My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

Neil G wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:
Be bold, don't stand them up even if it's "grinding progress" until the corners both tell you to do it.

I am pretty liberal with the time. The feedback I've been getting from the senior people is that I'm calling it at the right time.

Way to go, Neil. Keep up the good work!

Heisenberg wrote:

JudoStu wrote:

Heisenberg wrote:There are 3 commercial BJJ gyms thriving in my town compared to 1 non-profit judo dojo that barely makes the rent. I agree on using BJJ for cross training, but no offense, GJ, nothing about that video looks like something I would care at all to do for its own sake.

Would you care to elaborate on this?
Just curious to know what you didn’t like about it.

It's nothing to do with this performance in particular. I have always disliked the idea of pulling guard and the progression of most BJJ matches is often incredibly slow. I, personally, much prefer judo rules to spending 5 minutes wrestling from guard. I'm not in any way suggesting that there isn't considerable skill involved in winning at BJJ, just that I'd rather apply those skills elsewhere, and I haven't yet figured out how the sport became so popular.

The simple answer to that is MMA or the UFC.

Without wanting to hijack this thread I just wanted to let you know that I have decided to visit my local BJJ club for a class tonight. I’ve trained there before but not for two years and not for any length of time.
I do recall that I was never short of guys wanting to roll with me, is that because they just want to roll with someone a bit different, i.e. a Judoka?
I’ll report back tomorrow and let you know how I got on

JudoStu wrote:Without wanting to hijack this thread I just wanted to let you know that I have decided to visit my local BJJ club for a class tonight. I’ve trained there before but not for two years and not for any length of time.
I do recall that I was never short of guys wanting to roll with me, is that because they just want to roll with someone a bit different, i.e. a Judoka?
I’ll report back tomorrow and let you know how I got on

It's not a conscious thing for a lot of them, but they really want to confirm/deny things that they've heard about judo players. Groundwork with submissions has a small feedback loop and you become more confident every time things you "know" get reinforced. This doesn't last that long and eventually they treat you like everybody else. For the first few visits, you will be that judo guy that people use as a measuring stick for their own abilities. "I've heard judo guys give up their back" "I've heard they're really good at standup" "I've heard they have good bases and top game, but can't do anything on their back." Most mid-level BJJ and judo players can go their entire career without gaining meaningful exposure to someone from the other sport. When I stop by my university's BJJ club, people are eager to start standing with me. I take this as them writing off my groundwork abilities in the same way I write off their standing abilities, as in they think they have more to learn by trying to play "my game." It's an interesting, non-verbal dialogue that goes on when you first start cross-training.

Taiobroshi wrote:

JudoStu wrote:Without wanting to hijack this thread I just wanted to let you know that I have decided to visit my local BJJ club for a class tonight. I’ve trained there before but not for two years and not for any length of time.
I do recall that I was never short of guys wanting to roll with me, is that because they just want to roll with someone a bit different, i.e. a Judoka?
I’ll report back tomorrow and let you know how I got on

It's not a conscious thing for a lot of them, but they really want to confirm/deny things that they've heard about judo players. Groundwork with submissions has a small feedback loop and you become more confident every time things you "know" get reinforced. This doesn't last that long and eventually they treat you like everybody else. For the first few visits, you will be that judo guy that people use as a measuring stick for their own abilities. "I've heard judo guys give up their back" "I've heard they're really good at standup" "I've heard they have good bases and top game, but can't do anything on their back." Most mid-level BJJ and judo players can go their entire career without gaining meaningful exposure to someone from the other sport. When I stop by my university's BJJ club, people are eager to start standing with me. I take this as them writing off my groundwork abilities in the same way I write off their standing abilities, as in they think they have more to learn by trying to play "my game." It's an interesting, non-verbal dialogue that goes on when you first start cross-training.

Well my top game sucks especially my guard passing so I’ll blow that myth right out of the water.
I’m expecting a couple of hours of tapping and discomfort.

Taiobroshi wrote:

JudoStu wrote:Without wanting to hijack this thread I just wanted to let you know that I have decided to visit my local BJJ club for a class tonight. I’ve trained there before but not for two years and not for any length of time.
I do recall that I was never short of guys wanting to roll with me, is that because they just want to roll with someone a bit different, i.e. a Judoka?
I’ll report back tomorrow and let you know how I got on

It's not a conscious thing for a lot of them, but they really want to confirm/deny things that they've heard about judo players. Groundwork with submissions has a small feedback loop and you become more confident every time things you "know" get reinforced. This doesn't last that long and eventually they treat you like everybody else. For the first few visits, you will be that judo guy that people use as a measuring stick for their own abilities. "I've heard judo guys give up their back" "I've heard they're really good at standup" "I've heard they have good bases and top game, but can't do anything on their back." Most mid-level BJJ and judo players can go their entire career without gaining meaningful exposure to someone from the other sport. When I stop by my university's BJJ club, people are eager to start standing with me. I take this as them writing off my groundwork abilities in the same way I write off their standing abilities, as in they think they have more to learn by trying to play "my game." It's an interesting, non-verbal dialogue that goes on when you first start cross-training.

you pretty much nailed it. on my second class during a roll a fellow requested that I start from kesa because he heard judo people are good at it. he was not disappointed. I think I've dispelled the myth that none of us are any good off our backs, as I go to guard preferentially. I've also been pretty much directly asked about just about every judo stereotype in existence, but I think that's because they've figured out they can just ask me this stuff because I'm pretty difficult to offend.

also stu, feel free to use this thread to share your experiences. it doesn't have to be just about me.

JudoStu wrote:

Heisenberg wrote:

JudoStu wrote:

Heisenberg wrote:There are 3 commercial BJJ gyms thriving in my town compared to 1 non-profit judo dojo that barely makes the rent. I agree on using BJJ for cross training, but no offense, GJ, nothing about that video looks like something I would care at all to do for its own sake.

Would you care to elaborate on this?
Just curious to know what you didn’t like about it.

It's nothing to do with this performance in particular. I have always disliked the idea of pulling guard and the progression of most BJJ matches is often incredibly slow. I, personally, much prefer judo rules to spending 5 minutes wrestling from guard. I'm not in any way suggesting that there isn't considerable skill involved in winning at BJJ, just that I'd rather apply those skills elsewhere, and I haven't yet figured out how the sport became so popular.

The simple answer to that is MMA or the UFC.

Also, the older generation of Gracies are aggressive and skilful marketeers; the UFC was formed as a way to sell Gracie jiu-jitsu from the perspective of Rorian & Helio.

genetic judoka wrote:

Taiobroshi wrote:

JudoStu wrote:Without wanting to hijack this thread I just wanted to let you know that I have decided to visit my local BJJ club for a class tonight. I’ve trained there before but not for two years and not for any length of time.
I do recall that I was never short of guys wanting to roll with me, is that because they just want to roll with someone a bit different, i.e. a Judoka?
I’ll report back tomorrow and let you know how I got on

It's not a conscious thing for a lot of them, but they really want to confirm/deny things that they've heard about judo players. Groundwork with submissions has a small feedback loop and you become more confident every time things you "know" get reinforced. This doesn't last that long and eventually they treat you like everybody else. For the first few visits, you will be that judo guy that people use as a measuring stick for their own abilities. "I've heard judo guys give up their back" "I've heard they're really good at standup" "I've heard they have good bases and top game, but can't do anything on their back." Most mid-level BJJ and judo players can go their entire career without gaining meaningful exposure to someone from the other sport. When I stop by my university's BJJ club, people are eager to start standing with me. I take this as them writing off my groundwork abilities in the same way I write off their standing abilities, as in they think they have more to learn by trying to play "my game." It's an interesting, non-verbal dialogue that goes on when you first start cross-training.

you pretty much nailed it. on my second class during a roll a fellow requested that I start from kesa because he heard judo people are good at it. he was not disappointed. I think I've dispelled the myth that none of us are any good off our backs, as I go to guard preferentially. I've also been pretty much directly asked about just about every judo stereotype in existence, but I think that's because they've figured out they can just ask me this stuff because I'm pretty difficult to offend.

also stu, feel free to use this thread to share your experiences. it doesn't have to be just about me.

Thanks Genetic.
Well the BJJ class I attended was only 1 hour 30 long so we didn’t get to cover much technique wise. That said you can train 6 days a week at this place so 1 or 2 techniques a class soon add up over a week.
Anyway I was made to feel welcome and most of the guys did remember me from my last visit 2 years ago.
I only managed 3 rolls at the end of the class, two against white belts and one against a big strong blue belt. The first white belt I was able to pull guard, sweep, mount and choke. The second white belt was considerably better and was able to pass my guard into side control and then mount me. Realising that Tate-shiho-gatame counts for nothing in BJJ I didn’t panic, I just protected my neck and kept my arms close together and as he was trying to look for something to grab I reversed my position so that I was in his guard. This didn’t last long as his sweeps were pretty good and, as I said earlier, my top game sucks. He did eventually manage a cross collar choke on me whilst I was mounted.
My last roll, against the big blue belt was more about survival than anything else. He subbed me once but did pretty much dominate me although I was able to escape an armbar and triangle (bloody cheek trying to sub me with my favourite move) attempt.
A couple of the guys asked me questions about Judo and some assumed that since they last saw me I must be a Judo black belt by now as it only takes a few years to get one in Judo. I guess it depends how often you train and where but 3 years in I am a 3rd kyu and still some way off of a black belt.
One thing I noticed was that the last time I trained there I was simply a guy wearing a Judo suit, as I hadn’t been doing Judo very long.
Last night I was definitely a Judoka doing BJJ but I did try and play the BJJ way.

JudoStu wrote: Realising that Tate-shiho-gatame counts for nothing in BJJ

This isn't quite right, in a sport BJJ match attaining it gives you four points due to its excellence as a platform for the punching of faces. It's a bad position, you should treat it as such and exchange it for anything except back-control at the earlies opportunity (which it sounds like you did, good work).

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

JudoStu wrote: Realising that Tate-shiho-gatame counts for nothing in BJJ

This isn't quite right, in a sport BJJ match attaining it gives you four points due to its excellence as a platform for the punching of faces. It's a bad position, you should treat it as such and exchange it for anything except back-control at the earlies opportunity (which it sounds like you did, good work).

It means something different depending on what you're trying to achieve. If my goal is to work on defending chokes from mount, it does not make sense to try to escape the position until the opponent tries a submission. The only rule in randori is to learn and, especially if the person is not guided by competition, then the meaning of things that happen in randori is up to them. I'm trying to dig at you, PointyShiningBurning, but trying to justify actions in a free thing like randori based off real-life situations or IBJJF competition doesn't always work.

I think JudoStu was saying was that tate-shiho-gatame in shiai counts for a lot more than someone mounted on you in BJJ practice- this is obvious. Does anyone here find that in judo practices people actually hold osaekomi for 20-25 seconds? I've seen people do it, but I don't get why especially if the person on bottom has demonstrated their inability to escape (often due to fatigue). On the other end, how do people treat people on the bottom? Usually I hold osaekomi until I feel like that can't escape, then I switch to a submission to make the most out of the time for both our sakes.

This thread is fun to hijack.

Taiobroshi wrote:

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

JudoStu wrote: Realising that Tate-shiho-gatame counts for nothing in BJJ

This isn't quite right, in a sport BJJ match attaining it gives you four points due to its excellence as a platform for the punching of faces. It's a bad position, you should treat it as such and exchange it for anything except back-control at the earlies opportunity (which it sounds like you did, good work).

It means something different depending on what you're trying to achieve. If my goal is to work on defending chokes from mount, it does not make sense to try to escape the position until the opponent tries a submission. The only rule in randori is to learn and, especially if the person is not guided by competition, then the meaning of things that happen in randori is up to them. I'm trying to dig at you, PointyShiningBurning, but trying to justify actions in a free thing like randori based off real-life situations or IBJJF competition doesn't always work.

I think JudoStu was saying was that tate-shiho-gatame in shiai counts for a lot more than someone mounted on you in BJJ practice- this is obvious. Does anyone here find that in judo practices people actually hold osaekomi for 20-25 seconds? I've seen people do it, but I don't get why especially if the person on bottom has demonstrated their inability to escape (often due to fatigue). On the other end, how do people treat people on the bottom? Usually I hold osaekomi until I feel like that can't escape, then I switch to a submission to make the most out of the time for both our sakes.

This thread is fun to hijack.

In my experience, when we do Newaza randori in Judo, people will hold osaekomi until the other person taps. Then restart from the usual kneeling position.
When I said that tate-shiho-gatame meant nothing in BJJ, what I meant was that the person on top is not going to sit there and wait for you to tap, they will use that position to go for a sub, so there is no need for the person on the bottom to panic and try and escape until they see an opening.

One of the big differences between the way that BJJ and Judo is taught is that in Judo a beginner is treated gently, especially in randori where there partner will often “take a fall” if they have gotten enough elements of a throw right. Also in Newaza they are unlikely to be choked and arm barred. In BJJ a beginner is murdered by all until someone else new starts and then the previous beginner has someone he can murder. The BJJ way is certainly harder for the beginner but I do notice that they improve really quickly or leave

Taiobroshi wrote:

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

JudoStu wrote: Realising that Tate-shiho-gatame counts for nothing in BJJ

This isn't quite right, in a sport BJJ match attaining it gives you four points due to its excellence as a platform for the punching of faces. It's a bad position, you should treat it as such and exchange it for anything except back-control at the earlies opportunity (which it sounds like you did, good work).

It means something different depending on what you're trying to achieve. If my goal is to work on defending chokes from mount, it does not make sense to try to escape the position until the opponent tries a submission. The only rule in randori is to learn and, especially if the person is not guided by competition, then the meaning of things that happen in randori is up to them. I'm trying to dig at you, PointyShiningBurning, but trying to justify actions in a free thing like randori based off real-life situations or IBJJF competition doesn't always work.

The heart of BJJ is the positional hierarchy, not submissions. What you are trying to learn, if what you're learning is BJJ, is to escape from and avoid being caught in the mount. Certainly you can practise there, get comfortable, take you time escaping in practise sometimes, make yourself vulnerable for learning and so on, but its meaning is not up to you any-more than the meaning of being caught in a choke is up to you.

When I said that tate-shiho-gatame meant nothing in BJJ, what I meant was that the person on top is not going to sit there and wait for you to tap, they will use that position to go for a sub, so there is no need for the person on the bottom to panic and try and escape until they see an opening.

Not panicking is good, but don't fall into the trap of being content with bad positions as long as you're not getting subbed. Spending five minutes under mount in BJJ is not hanging, it's losing, you need to open up and create motion, and you need to be able to do that even if the other guy just wants to stall. I'm saying this not to be critical, but because I've seen more than one person gimp their progress by being under the misapprehension that submissions are the only win conditions in the game.

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

Taiobroshi wrote:

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

JudoStu wrote: Realising that Tate-shiho-gatame counts for nothing in BJJ

This isn't quite right, in a sport BJJ match attaining it gives you four points due to its excellence as a platform for the punching of faces. It's a bad position, you should treat it as such and exchange it for anything except back-control at the earlies opportunity (which it sounds like you did, good work).

It means something different depending on what you're trying to achieve. If my goal is to work on defending chokes from mount, it does not make sense to try to escape the position until the opponent tries a submission. The only rule in randori is to learn and, especially if the person is not guided by competition, then the meaning of things that happen in randori is up to them. I'm trying to dig at you, PointyShiningBurning, but trying to justify actions in a free thing like randori based off real-life situations or IBJJF competition doesn't always work.

The heart of BJJ is the positional hierarchy, not submissions. What you are trying to learn, if what you're learning is BJJ, is to escape from and avoid being caught in the mount. Certainly you can practise there, get comfortable, take you time escaping in practise sometimes, make yourself vulnerable for learning and so on, but its meaning is not up to you any-more than the meaning of being caught in a choke is up to you.

When I said that tate-shiho-gatame meant nothing in BJJ, what I meant was that the person on top is not going to sit there and wait for you to tap, they will use that position to go for a sub, so there is no need for the person on the bottom to panic and try and escape until they see an opening.

Not panicking is good, but don't fall into the trap of being content with bad positions as long as you're not getting subbed. Spending five minutes under mount in BJJ is not hanging, it's losing, you need to open up and create motion, and you need to be able to do that even if the other guy just wants to stall. I'm saying this not to be critical, but because I've seen more than one person gimp their progress by being under the misapprehension that submissions are the only win conditions in the game.

Absolutely, my goal is to get in a good position myself. You can teach someone a dozen submissions but if they never get in a good enough position to pull it off it its worthless.

Position before submission although submission attempt sometimes allow you to gain better positions. Its a tricky one this

Taiobroshi wrote:Does anyone here find that in judo practices people actually hold osaekomi for 20-25 seconds? I've seen people do it, but I don't get why especially if the person on bottom has demonstrated their inability to escape (often due to fatigue).

I always hold osae-komi for at least 25 seconds and encourage the person pinned to attempt to escape for at least that length of time.

If someone taps out, I usually tell them to keep trying to escape and not give up. Usually I will modify the hold to allow them a chance to practice escape techniques (eg. use only one arm, or no arms etc...)

I think it is a bad habit to give up from osae-komi, certainly within the first 30 seconds.

Generally I will give them longer than 25 seconds and then start switching holds.

it all depends on the goals of that specific newaza randori session. if we're working on osae komi deliberately, then I'll keep the pin. if we're doing short interval (like 20 second rounds) randori, then I don't even bother setting the pin, and go for a sub. but that's just me.

...20 second rounds?

yes, 20 second rounds. a great way to encourage the explosivity needed in judo newaza (I understand the rules now make newaza more available, but it's still a good practice). it's not the only form of newaza randori we do, but it is a very fun and worthwhile learning exercise, and a great way to get people's blood flowing at the beginning of class before stretching without having to do the normal pre judo calisthenics ad nauseum. it really is, if nothing else, a great form of cardio training. basically if done right it's a HIIT routine.

Explosive ne waza before stretching? really???

it's not as bad as it sounds. the idea of using newaza randori as a form of warmup was introduced to me by Nick Lowe at a clinic. explosive doesn't mean reckless or uncontrolled, it just means very active. and it's the last stage of the warmup before stretching, not the first. we've had good results with it thus far.

genetic judoka wrote:it's not as bad as it sounds. the idea of using newaza randori as a form of warmup was introduced to me by Nick Lowe at a clinic. explosive doesn't mean reckless or uncontrolled, it just means very active. and it's the last stage of the warmup before stretching, not the first. we've had good results with it thus far.

We often do light Newaza randori as a warm up, just moving from pin to pin, using plenty of sweeps and not using any strength.I agree its more interesting than the usual running around the mat, press ups sit ups etc etc

I work with a guy who used to wrestle when he lived in the states (he is American), anyway I’ve just found out that didn’t just dabble with wrestling but was actually NCAA Division 1 and finished 4th in his last year of college.
He was interested when I told him I did BJJ the other night and is going to pay them a visit to see what it’s all about. Should he be upfront with the instructor before he takes to the mats? How do you think his wrestling will translate with a gi under BJJ rules?

JudoStu wrote:I work with a guy who used to wrestle when he lived in the states (he is American), anyway I’ve just found out that didn’t just dabble with wrestling but was actually NCAA Division 1 and finished 4th in his last year of college.
He was interested when I told him I did BJJ the other night and is going to pay them a visit to see what it’s all about. Should he be upfront with the instructor before he takes to the mats? How do you think his wrestling will translate with a gi under BJJ rules?

White belts stand with white belts. The exception is if he is going to give a wrestling seminar or something, then he has the teaching role so he should stand with the teachers.

Dutch Budo wrote:

JudoStu wrote:I work with a guy who used to wrestle when he lived in the states ... (he was) actually NCAA Division 1 and finished 4th in his last year of college.

Should he be upfront with the instructor before he takes to the mats? How do you think his wrestling will translate with a gi under BJJ rules?

White belts stand with white belts.

I would have thought it would be polite of him to let the instructor know of his previous experience.