My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

judoratt wrote:Nice job getting out there, congratulations on the silver.
BTW Don't quit your day job.

Judoratt! ack! Come on.lol I dont like seeing 'asia(n)' in your eyeball picker pic. The ball n chain is asian.lol

Your technique, especially hip movement, has improved a lot since we last saw you.

Things:

-When you tried to reverse him with sumi gaeshi, it would've been better to scoot in, thrust your foot towards his crotch and grab his belt so you could actually get underneath him, which you didn't do

-You transitioned your grip at 1:30 which meant he could rip it free and posture at 1:45. You don't want to let grips go ever when he's that far bent forward with his ass up, unless you're doing the single leg guard/leg lace thing that I do

-There are other ways to finish triangles that won't hurt your ligaments. I hate to say it, but pick up eddie bravo's books.

-Before 3:41 you should have tried your best to insert your hand under his chest. From that position you probably can't move his head upwards without risking a keylock.

-Hooking the leg like you did at 3:50 doesn't really do much for you. It can drag his foot across the mat long enough to bring your other foot into play to capture it, but that demands a really fast scissoring action

-4:40 you had a clear escape opportunity. His leg was straight out and elevated. That bottom foot of yours (the one that was pushing his knee with the sole) should have come through, hooked under his thigh and swung you way under. You got out anyway, which was good, but it wasn't due to the action you were making on his leg at the time

-What happened with the uchi mata at 5:23? Did chubby drive you over or were you trying to roll into a kneebar or something?

-Good sweep at 6:35

hedgehogey wrote:Your technique, especially hip movement, has improved a lot since we last saw you.

thanks

Things:

-When you tried to reverse him with sumi gaeshi, it would've been better to scoot in, thrust your foot towards his crotch and grab his belt so you could actually get underneath him, which you didn't do

agreed. what I shoulda done is jump for the flying armbar that I've practiced from that position a million times. or straighten the leg that was still on the ground, put my foot in his stomach and rotate downward for the "backwards" yoko tomoe nage that I know. or gone for ouchi gari, or tried to rip my foot free and restart, or any number of things... frankly anything other than what I actually did.

-You transitioned your grip at 1:30 which meant he could rip it free and posture at 1:45. You don't want to let grips go ever when he's that far bent forward with his ass up, unless you're doing the single leg guard/leg lace thing that I do

I for some reason thought going for the arm (which was extended at the time) was a good idea. but as soon as my feet moved he defended, killing that idea. and freeing him from a bad position.

-There are other ways to finish triangles that won't hurt your ligaments. I hate to say it, but pick up eddie bravo's books.

from what I gather his books are 10% talking about grappling, 90% talking about weed and strippers. but if you think there's actually something worthwhile in there I'll take a look.

-Before 3:41 you should have tried your best to insert your hand under his chest. From that position you probably can't move his head upwards without risking a keylock.

which hand?

-Hooking the leg like you did at 3:50 doesn't really do much for you. It can drag his foot across the mat long enough to bring your other foot into play to capture it, but that demands a really fast scissoring action

damn those judo instincts...

-4:40 you had a clear escape opportunity. His leg was straight out and elevated. That bottom foot of yours (the one that was pushing his knee with the sole) should have come through, hooked under his thigh and swung you way under. You got out anyway, which was good, but it wasn't due to the action you were making on his leg at the time

to be honest I didn't really have much of a plan at that point. it was about there that I had decided it was ok to go into freak out mode and gtfo by any means necessary because I was losing anyway. before that I had been trying to conserve energy.

-What happened with the uchi mata at 5:23? Did chubby drive you over or were you trying to roll into a kneebar or something?

it was actually an attempt at hane goshi. I wanted to go for something big to try to make up for my first match. my knee did something funny and collapsed, so I tried to spin into guard before a bad situation became a terrible situation. and the dude, despite his pudgy appearance, was actually really strong, and not as pudgy as he looked. he just had a rather unfortunate build, in addition to being kinda pudgy.

-Good sweep at 6:35

thanks, I'm still surprised it worked as well as it (almost) did, given that I pretty much made it up on the fly.

thanks for the pointers. when I went into class last night we spent almost the whole practice working on sweeps that can be done when someone has an arm under one leg, I wish we'd done that before the tournament!

Congrats on the silver and thanks for sharing the video.
Do you normally pull guard when you roll/do newaza in class? I ask as you looked pretty comfortable off your back. Being a Judoka first most would have expected you to prefer top game rather than bottom

JudoStu wrote:Congrats on the silver and thanks for sharing the video.
Do you normally pull guard when you roll/do newaza in class? I ask as you looked pretty comfortable off your back. Being a Judoka first most would have expected you to prefer top game rather than bottom

yes, I strongly prefer playing off my back, as it allows me to make full use of my long legs. if my training partner(s) that day wants to work their guard I'll happily work on my top game for the sake of exposure, but guard is where I wanna start (unless of course unlike the video I manage to throw someone, in which case I am happy to start in side control).

genetic judoka wrote:

JudoStu wrote:Congrats on the silver and thanks for sharing the video.
Do you normally pull guard when you roll/do newaza in class? I ask as you looked pretty comfortable off your back. Being a Judoka first most would have expected you to prefer top game rather than bottom

yes, I strongly prefer playing off my back, as it allows me to make full use of my long legs. if my training partner(s) that day wants to work their guard I'll happily work on my top game for the sake of exposure, but guard is where I wanna start (unless of course unlike the video I manage to throw someone, in which case I am happy to start in side control).

being tall mysefl with long legs i'm pretty much the same, i much prefer pulling guard when I do Newaza and looking for triangles and armbars.My top game isn't good though and I know its something I have to work on.

Same here although my top game is a lot better nowadays, I still prefer the bottom. You can see my most recent matches in this same sub forum. There was one fight I fought predominantly on top (be it against a decent purple belt). Maybe its also because I like to fight against heavier guys I end up on the bottom a lot.

so this is the first chance I've gotten to write this up, but I wanted to talk about some differences in tournament structure between judo and BJJ. to be honest, though some of the aspects would be unworkable in judo, I liked the BJJ format much better.

for one, mat areas were shared (this is the part that couldn't be done in judo for obvious reasons). the mat are was 2 wrestling mats, each one having as many as 4 matches happening on it at the same time. as pairs got too close to each other, they'd pause the clock, separate them, and keep going. as such there was no going out of bounds to get stood back up, since there was no "out of bounds." imagine how much faster a judo tournament would be run if there were 8 mat areas.

when you check in, they give you a card with your name on it, and which division you were fighting in (as in blue belt, purple belt, etc.). you take that card over to the weigh in area and the guy running the scales writes your weight on the card. there was a sign on the wall saying where each group was to go (like "adult blue belts - table 7).

when I got to my table, there were two guys sitting there. you put your card in a little basket. one guy was running the clock and the scoreboard. the other guy was organizing the cards and writing the brackets for the next division. you knew when you would be up because they started with the lightest division, finished it out and started the next. there was no 2 hour pause between matches, and the mat was only empty if it was the gold medal match next and one of the competitors had just finished fighting, and even then it was only a few minutes. there was no need to wait 3 hours for all the brackets to be made before they could start, brackets were being made as the division before it was finishing.

there was one ref on the mat for each pair, all calls were final. other than on my two matches where I didn't think my opponent deserved points for the takedown (which may just be sour grapes), I didn't see any questionable calls. I guess that's the benefit of a more straight forward ruleset.

there was no BS about "do you think it's a fair match for lil timmy to fight lil jimmy?" "but timmy is 6 inches taller, I don't think jimmy should have to fight him despite being the same age weight and rank." instead it was "this is your division, so this is who you're fighting, or you're not fighting at all." and nobody complained, it was just accepted that this is the way it is. there was no sense of being entitled to your kid only fight people you think they can beat, it was "this is who showed up, do you wanna fight or not?"

also, there was prize money! there was the absolute division (basically any rank any weight, mainly black brown and purple belts) with a $500 purse, and the open weight division for each belt had a $150 purse. now that's not exactly enough to make a living but it's enough that if you win it'll cover your entry fee and travel expenses, plus a bit of beer money for afterward. and for me it was a lot easier to justify the entry fee ($70)to my wife when there was a chance of making all that money back. I didn't enter it this time despite having signed up for it (the entry fee woulda been 60 without the fee for that div) because I hurt my hand and didn't wanna risk further injury, but I will certainly be signing up for it next time.

of couse I've only been to one tournament, I don't know how others are structured, but I think that was a good setup, and a good experience.

Some tournaments are well organized like the one you mentioned. Seems to be good in order. But Ive also been to tournaments where I showed up at 9 in the morning and had my first match at 17 and my last at 23 in the night. And this wasnt even a local thing.

I want to hear more about your experiences in BJJ as a Judo player Genetic. Is it harder in some ways to throw these guys because of their bent-over posture? Is it rougher fighting in a BJJ comp or Judo Shiai? Which sport is harder? Which is more fun? Some of these questions might be inane- but I just want to get you talking because I love reading your stuff.

I myself am thinking of taking BJJ a couple of days a week (because it's right near my house AND is offered in the morning before work), even though I have a feeling I won't like it 10% as much as I do Judo.

It makes me ill how much BJJ there is out there and how little Judo there is...

Anyway- keep posting- I demand it. If you don't write more frequently then I'm going to start PM'ing you seeking throw advice. You don't want that. So get writing!

There are 3 commercial BJJ gyms thriving in my town compared to 1 non-profit judo dojo that barely makes the rent. I agree on using BJJ for cross training, but no offense, GJ, nothing about that video looks like something I would care at all to do for its own sake.

Heisenberg, having divined what the rules of BJJ are, is now unable to know their purpose.

Heisenberg wrote:There are 3 commercial BJJ gyms thriving in my town compared to 1 non-profit judo dojo that barely makes the rent. I agree on using BJJ for cross training, but no offense, GJ, nothing about that video looks like something I would care at all to do for its own sake.

Would you care to elaborate on this?
Just curious to know what you didn’t like about it.

JudoStu wrote:

Heisenberg wrote:There are 3 commercial BJJ gyms thriving in my town compared to 1 non-profit judo dojo that barely makes the rent. I agree on using BJJ for cross training, but no offense, GJ, nothing about that video looks like something I would care at all to do for its own sake.

Would you care to elaborate on this?
Just curious to know what you didn’t like about it.

It's nothing to do with this performance in particular. I have always disliked the idea of pulling guard and the progression of most BJJ matches is often incredibly slow. I, personally, much prefer judo rules to spending 5 minutes wrestling from guard. I'm not in any way suggesting that there isn't considerable skill involved in winning at BJJ, just that I'd rather apply those skills elsewhere, and I haven't yet figured out how the sport became so popular.

This thread has been a great read for me, thanks for posting all your experiences.

genetic judoka wrote: there was no BS about "do you think it's a fair match for lil timmy to fight lil jimmy?" "but timmy is 6 inches taller, I don't think jimmy should have to fight him despite being the same age weight and rank." instead it was "this is your division, so this is who you're fighting, or you're not fighting at all." and nobody complained, it was just accepted that this is the way it is. there was no sense of being entitled to your kid only fight people you think they can beat, it was "this is who showed up, do you wanna fight or not?"

I have never seen this here. Our judo tournaments are generally well-organized, and if you are in the age and weight category, that's where you are. I've never seen parents complaining about it.

NYCNewbie wrote:I want to hear more about your experiences in BJJ as a Judo player Genetic. Is it harder in some ways to throw these guys because of their bent-over posture? Is it rougher fighting in a BJJ comp or Judo Shiai? Which sport is harder? Which is more fun? Some of these questions might be inane- but I just want to get you talking because I love reading your stuff.

I myself am thinking of taking BJJ a couple of days a week (because it's right near my house AND is offered in the morning before work), even though I have a feeling I won't like it 10% as much as I do Judo.

It makes me ill how much BJJ there is out there and how little Judo there is...

Anyway- keep posting- I demand it. If you don't write more frequently then I'm going to start PM'ing you seeking throw advice. You don't want that. So get writing!

I can't say much about how hard it is to throw BJJ people, because I haven't successfully thrown any of them in competition yet. in the normal classes we don't do ANY standup, and in the only saturday standup class I attended we didn't do any randori. but in the beginnings of class I'll often grab someone and pretend like I'm gonna throw them (general horseplay) and it's pretty clear that if I were being serious they'd get thrown hard. in terms of which one is more fun to compete in, that's a tough one. I think there's nothing more gratifying that seeing someone go skyward then earthward with a loud thud as a result of an action that required almost no physical strength. but at the same time I enjoy groundwork a lot, and find it gratifying to work more specifically on that, without the option of winning by throw. also there's a lot more BJJ comps available in my area, and frankly I'm so annoyed by the frequent rule changes that I'm considering not competing in more than 1-2 judo tournaments per year anymore, but I have no problem with competing in as many BJJ comps as I can. and given that there's prize money, my wife is fine with that too. also, my biggest issue with competing in judo is the issues I have with my knee. namely the need to pivot while my knee is bent. and that is very much avoidable in BJJ, making me a lot less nervous about entering tournaments.

if you are thinking about signing up, I say do it, it's fun.

Heisenberg wrote:

JudoStu wrote:

Heisenberg wrote:There are 3 commercial BJJ gyms thriving in my town compared to 1 non-profit judo dojo that barely makes the rent. I agree on using BJJ for cross training, but no offense, GJ, nothing about that video looks like something I would care at all to do for its own sake.

Would you care to elaborate on this?
Just curious to know what you didn’t like about it.

It's nothing to do with this performance in particular. I have always disliked the idea of pulling guard and the progression of most BJJ matches is often incredibly slow. I, personally, much prefer judo rules to spending 5 minutes wrestling from guard. I'm not in any way suggesting that there isn't considerable skill involved in winning at BJJ, just that I'd rather apply those skills elsewhere, and I haven't yet figured out how the sport became so popular.

I guess that just comes down to personal preference. I like groundwork, and have no problem "wrestling for 5 min from the guard" because my guard is strong, and I can pull off a lot of subs from there. it's not for everyone. also, there's nothing stopping you from getting very good at getting past the guard immediately, and then working "for 5 minutes" for a sub from the top. I'm not gonna try to talk you into joining BJJ, if you don't wanna do it, don't do it.

Neil G wrote:This thread has been a great read for me, thanks for posting all your experiences.

genetic judoka wrote: there was no BS about "do you think it's a fair match for lil timmy to fight lil jimmy?" "but timmy is 6 inches taller, I don't think jimmy should have to fight him despite being the same age weight and rank." instead it was "this is your division, so this is who you're fighting, or you're not fighting at all." and nobody complained, it was just accepted that this is the way it is. there was no sense of being entitled to your kid only fight people you think they can beat, it was "this is who showed up, do you wanna fight or not?"

I have never seen this here. Our judo tournaments are generally well-organized, and if you are in the age and weight category, that's where you are. I've never seen parents complaining about it.

the more I learn about judo shiai in canada the more jealous I become that they're run so well up there. maybe one of these days I'll talk my wife into going on vacation to somewhere cold.


it's been a while since my last update. some of my more noteworthy recent experiences are choking out a black belt (my old secret weapon, the baseball bat choke), putting a brown belt that's twice my size to sleep (same choke), and securing my first leg lock on a purple belt (first leg lock in randori in general). I am really enjoying training there, and slowly but surely feel like I'm becoming part of the 'team' there.

also I'm becoming more aware of the so called 'slow' style of play, where it's not a matter of people taking it easy on you or something, they're just deliberately not explosive and are very slow about everything. I find it very frustrating to work with them as this is not my style at all. well, I gotta get back to work but I'll write a longer post when I have more time.

What's with all the choke-outs? Don't people tap there?

Neil G wrote:What's with all the choke-outs? Don't people tap there?

I may have misused the term "choke out" to me that is the term for someone tapping due to choke, whereas "put to sleep" is used when they don't tap and go to sleep. the brown belt didn't tap. everyone else did. in all of my martial arts experience I've only put 4 people to sleep, whereas I've choked people out hundreds of times.

also, chokes are sorta my thing.

genetic judoka wrote:in fact I've only landed a few armbars the whole time I've been going (often I'll land some in my first time working with someone, then they kinda figure out that I'm a mistake hunter, and they start being more careful).

[quote="hedgehogey"]Try just getting to the armbar position then finding the next option. Don't think "I have to armbar him!". While that sometimes works, it often burns out the muscles used. Just get there, advance along the armbar progression if he lets you, and if he doesn't, look at the next fork in the road. Maybe he raised his non-trapped side knee, so it's time to flower/pendulum sweep. Maybe he pulls his arm away entirely but his head's still trapped so it's time to weigh heavy on that leg and smash him with the crucifix guard. Maybe it's time to switch to the triangle position.[/quote="hedgehogey"]

Actually, you can do the same thing in Judo, even in shiai, if you work more or less continuously and quickly (smooth counts for a lot). However, if one doesn't learn groundwork like that in the first place, it's tough to get started.

The trend now is to allow more ne waza time (this from the IJF), and I've seen that born out in the last 6 months here in the Pacific NW (which may do you guys no good anyplace else, LOL). This change in attitude/interpetation towards progress allowed one of my students to armbar once and choke out two guys out of 5-6 matches. None of those were explosive smash and grab type entries...progress was being made, the refs saw it, and let it happen.

genetic judoka wrote:for those of you that are still interested in this thread I figured I'd give an update. it's looking like I'll be competing in my first BJJ tournament next saturday. unless I face some kind of unforeseen technical difficulties, I will be competing in the blue belt division. my intention is to skip a majority of the judo classes for the next week and go over there instead, hopefully getting some last minute help on defending leg locks (the one thing that still worries me, though I've found most of the leg lock defense pretty intuitive thus far).

and I realized I didn't really reply to the most recent posts in here. the reason I do BJJ is to improve my newaza overall. judo newaza thrives on explosiveness, speed, and surprise. BJJ newaza is more methodical, and more precise. will everything I learn in BJJ be of direct benefit to judo shiai? absolutely not. much of what I've learned thus far will not transfer over. but what will transfer over is the experience of working with people who specialize in an area of grappling that I'm weak in. plus learning to be more precise while doing explosive movements can't possibly hurt. a big part of why I'm doing BJJ is that's the only place one can still do some parts of "real" judo in competition (I know you can still do whatever you want in your club, that point need not be repeated).

No,you just learned it that way. If you will consider it all Judo, you will free up some processing power and a few gig of RAM.

Mi

Ben Reinhardt wrote:
The trend now is to allow more ne waza time (this from the IJF), and I've seen that born out in the last 6 months here in the Pacific NW (which may do you guys no good anyplace else, LOL). This change in attitude/interpetation towards progress allowed one of my students to armbar once and choke out two guys out of 5-6 matches. None of those were explosive smash and grab type entries...progress was being made, the refs saw it, and let it happen.

This is the same direction we have been getting here as refs, and as a result we are seeing some very nice newaza. It is a relief to be able to let them fight it out. Of course we are still dealing with limited time, so if the progress being made is of a grinding sort you have to stand them up. Still it is way better than before.

genetic judoka wrote:took second place in the blue belt heavyweight division. I looked like crap, but I chalk that up to being rusty as hell from not competing since before my surgery (making this my first tournament since august). my attempts at throwing were embarrassing, and I almost don't wanna post the video, but I said I would.

in the first match I tried to ignore my judo instincts to freak the f out and try to explode outta side control, based on the idea that he'd have to try to go for a submission, and that would be my opportunity, so I tried to save my energy. that match flew by so fast! when they threw the belt at us I thought we still had like 3 minutes. the second match I have no idea what happened with the throw, but I assume it was much like the first, in that I hesitated because my knees hurt (not an excuse, but an attempt at an explanation) and that cost me the points. the first one was a legit sumi gaeshi attempt though. I'm embarrassed but I may get another chance on the 30th.

Plain Kouchi Gari was the friend you ignored in favor of the sexier Uchi Mata. You also forgot that hot little number kumi kata who would have helped if only you had invited her to play.

See WB, it's easy...post a video, nobody will make fun of you (much).



Seriously, you have cojones granded (according to judoratt, um I mean, for posting video.

hedgehogey wrote:Heisenberg, having divined what the rules of BJJ are, is now unable to know their purpose.

He's uncertain as a matter of principle.

Neil G wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:
The trend now is to allow more ne waza time (this from the IJF), and I've seen that born out in the last 6 months here in the Pacific NW (which may do you guys no good anyplace else, LOL). This change in attitude/interpetation towards progress allowed one of my students to armbar once and choke out two guys out of 5-6 matches. None of those were explosive smash and grab type entries...progress was being made, the refs saw it, and let it happen.

This is the same direction we have been getting here as refs, and as a result we are seeing some very nice newaza. It is a relief to be able to let them fight it out. Of course we are still dealing with limited time, so if the progress being made is of a grinding sort you have to stand them up. Still it is way better than before.

Be bold, don't stand them up even if it's "grinding progress" until the corners both tell you to do it.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:
Be bold, don't stand them up even if it's "grinding progress" until the corners both tell you to do it.

I am pretty liberal with the time. The feedback I've been getting from the senior people is that I'm calling it at the right time.