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E-Judo

Judo network and forum


+32
Ranma
Ryvai
Judoman
nomoremondays
machine
sodo
hedgehogey
NBK
seatea
JFTW
FightingSpirit
afulldeck
Cichorei Kano
judoratt
genetic judoka
Chilli
Udon
Ben Reinhardt
jkw
JudoStu
Gus
Judo Dad
degster
finarashi
Hane-goshi
Ricebale
Steve Leadbeater
Q mystic
BillC
radzfman
Taiobroshi
Jonesy
36 posters

    The IJF are destroying judo

    judoratt
    judoratt


    Posts : 309
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    Age : 67
    Location : Seattle

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    Post by judoratt Tue May 21, 2013 2:27 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:now that I've completely given up on the idea of my future as a competitive judoka on any kind of meaningful level (that's not to say I won't compete anymore but I know the olympics are nowhere in my future) I've stopped worrying about how the IJF's rules are changing. I'll play from a cross grip for extended periods of time (offensively, not defensively), I'll do whatever form of safe grip break suits my fancy, and I'll go for leg grabs when I want some variety. I do judo. my head sensei and I had a discussion after the most recent rounds of rule changes, and we agree that in that dojo we teach judo. not modern judo, not classical judo, just judo. and (almost) all of it.

    I was prety sure your competitive career was over when I saw the first picture of your girlfriend. Very Happy Very Happy
    Ben Reinhardt
    Ben Reinhardt


    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Wed May 22, 2013 1:55 am

    judoratt wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:now that I've completely given up on the idea of my future as a competitive judoka on any kind of meaningful level (that's not to say I won't compete anymore but I know the olympics are nowhere in my future) I've stopped worrying about how the IJF's rules are changing. I'll play from a cross grip for extended periods of time (offensively, not defensively), I'll do whatever form of safe grip break suits my fancy, and I'll go for leg grabs when I want some variety. I do judo. my head sensei and I had a discussion after the most recent rounds of rule changes, and we agree that in that dojo we teach judo. not modern judo, not classical judo, just judo. and (almost) all of it.

    I was prety sure your competitive career was over when I saw the first picture of your girlfriend. Very Happy Very Happy

    Tru dat!
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 864
    Location : the Holy See

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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed May 22, 2013 1:58 am

    judoratt wrote:
    I was prety sure your competitive career was over when I saw the first picture of your girlfriend. Very Happy Very Happy

    genetic judoka
    genetic judoka


    Posts : 541
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    Age : 37
    Location : Florida

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    Post by genetic judoka Wed May 22, 2013 4:00 am

    I'm not gonna lie, my training has dropped off substantially ever since I got married. I never thought that would happen. sadly it seems easier to justify missing class over something that's not that big of a deal when you've got a smoking hot wife waiting in your bedroom...
    Ben Reinhardt
    Ben Reinhardt


    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Wed May 22, 2013 5:56 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I'm not gonna lie, my training has dropped off substantially ever since I got married. I never thought that would happen. sadly it seems easier to justify missing class over something that's not that big of a deal when you've got a smoking hot wife waiting in your bedroom...

    Ne waza is ne waza...
    afulldeck
    afulldeck


    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

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    Post by afulldeck Thu May 23, 2013 2:11 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    jkw wrote:I realized that since the 'banning' of leg-grabbing techniques, I've been using them much more often during randori. Perhaps it's just more in the forefront of my mind right now.

    LOL,I started doing leg picks again. My students are like "Hansokumake" and I reply "I'm not competing anymore, live with it"!


    IJF rules in randori? Where or where are the world championships in randori....don't answer that .... I'm just being sarcastic this morning... My coffee was ruined....
    Ben Reinhardt
    Ben Reinhardt


    Posts : 794
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    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu May 23, 2013 2:39 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    jkw wrote:I realized that since the 'banning' of leg-grabbing techniques, I've been using them much more often during randori. Perhaps it's just more in the forefront of my mind right now.

    LOL,I started doing leg picks again. My students are like "Hansokumake" and I reply "I'm not competing anymore, live with it"!


    IJF rules in randori? Where or where are the world championships in randori....don't answer that .... I'm just being sarcastic this morning... My coffee was ruined....
    Once upon a time IJF rules were pretty much in line with "Kodokan" rules, so it wasn't really an issue.

    Plus, when training people for competition, it's good to work with the current ruleset in randori.

    But you knew that already...sorry about the coffee!
    afulldeck
    afulldeck


    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

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    Post by afulldeck Thu May 23, 2013 4:31 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    But you knew that already...sorry about the coffee!

    That brought a big happy grin to my face. ....oh yes the coffee has been replaced but I can't say the same for the computer keyboard.....
    Ben Reinhardt
    Ben Reinhardt


    Posts : 794
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu May 23, 2013 5:01 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    But you knew that already...sorry about the coffee!

    That brought a big happy grin to my face. ....oh yes the coffee has been replaced but I can't say the same for the computer keyboard.....

    I had a diet coke explode in the dispatch office one time. That was a fun cleanup...

    Then the diet Pepsi in the printer incident..
    FightingSpirit
    FightingSpirit


    Posts : 62
    Join date : 2013-02-21
    Location : Va

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    Post by FightingSpirit Fri May 24, 2013 12:45 pm

    Could be worse...
    2020 Olympic Wrestling – Continual Screw-Ups

    Written by Wade Schalles on May 13, 2013. Posted in Save Olympic Wrestling
    Note: Wade Schalles was the first Pennsylvanian to be inducted into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame; was selected during his years in the sport as the country's "Athlete of the Year;" was named "National Coach of the Year"; and also voted "World's Greatest Wrestler" by coaches from around the globe for pinning all of his opponents at the World Championships. Schalles is the National Record Holder for defeating the most NCAA Champions and pinning the most NCAA Champions, and the World Record Holder for defeating the most World Champions and pinning the most World Champions.
    avatar
    JFTW


    Posts : 27
    Join date : 2013-03-14

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    Post by JFTW Fri May 31, 2013 12:12 pm

    seatea
    seatea


    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2013-01-19
    Location : England.

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    Post by seatea Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:12 am

    JFTW wrote:

    I think many of the new rules are ridiculous but I agree with much of this video, especially regarding the IJF competition circuit and it's quality broadcasting--there is always a high-level tourney on soon which you can watch live (and free) on YouTube or see a half hour long highlight programme with commentary from Neil Adams.
    Q mystic
    Q mystic


    Posts : 319
    Join date : 2013-02-10

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    Post by Q mystic Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:49 am

    +1 IJF. These guys are cool.

    I have buddies who 'should' like the new rules yet complain. They're younger tho, in their mid 30s.lol
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:03 am

    seatea wrote:
    I think many of the new rules are ridiculous but I agree with much of this video, especially regarding the IJF competition circuit and it's quality broadcasting--there is always a high-level tourney on soon which you can watch live (and free) on YouTube or see a half hour long highlight programme with commentary from Neil Adams.

    One question to ask though is who still even wants to watch ? A major difference between 20 years ago and now is indeed the availability of this kind of thing, but another difference is that many among those who 20 years ago was eager to watch just is no longer interested in watching. It's actually worse than that. I used to attend every world championship eager not to miss an important contest. 2009 was the first World Championship I ever attended where I was so bored, I'd sometimes rather stay at my hotel room working on my computer, or talk to people, or walk around. There wasn't even any judo atmosphere anymore. It was a sterile, disco-like light show, just plain weird. Distance between mats and audience was way too large, etc. It's not the first time some of these problems happen. The oddity is that both the exciting 1981 World Championships and the disastrous 2009 World Championships played in the same country (Maastricht vs. Rotterdam). The 1981 European Championships in Vienna too had a big problem as the tatami were separated from the audience by an indoor cycling track, and that distance too destroyed the atmosphere, but at least there was still some really exciting judo going on from the likes of Parisi, Adams, and many others.

    There is also a far less strong identification of people with a particular judoka, with only a few exceptions like when someone is on track to win the first gold ever for a country like in the case of Kayla/US, which probably was a special case also due to its particular history. In the 1980s though EVERY judoka wanted to see Adams, Kashiwazaki, Gamba, Yamashita, etc. Now, it's really only youngsters who either weren't born yet or too young in those days and for whom today's judo is largely the only type of judo they have ever known. I don't have statistics, I can't offer hard proof of that, but it's largely what I understand from many contacts, and from having perceived some of that while present.

    I still have hundreds of hours of tape of contests (from preliminaries all the way to the final, full contests, not just highlights) from the 1970s and 1980s mainly European Championships and World Championships. Maybe if ever I have a lot of spare time I should digitize that and see if I can make that available via YouTube or something, because there is really very little of that currently on YouTube, except for some brief sequences often in poor quality.
    Q mystic
    Q mystic


    Posts : 319
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    Post by Q mystic Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:49 am

    Awesome post CK and Ronda is dominating any judo scene that Kayla could locally cover at this time.
    afulldeck
    afulldeck


    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

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    Post by afulldeck Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:12 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    I still have hundreds of hours of tape of contests (from preliminaries all the way to the final, full contests, not just highlights) from the 1970s and 1980s mainly European Championships and World Championships. Maybe if ever I have a lot of spare time I should digitize that and see if I can make that available via YouTube or something, because there is really very little of that currently on YouTube, except for some brief sequences often in poor quality.

    CK if you could do this you would be doing us a huge favour. Is there anyway we can help? Donations perhaps?
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
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    Location : the Holy See

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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:05 pm

    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    I still have hundreds of hours of tape of contests (from preliminaries all the way to the final, full contests, not just highlights) from the 1970s and 1980s mainly European Championships and World Championships. Maybe if ever I have a lot of spare time I should digitize that and see if I can make that available via YouTube or something, because there is really very little of that currently on YouTube, except for some brief sequences often in poor quality.

    CK if you could do this you would be doing us a huge favour. Is there anyway we can help? Donations perhaps?

    This would be really long-term stuff, something I plan on doing something about 'eventually'. I have many, many far more urgent projects, two book projects having priority over that. I am sorry, I did not want to get your hopes up too much too soon. Let's talk again in 5 years or so if all goes well.
    seatea
    seatea


    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2013-01-19
    Location : England.

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    Post by seatea Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:21 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    seatea wrote:
    I think many of the new rules are ridiculous but I agree with much of this video, especially regarding the IJF competition circuit and it's quality broadcasting--there is always a high-level tourney on soon which you can watch live (and free) on YouTube or see a half hour long highlight programme with commentary from Neil Adams.

    One question to ask though is who still even wants to watch ? A major difference between 20 years ago and now is indeed the availability of this kind of thing, but another difference is that many among those who 20 years ago was eager to watch just is no longer interested in watching. It's actually worse than that. I used to attend every world championship eager not to miss an important contest. 2009 was the first World Championship I ever attended where I was so bored, I'd sometimes rather stay at my hotel room working on my computer, or talk to people, or walk around. There wasn't even any judo atmosphere anymore. It was a sterile, disco-like light show, just plain weird. Distance between mats and audience was way too large, etc. It's not the first time some of these problems happen. The oddity is that both the exciting 1981 World Championships and the disastrous 2009 World Championships played in the same country (Maastricht vs. Rotterdam). The 1981 European Championships in Vienna too had a big problem as the tatami were separated from the audience by an indoor cycling track, and that distance too destroyed the atmosphere, but at least there was still some really exciting judo going on from the likes of Parisi, Adams, and many others.

    There is also a far less strong identification of people with a particular judoka, with only a few exceptions like when someone is on track to win the first gold ever for a country like in the case of Kayla/US, which probably was a special case also due to its particular history. In the 1980s though EVERY judoka wanted to see Adams, Kashiwazaki, Gamba, Yamashita, etc. Now, it's really only youngsters who either weren't born yet or too young in those days and for whom today's judo is largely the only type of judo they have ever known. I don't have statistics, I can't offer hard proof of that, but it's largely what I understand from many contacts, and from having perceived some of that while present.

    Of course, I admit that it might be a case of me just not knowing any better, with me only taking up judo five years ago. But on the other hand I'm not claiming that we are in some golden age either. It's just that for someone like me who cannot travel to tournaments the IJF broadcasts are very important, they are the only way I have to enjoy high-level competitive judo.

    I still have hundreds of hours of tape of contests (from preliminaries all the way to the final, full contests, not just highlights) from the 1970s and 1980s mainly European Championships and World Championships. Maybe if ever I have a lot of spare time I should digitize that and see if I can make that available via YouTube or something, because there is really very little of that currently on YouTube, except for some brief sequences often in poor quality.

    If you could do that you'd have a fan for life.
    seatea
    seatea


    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2013-01-19
    Location : England.

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    Post by seatea Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:25 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    I still have hundreds of hours of tape of contests (from preliminaries all the way to the final, full contests, not just highlights) from the 1970s and 1980s mainly European Championships and World Championships. Maybe if ever I have a lot of spare time I should digitize that and see if I can make that available via YouTube or something, because there is really very little of that currently on YouTube, except for some brief sequences often in poor quality.

    CK if you could do this you would be doing us a huge favour. Is there anyway we can help? Donations perhaps?

    This would be really long-term stuff, something I plan on doing something about 'eventually'. I have many, many far more urgent projects, two book projects having priority over that. I am sorry, I did not want to get your hopes up too much too soon. Let's talk again in 5 years or so if all goes well.

    Damn. Is there no one else you can, for lack of a better of a term, 'palm' the project on to?
    Jonesy
    Jonesy


    Posts : 1070
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    Post by Jonesy Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:42 pm

    The scope of Kodokan Judo is not defined by the IJF, their commercial motives and the rule sets imposed for their organised Judo championships. Kodokan Judo is defined by its waza, its kata, its history and its educational goals. At this time to ensure the preservation of the totality of judo, the need for prominent judoka and dojo leaders to reject Marius Vizer's efforts to dilute judo for commercial benefit has never been greater. Remember techniques such as kata guruma, kani basami, ashi dori are not banned from judo, they are just against IJF rules - they can, and should still be taught.
    afulldeck
    afulldeck


    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

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    Post by afulldeck Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:12 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    I still have hundreds of hours of tape of contests (from preliminaries all the way to the final, full contests, not just highlights) from the 1970s and 1980s mainly European Championships and World Championships. Maybe if ever I have a lot of spare time I should digitize that and see if I can make that available via YouTube or something, because there is really very little of that currently on YouTube, except for some brief sequences often in poor quality.

    CK if you could do this you would be doing us a huge favour. Is there anyway we can help? Donations perhaps?

    This would be really long-term stuff, something I plan on doing something about 'eventually'. I have many, many far more urgent projects, two book projects having priority over that. I am sorry, I did not want to get your hopes up too much too soon.

    Too late.

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Let's talk again in 5 years or so if all goes well

    Well if you change your mind in the short term, I would be willing to help.
    Udon
    Udon


    Posts : 162
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Location : Minnesota

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    Post by Udon Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:51 am

    Jonesy, I am in complete agreement with your post re the scope of Kodokan judo not being determined by the IJF. I wish someone from the Kodokan would step up and say the same thing.
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:11 am

    Udon wrote:Jonesy, I am in complete agreement with your post re the scope of Kodokan judo not being determined by the IJF. I wish someone from the Kodokan would step up and say the same thing.

    Not wanting to kick in any open doors, but the Kôdôkan these days is hardly in pursuit Kôdôkan jûdô. They already let that slip as soon as they started brokering deals with the SCAP post World War-II. Many distinguished Japanese sensei who are not employees of the Kôdôkan and even some of the nonagenarian sensei at the Kôdôkan who can't perform anymore themselves feel pretty desperate about their successors. These "young people" ('young' includes some who are past 60 !) obviously still know how to perform this and that throw very decently, but for the rest they no no longer have the intellectual knowledge and insights that someone like Daigo does. When the current generation of 10th dan-holders passes away, the Kôdôkan would better change its name into 'Kareki' 枯木. 'Kareki' means 'Deadwood'.

    Udon
    Udon


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    Post by Udon Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:07 pm

    Cichorei Kano, I hope you are wrong. If you are correct I can envision the end of Kano Shihan's judo in forty or fifty years.
    NBK
    NBK


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    Post by NBK Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:57 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Udon wrote:Jonesy, I am in complete agreement with your post re the scope of Kodokan judo not being determined by the IJF. I wish someone from the Kodokan would step up and say the same thing.

    Not wanting to kick in any open doors, but the Kôdôkan these days is hardly in pursuit Kôdôkan jûdô. They already let that slip as soon as they started brokering deals with the SCAP post World War-II. Many distinguished Japanese sensei who are not employees of the Kôdôkan and even some of the nonagenarian sensei at the Kôdôkan who can't perform anymore themselves feel pretty desperate about their successors. These "young people" ('young' includes some who are past 60 !)  obviously still know how to perform this and that throw very decently, but for the rest they no no longer have the intellectual knowledge and insights that someone like Daigo does. When the current generation of 10th dan-holders passes away, the Kôdôkan would better change its name into 'Kareki' 枯木. 'Kareki' means 'Deadwood'.

    You're unlikely to kick any doors in with that - perhaps you meant 'close any doors'.

    The Kodokan never negotiated with SCAP. Unlike the nuttiness of the Iraq invasion, when the entire government was dismantled, SCAP left the Japanese government largely intact. The Japanese ran the country with close scrutiny from SCAP, so the Kodokan appealed to the Ministry of Education. I do have a copy of the letter sent SCAP asking to allow judo training in school; while kendo organized a huge writing campaign with lots of senior support, judo seemingly only had a small one.

    It will survive but not as Kano shihan envisioned it. It has never become what he really wanted, but gets farther away by the year.

    There is a relatively steady state of a type of jacketed stand up wrestling that was enacted post WWII that chugs along. The relatively small changes since then pale in comparison to the changes made from the early 1900's through 1945.

    As for the next generation, didn't Daigo sensei himself admit he had not much interest in kata and history when younger? One hopes that some will step up.

    NBK

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