The Judo Chronicles: Clinch-Fighting Against The Cage

Like many Judoka, I suffer paroxysms when I behold static cage clinching, because Judo affords numerous ready opportunities for effective takedowns from this position. If these were more widely known in MMA, fans would nevermore have to endure the mind-numbing, yet disturbingly erotic spectacle of muscular athletes embracing fiercely against a metal fence for extended periods of time. So here are a few basic Judo throws that can and should be used to advance a fence-clinching situation.

Ricebale wrote:The thrust of my point is the "unrealized potential" for Judo technique and strategy off the cage.

I use and teach it but most people are obsessed with leg attacks on the cage which in my view whilst high percentage are also high energy burners which equates to a lower efficiency rating.

Good clip btw

Glorfindel wrote:Guys, dont talk about leg attack against the cage!

There is one thing, that i hate to see and dont understand, even at top level mma fight.

WHy are you PUSHING the guys against the cage when you have a single or double? WHYYYYYYYYYY?

You should do the exact opposite! Pull him off the cage to have full range to finish the single/double!

Get the leg (good grip) and pull him off to finish the take down.

WHen you dive for the leg, most people will 'sit' on the cage and try to do some pummeling...Then kouchi/ouchi are comming

Q mystic wrote:Rice, you gotta do one for judo off the fence, too. I don't think the fence is really all that favorable and not a lot of news there with what we have seen from other judoka. I think judoka can try to make the best of it, and they do, but let's take a look at old man and somewhat mma-noob, Akiyama. he might've fought some scrubs but he also fought heavy and never really needed to fight anyway.

I'm very interested in his ability to throw often, if not always, near the center of the ring in the UFC. Always seeming, comfortably. I think judoka could learn a lot here. 





I looove this guy. Akiyama!!lol   As well as Hiromitsu Miura, others as well. They threw near the contact from the boxing pov. That's the stuff I love to see.

Ricebale wrote:The thrust of my point is the "unrealized potential" for Judo technique and strategy off the cage.

I use and teach it but most people are obsessed with leg attacks on the cage which in my view whilst high percentage are also high energy burners which equates to a lower efficiency rating.

Good clip btw

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Q mystic wrote:Rice, you gotta do one for judo off the fence, too. I don't think the fence is really all that favorable and not a lot of news there with what we have seen from other judoka. I think judoka can try to make the best of it, and they do, but let's take a look at old man and somewhat mma-noob, Akiyama. he might've fought some scrubs but he also fought heavy and never really needed to fight anyway.

I'm very interested in his ability to throw often, if not always, near the center of the ring in the UFC. Always seeming, comfortably. I think judoka could learn a lot here. 





I looove this guy. Akiyama!!lol   As well as Hiromitsu Miura, others as well. They threw near the contact from the boxing pov. That's the stuff I love to see.

We should learn that if we are highest level judoka (like Akiyama) then we can throw other people around pretty easily, regardless.

Akiyama also seems to have actually tried to combine his incredible judo ability with his MMA skills, unlike a lot of judoka who seemed intent on getting very good at striking separate from their throwing ability, not really integrating the two. Akiyama seems to have attempted to do so and done so pretty well.

Again, he is an incredible athlete and highest level judoka who entered MMA before he was washed up physically.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Ricebale wrote:The thrust of my point is the "unrealized potential" for Judo technique and strategy off the cage.

I use and teach it but most people are obsessed with leg attacks on the cage which in my view whilst high percentage are also high energy burners which equates to a lower efficiency rating.

Good clip btw

One of my (former) judo students is actively training MMA at a good gym, and is 2-0 in ammy fights so far, with another coming up late July/Early August.

He visited town last night and did some Judo with us. We talked about using Judo in MMA. He said it was not as easy as you might think. I mentioned this thread and your comments about using the cage. So far his bouts have been in rings, not cages. He said he did try to bounce them out of the corner and throw, and he did try foot sweeps (specifically ashi barai). The mat surface was sticky, so the ashi barai didn't work, and his attempts at Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi?Hiza guruma (which he is pretty good at) failed, but thought that was more a function of the specific situations than anything else. He did throw a guy with a massive Harai goshi, though, but threw him on his face, mounted and pounded the guy, who got saved from a TKO by the bell.

In any case, his MMA coaches actually try to integrate his Judo into his "game", but as you know there is so much more to MMA it's a long slow process.

Q mystic wrote:sry Ben. Ok. To be more clear, If I was a somewhat younger, good, tuff judo competitor and I sincerely wanted to fight mma. I'd do boxing, ammy oly style for sometime and I sure would not let them furk it up by telling me what to do and when, outside of this. Same goes for mma. Now, I do know that mma is good but they haven't my concept of fighting. It's actually pretty rare. I want basics and I'll deal. I'll notice if issues happen. I want a coach that caters to me, assuming I always give him 100% effort.

MMA coaching has nothing grappling for Ronda for instance. Teach her to box and let her keep her own fight. Aki was exhausted, Pawel was exhausted. To think that scrappers can't match Olympians is a huge mistake. Nastula and Akiyamas physical is, well, there are 10,000 others like each physically. Really demos the winner in Pawel and Akiyama In judo.

we've seen other highest level judoka athletes ranging across the board from Kim Min Soo to Bu Kung Jung. Their athleticism is no biggie.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Q mystic wrote:sry Ben. Ok. To be more clear, If I was a somewhat younger, good, tuff judo competitor and I sincerely wanted to fight mma. I'd do boxing, ammy oly style for sometime and I sure would not let them furk it up by telling me what to do and when, outside of this. Same goes for mma. Now, I do know that mma is good but they haven't my concept of fighting. It's actually pretty rare. I want basics and I'll deal. I'll notice if issues happen. I want a coach that caters to me, assuming I always give him 100% effort.

MMA coaching has nothing grappling for Ronda for instance. Teach her to box and let her keep her own fight. Aki was exhausted, Pawel was exhausted. To think that scrappers can't match Olympians is a huge mistake. Nastula and Akiyamas physical is, well, there are 10,000 others like each physically. Really demos the winner in Pawel and Akiyama In judo.

we've seen other highest level judoka athletes ranging across the board from Kim Min Soo to Bu Kung Jung. Their athleticism is no biggie.

I think the key would be to find a MMA coach/program that can thoughtfully integrate your judo skills into MMA, just a they would for a skilled BJJer, wrestler, etc. You have to lose the habits that are contrary to MMA rules and situation, and gain other skills, then put them all together.

I think your statement about Ronda may be a bit broad and uninformed...you have inside info? I don't , but I do believe she has cross trained in BJJ, wrestling, etc..and would have to work on no-gi stuff as well from whatever "style". No gi grappling is a bit different...

Akiyama was exhausted? Nastula, yeah, I can see that, plus, I don't recall him doing nearly as much judo throwing as Akiyama does/did...they had two different styles of Judo in any case.

Concepts are great, but when the punches and kicks start to fly from a skilled opponent, you had better be more than conceptual.

Q mystic wrote:sry Ben. Ok. To be more clear, If I was a somewhat younger, good, tuff judo competitor and I sincerely wanted to fight mma. I'd do boxing, ammy oly style for sometime and I sure would not let them furk it up by telling me what to do and when, outside of this. Same goes for mma. Now, I do know that mma is good but they haven't my concept of fighting. It's actually pretty rare. I want basics and I'll deal. I'll notice if issues happen. I want a coach that caters to me, assuming I always give him 100% effort.

MMA coaching has nothing grappling for Ronda for instance. Teach her to box and let her keep her own fight. Aki was exhausted, Pawel was exhausted. To think that scrappers can't match Olympians is a huge mistake. Nastula and Akiyamas physical is, well, there are 10,000 others like each physically. Really demos the winner in Pawel and Akiyama In judo.

we've seen other highest level judoka athletes ranging across the board from Kim Min Soo to Bu Kung Jung. Their athleticism is no biggie.

Q mystic wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Q mystic wrote:sry Ben. Ok. To be more clear, If I was a somewhat younger, good, tuff judo competitor and I sincerely wanted to fight mma. I'd do boxing, ammy oly style for sometime and I sure would not let them furk it up by telling me what to do and when, outside of this. Same goes for mma. Now, I do know that mma is good but they haven't my concept of fighting. It's actually pretty rare. I want basics and I'll deal. I'll notice if issues happen. I want a coach that caters to me, assuming I always give him 100% effort.

MMA coaching has nothing grappling for Ronda for instance. Teach her to box and let her keep her own fight. Aki was exhausted, Pawel was exhausted. To think that scrappers can't match Olympians is a huge mistake. Nastula and Akiyamas physical is, well, there are 10,000 others like each physically. Really demos the winner in Pawel and Akiyama In judo.

we've seen other highest level judoka athletes ranging across the board from Kim Min Soo to Bu Kung Jung. Their athleticism is no biggie.

I think the key would be to find a MMA coach/program that can thoughtfully integrate your judo skills into MMA, just a they would for a skilled BJJer, wrestler, etc. You have to lose the habits that are contrary to MMA rules and situation, and gain other skills, then put them all together.

I think your statement about Ronda may be a bit broad and uninformed...you have inside info? I don't , but I do believe she has cross trained in BJJ, wrestling, etc..and would have to work on no-gi stuff as well from whatever "style". No gi grappling is a bit different...

Akiyama was exhausted? Nastula, yeah, I can see that, plus, I don't recall him doing nearly as much judo throwing as Akiyama does/did...they had two different styles of Judo in any case.

Concepts are great, but when the punches and kicks start to fly from a skilled opponent, you had better be more than conceptual.

I believe conceptual is what you had better have been.lol . I don't know what call I made with Ronda in other than throwing the idea in that it seems she be in process of heavily cross-trained. I don't think that's very good, was my point,tho.

I understand you like to stimulate conversation here, but seriously, I don't think you have much "concept" of how to train or coach anything. What you seem to suggest flies in the face common sense. Ammy boxing? Who kicks, elbows, or knees in "ammy" boxing? Or wears headgear in pro MMA matches. Who trains/does lower body submissions in Judo at the level of BJJ, Sambo, or the various forms of sub-wrestling? Deal with Heal Hooks conceptually? That's like dealing with a strong lefty in Judo "conceptually", or the first time you do randori with a decent Japanese judoka and can't understand why all your grip breaks simply cannot cut his iron grip on your sleeve and he/she magically has it controlled no matter what you do other than run and hide.

I don't believe people just lose habits until there is something better.

No, they train out of them, just like in Judo, BJJ, or any other activity from swimming to horseback riding. It takes a looooong time and a lot of training and effort. Like judoka giving their backs in a BJJ match...

That's fine as well but like you said earlier, just who says something is a bad habit? You certainly can't call if there really isn't enuff dealt. For instance, not such an elite, and not really wanting to use it but off the hop, let's say kesa. Hands down and near perfect yet is not typically used. I'd score that over sitting tight in guard yet it is referenced nothing really. Just saying. I'd like to delve into this more here.

Kesa Gatame is a fine hold, and has applications in MMA. Is it the best thing to do? Ronda makes it work but who is she fighting? Tough, determined women for sure, and one nearly beat her because she used Kesa against the cage...in the middle of the ring, maybe OK. Against a so-so grappler, maybe OK, as in Ronda's latest case. But against a high level elite male MMA guy? Probably suicide..it's all about context...

My statement on Ronda. Inside info? I have nothing.lol Not sure what you got from it, tho. Ronda is she and should be only doing ammy boxing. With occasional scraps vs wrestlers and bjjers. There's nowhere now she should be in where a knee would be a factor. I think fellas are prepping her for that tho, way before her time. If ever necessary. Silva hasn't needed the most opportunistic deal in mma via td. Maybe Ronda will simply do her more pay time deal that we've seen thing. I believe that.