichorei Kano Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:17 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:also while we're on the subject, is there any chance of talking Ronda into creating an account here?

    Rondadori rocks !!! goodjob
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    Shindai Warrior


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    Post by Shindai Warrior Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:50 pm

    annmaria wrote:I asked her why she didn't do that. She said after Carmouche slipped out the first time when she was going into matwork and got on her back, she decided she was not going to attempt a second arm bar until she was able to lock it in really tight, so she didn't go for the ude garami because she didn't feel that she had Liz held as tightly as she would like to be 100% sure of the submission

    I thought the kesa gatame worked very well. Tactically, it allowed Rhonda to demonstrate control and dominance, to soften Carmouche a little physically but even more so psychologically.

    After being held helplessly and realizing Rhonda could, with her free hand, punch her in the face at will, Carmouche began to sense her time to surrender was closing in and it did.

    Dominating the mind of uke is, I believe, as much a purpose of a ground hold as is the physical domination.

    Davaro
    Davaro


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    Post by Davaro Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:28 pm

    Ricebale wrote:Ronda also spoke about the adjustment in mma whereby she doesn't have to rush submissions, she stated the reason she missed the first attempt was her judo reflex to attempt an immediate finish

    Interesting this.... I have found the same, and received the same comments when I was training with some MMA/BJJ guys. I would try to rush the application and they would be all chess-like.

    Also, when working in Gi, the "rush application" of techniques takes the guys a little off guard... But, causes me to gas quickly and then they just play around with me.

    I followed this fight on twitter, with my phone, while fishing off the rocks around 6am Sunday morning here...

    Refresh button a bit worn out on the old Blackberry. Esp when Liz had was sounded like an almost closed rear-naked at one point.

    All the best to Ronda (Hope she starts an account here, would be great!)
    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:36 pm

    Stacey wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:
    Ronda also spoke about the adjustment in mma whereby she doesn't have to rush submissions, she stated the reason she missed the first attempt was her judo reflex to attempt an immediate finish

    Yeah, I heard that. Thought that was quite an important observation, and one that could only be made by a person accomplished in both sports. I'd love to hear more comparisons.

    I did BJJ before I did Judo. I noticed this at Judo training and in my first Judo comp I was very taken aback by how I was forced to give up an advantage position due to "inactivity".

    Since doing MMA I have found there is a balance as in MMA you get more time to apply a sub than Judo but not as much time as BJJ. You sort of need the set up of BJJ and the explosion of Judo subs to rip it off properly in modern MMA. Possibly why the straight arm bar is not used as much anymore, most subs are chokes either RNC or Guillotines.
    JudoStu
    JudoStu


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    Post by JudoStu Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:00 pm

    I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know Smile
    Davaro
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    Post by Davaro Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:31 pm

    JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know Smile

    I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"

    Like forward throws as well... I hear often the argument that the back will be taken but I dont see this when people well versed do the throws. Sure, a loose throw, or a loose Kesa will probably result in the back being taken but not generally when done by experienced Judoka.
    JudoStu
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    Post by JudoStu Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:28 am

    Davaro wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know Smile

    I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"


    Not easy to do but probably easier without the gi, also there has to be a reason that we don't often see Kesa Gatame used in MMA
    Dutch Budo
    Dutch Budo


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    Post by Dutch Budo Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:51 am

    Her tendency to grab around the head will cause her to lose a fight somewhere in the future. It almost happened in this one, which would have been disastrous for women mma. That or a well placed punch on closing the distance. These are two things she needs to work on.
    Neil G
    Neil G


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    Post by Neil G Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:16 am

    Regarding the wardrobe - I read that she was using her weigh-in bra at the request of somebody or other and it didn't work out. She said "So next time, bigger bra".
    genetic judoka
    genetic judoka


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    Post by genetic judoka Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:33 am

    Neil G wrote:Regarding the wardrobe - I read that she was using her weigh-in bra at the request of somebody or other and it didn't work out. She said "So next time, bigger bra".
    her weigh in bra? really? wow. I mean how much weight difference is there between the heaviest non-novelty sports bra and the lightest?
    genetic judoka
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    Post by genetic judoka Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:40 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    Davaro wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know Smile

    I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"


    Not easy to do but probably easier without the gi, also there has to be a reason that we don't often see Kesa Gatame used in MMA
    one thing I've found in my admittedly brief time in BJJ, is that despite the commentary from green belt friends who also do BJJ elsewhere about it being dangerous, nobody can budge me when I get into kesa. I could stay there the whole round were it not for the emphasis on going for submissions. and yet I can take many people's backs fairly easily when they put me in kesa. I guess what it comes down to is being good at kesa.

    in fact I can say with reasonable confidence that a majority of the people who say don't go for kesa, are people who don't know how to actively move while on top in kesa. in fact why did she get her back taken? because the fence got in the way of moving properly.

    one could say that rolling for a juji when you're on top is dangerous, because after all you're giving up top position for a sub that may or may not work. but if you're good at juji the risk is worth it because your odds are better. I guess it's the same concept really. if you're not good at something it's always dangerous to attempt against a skilled opponent.
    Stacey
    Stacey


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    Post by Stacey Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:28 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    Neil G wrote:Regarding the wardrobe - I read that she was using her weigh-in bra at the request of somebody or other and it didn't work out. She said "So next time, bigger bra".
    her weigh in bra? really? wow. I mean how much weight difference is there between the heaviest non-novelty sports bra and the lightest?

    It's not a matter of weight - it's a matter of styling and advertising. As she experienced, and as we saw with the "taking the back" bit, there's a difference between clothing meant for fighting and clothing that is merely a fashion statement.
    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:33 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:
    Davaro wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know Smile

    I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"


    Not easy to do but probably easier without the gi, also there has to be a reason that we don't often see Kesa Gatame used in MMA
    one thing I've found in my admittedly brief time in BJJ, is that despite the commentary from green belt friends who also do BJJ elsewhere about it being dangerous, nobody can budge me when I get into kesa. I could stay there the whole round were it not for the emphasis on going for submissions. and yet I can take many people's backs fairly easily when they put me in kesa. I guess what it comes down to is being good at kesa.

    in fact I can say with reasonable confidence that a majority of the people who say don't go for kesa, are people who don't know how to actively move while on top in kesa. in fact why did she get her back taken? because the fence got in the way of moving properly.

    one could say that rolling for a juji when you're on top is dangerous, because after all you're giving up top position for a sub that may or may not work. but if you're good at juji the risk is worth it because your odds are better. I guess it's the same concept really. if you're not good at something it's always dangerous to attempt against a skilled opponent.

    I think we don't see a lot of kesa because we don't see a lot of people knowledgeable about kesa. We don't see people like Ronda who really know how to apply kesa.

    I think the fact that carmouche kept trying to hook the head with her legs demonstrates 1. the vast majority of people have no clue about a good kesa, and 2. as a result, they have no clue about even attempting to get out of kesa. Instead, they learn to try to hook the head - something that works with inexperienced kesa practitioners or in that short period of time when the practitioner is locking it in.

    Ronda showed excellent control with her kesa, as well as the importance of her own head position. It was truly a clinic on the potency of a good kesa in MMA.
    Dutch Budo
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    Post by Dutch Budo Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:03 am

    Stacey wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:
    Davaro wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know Smile

    I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"


    Not easy to do but probably easier without the gi, also there has to be a reason that we don't often see Kesa Gatame used in MMA
    one thing I've found in my admittedly brief time in BJJ, is that despite the commentary from green belt friends who also do BJJ elsewhere about it being dangerous, nobody can budge me when I get into kesa. I could stay there the whole round were it not for the emphasis on going for submissions. and yet I can take many people's backs fairly easily when they put me in kesa. I guess what it comes down to is being good at kesa.

    in fact I can say with reasonable confidence that a majority of the people who say don't go for kesa, are people who don't know how to actively move while on top in kesa. in fact why did she get her back taken? because the fence got in the way of moving properly.

    one could say that rolling for a juji when you're on top is dangerous, because after all you're giving up top position for a sub that may or may not work. but if you're good at juji the risk is worth it because your odds are better. I guess it's the same concept really. if you're not good at something it's always dangerous to attempt against a skilled opponent.

    I think we don't see a lot of kesa because we don't see a lot of people knowledgeable about kesa. We don't see people like Ronda who really know how to apply kesa.

    I think the fact that carmouche kept trying to hook the head with her legs demonstrates 1. the vast majority of people have no clue about a good kesa, and 2. as a result, they have no clue about even attempting to get out of kesa. Instead, they learn to try to hook the head - something that works with inexperienced kesa practitioners or in that short period of time when the practitioner is locking it in.

    Ronda showed excellent control with her kesa, as well as the importance of her own head position. It was truly a clinic on the potency of a good kesa in MMA.

    Except when her back got taken.

    Trust me, she better unlearn this technique.
    genetic judoka
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    Post by genetic judoka Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:11 am

    Dutch Budo wrote:

    Except when her back got taken.

    Trust me, she better unlearn this technique.
    in summary, what we learned here is kesa is a bad position to go into when a wall or fence/cage limits your motion.
    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:50 am

    The kazure kesa is the usual mma position to avoid this
    JudoTerrier
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    Post by JudoTerrier Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:38 am

    [quote="Dutch Budo"][quote="Stacey"][quote="genetic judoka"]
    JudoStu wrote:
    Davaro wrote:
    Ronda showed excellent control with her kesa, as well as the importance of her own head position. It was truly a clinic on the potency of a good kesa in MMA.

    Except when her back got taken.

    Trust me, she better unlearn this technique.

    Ronda's back got taken on the first kesa because she was so close to the cage that Carmouche was able to use it to climb up and over. No such luck on the second time around. I was watching it and thinking "sorry hon, judoka live here and you're not gonna get anywhere flailing your legs like that...."

    However, this was much more of an actual fight that her previous ones. I'm glad Carmouche tapped out instead of getting her arm broken.

    Erika
    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:11 am

    JudoTerrier wrote:

    Ronda's back got taken on the first kesa because she was so close to the cage that Carmouche was able to use it to climb up and over. No such luck on the second time around. I was watching it and thinking "sorry hon, judoka live here and you're not gonna get anywhere flailing your legs like that...."

    However, this was much more of an actual fight that her previous ones. I'm glad Carmouche tapped out instead of getting her arm broken.

    Erika

    me too. finally, somebody figured out it's better to tap than suffer through a snap.
    judoratt
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    Post by judoratt Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:54 am

    it did hyperextend a bit I wonder how she's feeling today.She probably drilled tapping out almost as much as she drilled arm bar defense. Very Happy
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    Post by afulldeck Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:58 am

    I thought the women stole the show. There was no running away like Lyoto, no laying praying like Brendan and they were trying to finish the fight unlike Court. Very impressive fight overall.
    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:02 am

    judoratt wrote:it did hyperextend a bit I wonder how she's feeling today.She probably drilled tapping out almost as much as she drilled arm bar defense. Very Happy

    Did you see her position herself and get ready to tap the moment she knew the arm was lost? Bet you're right - somebody said, "you know what? just in case, let's work on tapping. You really don't want to deal with the kind of damage some of these other women have suffered"

    Decades of juji v. marine corps training; somebody in her camp was thinking.

    Do look forward to carmouche's development as a fighter, but i also think it's going to be a long time before she's able to really challenge Rowdy, especially once Rowdy gets her gear situation settled.

    You know, the good thing about MMA as opposed to judo is that Ronda's probably not dealing with a ton of gi burn to her chin today.
    judoratt
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    Post by judoratt Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:41 am

    Stacey wrote:
    judoratt wrote:it did hyperextend a bit I wonder how she's feeling today.She probably drilled tapping out almost as much as she drilled arm bar defense. Very Happy

    Did you see her position herself and get ready to tap the moment she knew the arm was lost? Bet you're right - somebody said, "you know what? just in case, let's work on tapping. You really don't want to deal with the kind of damage some of these other women have suffered"

    Decades of juji v. marine corps training; somebody in her camp was thinking.

    Do look forward to carmouche's development as a fighter, but i also think it's going to be a long time before she's able to really challenge Rowdy, especially once Rowdy gets her gear situation settled.

    You know, the good thing about MMA as opposed to judo is that Ronda's probably not dealing with a ton of gi burn to her chin today.
    Very well said. Some of her previous opponents were ill prepared for Juji and suffered greatly because poor preparation and coaching.

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