My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

afulldeck wrote:

Dave R. wrote:

NYCNewbie wrote:Great post (as usual) Stu.

One thing I don't get: how come we don't drill, drill, and re-drill this in Judo?  Why are we always "left to figure it out?"  I guess that works for some people but not for me, certainly!

I really feel as though our sport could do with aping BJJ.

Most drills I have done under one of my instructors were valuable to me because I drilled realistic movements and such.  Some other drills left me scratching my head saying, "I'd never actually do that..."

The same will hold true of bjj, some drills will leave you scratching your head. Not every will be practicality for you and your game: inverted guards? How about berimbolo? cartwheel passes? Anything from eddie bravo? Moves that require flexible shoulders or extreme back flexibility? I say again not everything taught, or drilled in bjj will be practical for you and most likely soon forgotten. Drilled or not.

I think what NYC was trying to say is that in Judo you are generally taught a technique, lets say Uchi mata.
You get shown the Ukemi and practice that about 5 times, then the entry with foot positions another 5 times and then practice the throw, maybe 10 times. If you get stuck and have to ask, sometimes your partner doesnt even get a go before they change the technique and move on to something else.
In BJJ you are shown a technique and then have at least 15 minutes to drill it which means you get to do plenty of repetitions

JudoStu wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

Dave R. wrote:

NYCNewbie wrote:Great post (as usual) Stu.

One thing I don't get: how come we don't drill, drill, and re-drill this in Judo?  Why are we always "left to figure it out?"  I guess that works for some people but not for me, certainly!

I really feel as though our sport could do with aping BJJ.

Most drills I have done under one of my instructors were valuable to me because I drilled realistic movements and such.  Some other drills left me scratching my head saying, "I'd never actually do that..."

The same will hold true of bjj, some drills will leave you scratching your head. Not every will be practicality for you and your game: inverted guards? How about berimbolo? cartwheel passes? Anything from eddie bravo? Moves that require flexible shoulders or extreme back flexibility? I say again not everything taught, or drilled in bjj will be practical for you and most likely soon forgotten. Drilled or not.

I think what NYC was trying to say is that in Judo you are generally taught a technique, lets say Uchi mata.
You get shown the Ukemi and practice that about 5 times, then the entry with foot positions another 5 times and then practice the throw, maybe 10 times. If you get stuck and have to ask, sometimes your partner doesnt even get a go before they change the technique and move on to something else.
In BJJ you are shown a technique and then have at least 15 minutes to drill it which means you get to do plenty of repetitions

Not where I learnt judo. I must have done a million uchi komis with corrections from my instructor. Also I took the time to drill my favourite techniques with a partner outside the class.

Muscle memory even though its an old concept, the idea of it is still very valuable. In my own classes I teach short movements, like getting the underhook and going on your side for the half guard. Then the next step, and the next. Each step I make people drill. Of course I show a little bit of the bit picture as well and have them drill that, but more important is engraining the movements into the system step by step and you can only do that by breaking a technique down in sequences of short and simple movements.

Had my second BJJ class the other night and I'm so far proving hard to submit. That said I havent rolled with anyone above purple belt but still, not making silly mistakes and keeping things tight is a start.

JudoStu wrote:Had my second BJJ class the other night and I'm so far proving hard to submit. That said I havent rolled with anyone above purple belt but still, not making silly mistakes and keeping things tight is a start.

With all due respect being hard to submit in BJJ doesn't really mean a whole lot especially if you're keeping things tight.  It’s not my intention to put you down so please don't take it that way.  It’s just years ago when I was doing BJJ and when I started Judo I used to think if I didn’t get tapped or thrown that I was making remarkable progress and I was really good.  The opposite was true in my experience.

Dave R. wrote:

JudoStu wrote:Had my second BJJ class the other night and I'm so far proving hard to submit. That said I havent rolled with anyone above purple belt but still, not making silly mistakes and keeping things tight is a start.

With all due respect being hard to submit in BJJ doesn't really mean a whole lot especially if you're keeping things tight.  It’s not my intention to put you down so please don't take it that way.  It’s just years ago when I was doing BJJ and when I started Judo I used to think if I didn’t get tapped or thrown that I was making remarkable progress and I was really good.  The opposite was true in my experience.

Dave is absolutely right. If your not being tapped, or put into some difficulties what have you learned? As you said yourself your "...keeping things tight...", meaning your playing safely within your skill level. By doing so, you've haven't learned anything you hadn't already known. A good way to learn about submissions is to put yourself into areas of constant danger and you look for ways out. Your learning what a good submission feels like, and what a good escape feels like. Tapping is the safety valve that allows you to figure out how far or deep into a submission attempt you can go. How many escapes from early armbar submissions have you discovered? How many from mid-armbar (your forearm 90 degrees to biceps)? How many armbar escapes when your arm is completely straight do you know, or have learn? Do yourself a favour, let opponent go for the submission and learn how to escape, if you can't escape, tap and try again.

In other words, tap more often & learn more.

Re: Drilling

I was fortunate to have a Judo sensei that taught a 50/50 mix of tachi waza/ne waza.  His method of teaching ne waza was to drill multiple isolated movements (osaekomi, escapes, gatame, shime,) against a completely cooperative partner.  We would then progress to speed drills or pin escapes with full resistance, followed by ne waza randori.  

My BJJ sensei teaches a single technique with emphasis on when and how the opponent is cueing that particular scenario.  It's then drilled in isolation against a semi-resistant opponent.  This is followed by a drill where the purpose is to pass guard if on top, sweep or submit if on the bottom with a time limit of 1 minute.  After that we roll/randori.

Both instructors have taught me a great deal.  I can't say one's method is better than the other as each has their strengths and I feel lucky to have experienced both.  However, the greatest contrast in teaching style is that my Judo sensei emphasized defensive grappling where it was the goal not to get tapped out, while my BJJ sensei encourages students to try new things and approach the tap out is a learning tool rather than a loss.

When I first started Judo, like most white belts I would do everything I could to avoid being thrown which normally meant I would not try any throws of my own.
After a few months I realised this was not the best way to learn Judo and decided to take the falls and attack more.

With BJJ, when I say I’m not tapping it’s not because I’m lying in a ball with my gi pulled up over my ears, waiting for the 3 minutes to pass. What I mean is that I recognise when I am in danger and react accordingly. If someone mounts me and then gets a deep grip on the inside of my gi collar I recognise the danger and defend the impending gi choke. Defending it can just mean stopping the choke or trying to escape to half or full guard or better still to sweep my opponent. I’ve ended up in side control on a number of occasions and despite wanting to keep this position for ippon (if we were doing Judo) I look for opportunities to attack and submit my opponent. This often results in losing my position but I’m trying to learn from that.

Also when I say I’m keeping things tight what I mean is I’m not spazzing out when put in a bad position. I understand that pushing someone off of you with a straight arm is asking for an armbar so I keep my arms close and use my legs and hips more. So again I’m not being ultra-defensive I just understand where the danger is.
Apologies if I didn’t make that clear in my original post but still appreciate all the advice

JudoStu wrote:When I first started Judo, like most white belts I would do everything I could to avoid being thrown which normally meant I would not try any throws of my own.
After a few months I realised this was not the best way to learn Judo and decided to take the falls and attack more.

With BJJ, when I say I’m not tapping it’s not because I’m lying in a ball with my gi pulled up over my ears, waiting for the 3 minutes to pass. What I mean is that I recognise when I am in danger and react accordingly. If someone mounts me and then gets a deep grip on the inside of my gi collar I recognise the danger and defend the impending gi choke. Defending it can just mean stopping the choke or trying to escape to half or full guard or better still to sweep my opponent. I’ve ended up in side control on a number of occasions and despite wanting to keep this position for ippon (if we were doing Judo) I look for opportunities to attack and submit my opponent. This often results in losing my position but I’m trying to learn from that.

Also when I say I’m keeping things tight what I mean is I’m not spazzing out when put in a bad position. I understand that pushing someone off of you with a straight arm is asking for an armbar so I keep my arms close and use my legs and hips more. So again I’m not being ultra-defensive I just understand where the danger is.
Apologies if I didn’t make that clear in my original post but still appreciate all the advice

Stu- it's really cool to read your stuff and I hope that you please continue to write, on here as well as your excellent blog.  It helps me (and others of my ilk) to read stuff that exactly addresses the issues we fledgling judoka face (in BJJ as well as Judo)- namely, the facets of engaging/playing/competing which are ingrained in us yet which do us a massive diservice.  I actually am that guy who tries "not to get tapped" in BJJ- but now, after reading this, I'm going to change my style and open up a lot.  It can be tough to shelve one's instinct(s) but that's what our sport(s) are all about: going against one's own predilections.

I am full of bad habits which is part of the reason why I love these forums so much-- if I don't see what others are saying, I stick to my own notions (as in: try not to get tapped and/or try to "win" in Randori/rolling), notions which retard my growth.  

In a nutshell, reading some stuff on here helps me get out of my own way.

NYCNewbie wrote:

JudoStu wrote:When I first started Judo, like most white belts I would do everything I could to avoid being thrown which normally meant I would not try any throws of my own.
After a few months I realised this was not the best way to learn Judo and decided to take the falls and attack more.

With BJJ, when I say I’m not tapping it’s not because I’m lying in a ball with my gi pulled up over my ears, waiting for the 3 minutes to pass. What I mean is that I recognise when I am in danger and react accordingly. If someone mounts me and then gets a deep grip on the inside of my gi collar I recognise the danger and defend the impending gi choke. Defending it can just mean stopping the choke or trying to escape to half or full guard or better still to sweep my opponent. I’ve ended up in side control on a number of occasions and despite wanting to keep this position for ippon (if we were doing Judo) I look for opportunities to attack and submit my opponent. This often results in losing my position but I’m trying to learn from that.

Also when I say I’m keeping things tight what I mean is I’m not spazzing out when put in a bad position. I understand that pushing someone off of you with a straight arm is asking for an armbar so I keep my arms close and use my legs and hips more. So again I’m not being ultra-defensive I just understand where the danger is.
Apologies if I didn’t make that clear in my original post but still appreciate all the advice

Stu- it's really cool to read your stuff and I hope that you please continue to write, on here as well as your excellent blog.  It helps me (and others of my ilk) to read stuff that exactly addresses the issues we fledgling judoka face (in BJJ as well as Judo)- namely, the facets of engaging/playing/competing which are ingrained in us yet which do us a massive diservice.  I actually am that guy who tries "not to get tapped" in BJJ- but now, after reading this, I'm going to change my style and open up a lot.  It can be tough to shelve one's instinct(s) but that's what our sport(s) are all about: going against one's own predilections.

I am full of bad habits which is part of the reason why I love these forums so much-- if I don't see what others are saying, I stick to my own notions (as in: try not to get tapped and/or try to "win" in Randori/rolling), notions which retard my growth.  

In a nutshell, reading some stuff on here helps me get out of my own way.

Its comments like this that keep me motivated to not only keep writing my blog but also to train more, so thanks.

I've done it now.
Yep, i've bought my first BJJ gi.
Hopefully now i'll no longer be that "Judo guy" in class.
Pretty soon people will see me as a BJJ white belt who has a slightly different game to most and if we ever do some stand up work i'll be that white belt who can throw

JudoStu wrote:I've done it now.
Yep, i've bought my first BJJ gi.
Hopefully now i'll no longer be that "Judo guy" in class.
Pretty soon people will see me as a BJJ white belt who has a slightly different game to most and if we ever do some stand up work i'll be that white belt who can throw

Unless you run into wrestler who 'leg picks' faster than you can throw  

I think your may regret buying your bjj gi, unless you got a spectacular deal on it. About 10-12 years ago you could get a great double weave bjj gi, now virtually all the bjj gis are pearl weave (or its equalvent ilk) that cost the same as a great double weave judo gi. And these pearl weave gis come with problems. (1) Shrinkage is spectacular of these gis. Mind you many bjj players prefer to get the smallest gi possible. I did say to a friend one day, "...I didn't know rash guards where made to looked like a gi...". (2) But the bigger issue in my mind is Cost. Its not unheard of to rip through these gis faster than Captain Kirk can tear his shirt--especially if your a heavier guy (>90kg). And at the same price as a good double weave, this can get expensive.

Now if your a lighter grappler this might not apply.

afulldeck wrote:

JudoStu wrote:I've done it now.
Yep, i've bought my first BJJ gi.
Hopefully now i'll no longer be that "Judo guy" in class.
Pretty soon people will see me as a BJJ white belt who has a slightly different game to most and if we ever do some stand up work i'll be that white belt who can throw

Unless you run into wrestler who 'leg picks' faster than you can throw  

I think your may regret buying your bjj gi, unless you got a spectacular deal on it. About 10-12 years ago you could get a great double weave bjj gi, now virtually all the bjj gis are pearl weave (or its equalvent ilk) that cost the same as a great double weave judo gi. And these pearl weave gis come with problems. (1) Shrinkage is spectacular of these gis. Mind you many bjj players prefer to get the smallest gi possible. I did say to a friend one day, "...I didn't know rash guards where made to looked like a gi...". (2) But the bigger issue in my mind is Cost. Its not unheard of to rip through these gis faster than Captain Kirk can tear his shirt--especially if your a heavier guy (>90kg). And at the same price as a good double weave, this can get expensive.

Now if your a lighter grappler this might not apply.

We don't get many Wrestlers in the UK so its unlikely to be a problem. That said both the instructor and one of the other Black belts hold Dan Grades in Judo.
With regards to the BJJ gi it cost me £35 new so not much of an expense. I recently sold a Judo gi that I was given to review on my blog which virtually paid for it all anyway

JudoStu wrote:I've done it now.
Yep, i've bought my first BJJ gi.
Hopefully now i'll no longer be that "Judo guy" in class.
Pretty soon people will see me as a BJJ white belt who has a slightly different game to most and if we ever do some stand up work i'll be that white belt who can throw

It's taken me 5 years plus a gym expansion to not be exclusively known as "that Judo guy". I'm not even that good at it.  

Just an update on my BJJ experience. I’m getting better at passing the guard, specifically controlling my opponents legs. We did an exercise the other week where you have to sit on the mat and everyone has to try and pass your guard. The person defending had to try and sweep or submit. I managed to stay on for 6 goes, which I was pretty impressed with. I got 4 sweeps and two subs.
One thing I have noticed is that despite training here for 5 weeks we haven’t once practised any takedowns or throws. If I was a pure BJJ guy and I wanted to enter competition I would feel lost when they started the fight standing.
However they may well practice this on another night as they currently have 3 classes a week (it used to be about 10 classes but an unexpected change of venue scuppered this)