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NBK
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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    NavyRN
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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    Post by NavyRN Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:56 am

    I need some help.  I have a friend that has a kimono company, and we are trying to produce the Kohaku obi.  Can anyone tell me what the official dimensions of the red and white panels are?  I greatly appreciate your help.

    Thank you,

    Andy
    Cichorei Kano
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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Re: Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:19 am

    NavyRN wrote:I need some help.  I have a friend that has a kimono company, and we are trying to produce the Kohaku obi.  Can anyone tell me what the official dimensions of the red and white panels are?  I greatly appreciate your help.

    Thank you,

    Andy
    Where do you get the idea that there would exist something like "the official dimensions of the red and white panels are" ?


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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Dry

    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    NavyRN
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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Re: Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    Post by NavyRN Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:22 am

    There are always standards for everything. The IJF dictates the dimensions of the Gi and the belt, so why would there not be specific dimensions for the Kohaku Obi? Besides, who would want to put out an incorrect product?
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:50 am

    To the best of my knowledge there are no standard dimensions. The kohaku obi is not worn in competition so no need for the IJF to rule. I believe customarily - the longer the belt, the longer the panels.


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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:09 am

    NavyRN wrote:There are always standards for everything.  
    I see.

    NavyRN wrote:The IJF dictates the dimensions of the Gi and the belt,
    To some extent. The IJF prescribes the as part of the refereeing rules a number of conditions a gi needs to meet in order to be approved for participating in IJF-organized championships and tournaments.

    The IJF does not prescribes the dimensions of the belt anywhere in the refereeing rules. Even if it would, it would only apply to IJF-organized championships and tournaments, but it doesn't. It does prescribe one criterion, but that does not have anything to do with 'dimensions', namely that female black belt holders may not wear a joshi-belt (in IJF-mandated championships and tournaments) but have to wear a plain black belt. Also, the IJF prescribes the tying of a belt in IJF-competitions, which is far more narrow than outside this contests, although today most people (not all, I don't) in judo tie their belts in the same way. These kind of things are part of Art. 3 of the Refereeing Rules:

    c) 7) The contestant's name may be worn on the belt,

    f) A strong belt, 4 (1.6”) to 5cm (2”) wide, whose color corresponds to the grade, shall be worn over the jacket going twice around it at waist, and tied with a square knot with the first loops inside the knot, tight enough to prevent the jacket from being too loose and long enough to leave 20 (8”) to 30cm (12”) protruding from each side of the knot when tied.


    However, the IJF as part of its Organizing Rules, specifically in Annex 5 (most recent edition, July 2010) describes the manufacturing rules for belts, in addition to gi, with the purpose of being allowed the wear the label "IJF-approved". If one extrapolates this to that a competitor should only be allowed to ... wear an IJF-approved belt then perhaps one could argue in that sense. However, so far except for the length after tying the belt is not examined as it has little or no effect on the fight itself and there would be no end to doing this as people can far more quickly change a belt than a judogi. Anyhow, the manufacturing rules for IJF-approved belts are as follows:

    International Judo Federation has established a system of technical approval for Judogi and belt which must be used during IJF official events.

    All Judogi and belts for IJF official events must conform tothese requirements before 1 January 2011 and must be obligatory with the official ag of the IJF or else it won’t be allowed in competition.

    If a company approved as an official supplier needs to obtain the OfficialLabel provided by IJF, the manufacturer of the company must produce Judogi and belt in accordance with the rules. Then, the following must be sent to one of the officialIJF testing laboratories for inspection and approval:

    -Two black belts (Length of the belt to be sent should be between 2,5m and 3m)1c)

    2c(3) Belt

    • The belt of Judogi must use 100 % cotton fabric (A), The manufacturers must not produce such a belt as to be easily knot-loosen or broken, which can cause disturbance of the match.
    • Main core material must be non-woven fabric. (must not be elastic materials such as rubber.)
    • Reinforcement fabric (B) must be as specifiedin Fig. 16 using plain or twill weave with cotton yarn count 20/1 or lower. Sub core (D) is allowed to use as shown in Fig.16. Sub core material (center of the belt cross-section) must be the same as reinforcement fabric (B). Use of sub core is optional.
    • The belt must be 4 to 4.5 cm wide
    • The belt must be sewn using at least 8-row but no more than 13-row of straight stitch.
    • The thickness of the belt must be between 4 mm and 5 mm.

    As shown in the photo (Fig. 18), belt should have the flexibility (softness).When pushing belt by hand from the both ends toward knot, the belt knot must not be loosening. Belt using too hard or slippery materials, which is easy to have knot loosening, is not allowed.

    Belt-testing criteria by an IJF-approved lab involve a pass/fail on the following items:

    1. Outer-face fabric must be 100 % cotton. Belt must be sturdy and not be easily loosen or broken.

    2. Main core must be non-woven fabric. (rubbers or elastics not allowed)
    3. Reinforcement fabric must be cotton plain or twill using yarn count 20/1 or fine.
    4. Sub-core (optional), if used, must be the same material as reinforcement.
    5. Belt width must be 4 cm to 4.5 cm
    6. Stitch: 8 to 13 rows of straight stitches.
    7. The thickness of Belt must be in the range of 4 mm to 5 mm.
    8. Belt should have flexibility(softness). When pushing belt by hand from the both ends toward knot, the belt knot must not be loosening.


    The above is an extrapolation that started with a letter sent by Yamashita Y. on December 15, 2004, when he still held the position of IJF Education Director.

    Now, this is all, no doubt, very interesting lecture, but as I had already suggested with far less words ... not a single word about red & white panels. If one thinks about this, this also no surprise since ... red- and white-paneled belts are not worn in IJF competitions, firstly because very few jûdôka hold a rank of 6th dan or higher while still at competitive age and active in international competitions, and ... even if they did, it is not allowed to wear such a belt in IJF-competitons. It is prohibited even IJF-kata contests (IJF Kata Contest Rules Art. 5: "The belt is black, 4 to 5 cm wide and long enough to go twice around the waist and leave 20 to 30 cm protruding from each side of the knot when tied."). By the way, the IJF also does not prescribe the exact tint of black for belts on the pantone scale, nor for any other belts.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:27 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Dry

    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Re: Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    Post by NBK Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:15 am

    It's hard to imagine a 'kimono maker' that can't find samples - I could source them for a fee.
    contrarian
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    Post by contrarian Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:31 pm

    NavyRN wrote:I need some help.  I have a friend that has a kimono company, and we are trying to produce the Kohaku obi.  Can anyone tell me what the official dimensions of the red and white panels are?  I greatly appreciate your help.

    Thank you,

    Andy
    that's a big market.
    good luck.
    avatar
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    Post by Emanuele2 Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:15 pm

    This is a good kohaku belt, consider the panels should be large like this. Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Shihan-belt
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:10 pm

    The panels in a size 5.5, Kusakura, Kodokan branded kohaku obi, are, according to my ruler 16cm.


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    Post by NavyRN Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:29 am

    NBK wrote:It's hard to imagine a 'kimono maker' that can't find samples - I could source them for a fee.
    Of course one can find samples however, a legitimate company would conduct research to ensure that the obi is being manufactured correctly.  I came here with a legitimate question and for help from our community, not condescending, snide comments.  These type of comments are why the old forums fizzled out.

    Cichorei Kano,

    I get what you're saying about the IJF.  I have read the entire IJF regulations with regards to the Gi and Obi.  I was using that as a rough reference.  My whole point is, there has to be some standard to the Kohaku Obi otherwise, every belt would be different, and I find that difficult to accept.

    Thank you for your input Jonesy, Emanuele2, and Contrarian.
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:58 am

    NavyRN wrote:
    NBK wrote:It's hard to imagine a 'kimono maker' that can't find samples - I could source them for a fee.
    Of course one can find samples however, a legitimate company would conduct research to ensure that the obi is being manufactured correctly.  I came here with a legitimate question and for help from our community, not condescending, snide comments.  These type of comments are why the old forums fizzled out.

    Cichorei Kano,

    I get what you're saying about the IJF.  I have read the entire IJF regulations with regards to the Gi and Obi.  I was using that as a rough reference.  My whole point is, there has to be some standard to the Kohaku Obi otherwise, every belt would be different, and I find that difficult to accept.

    Thank you for your input Jonesy, Emanuele2, and Contrarian.
    They are all different. I have just measured a DanRho one and the panels are 12cm and that is a bigger size than 5.5. Generally though, the longer the belt. The longer the panels.
    Cichorei Kano
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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Re: Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:40 am

    NavyRN wrote:
    Cichorei Kano,

    I get what you're saying about the IJF.  I have read the entire IJF regulations with regards to the Gi and Obi.  I was using that as a rough reference.  My whole point is, there has to be some standard to the Kohaku Obi otherwise, every belt would be different, and I find that difficult to accept.
    It is not because you 'personally' believe that this is a problem, and because you 'personally' believe that difficult to accept that anyone else finds that this is a problem or difficult to accept. I don't and none of my teachers in the past either in the West or in Japan or any other kohaku-belt holder I have met finds that this is a problem unless they are FFJDA members. The FFJDA has standards because within the FFJDA the length of the panels is different for 6th than it is for 7th or 8th dan. This is obviously nonsense, but the French in everything they do, be it professional or whatever are very keen on titles and hierarchical difference. Multinational companies doing in business in France and having offices in France know this or should know this.

    Within the FFJDA the standards for red- and white belt, rather than kohaku obi called "shima obi" there, are:

    - 6th dan: 3 meters long with 20 cm panels
    - 7th dan: 3 meters long with 15 cm panels
    - 8th dan: 3 meters long with 10 cm panels

    The number of the rank is also written in Roman numerals on their belts over there, and they wear it on every occasion presumably even when they take showers or go to the loo.

    If one thinks about it, it would actually be a problem if there existed IJF standards. Knowing that Jean-Luc Rougé is an IJF vice-president and responsible for the rank and other stuff, any IJF standard would mean big trouble for him, because it is under his reign that the French started with the above nonsense in French. He would then have to justify why he would support another standard within the IJF than the standards he as president of the FFJDA has actually implemented in France. It would imply that unavoidably at least 2 of the groups would be wrong.

    The IJF really only prescribes things with regard to competition. There is no competition that involves kohaku-belts thus there is no reason for them to get involved. There are many other things in judo that the IJF does not have any standards on. And even if they did, most kohaku belts have nothing to do with the IJF as they are issued by the Kôdôkan. The Kôdôkan has more than 800 people who hold the rank of 8th dan. I am not even including all the 7th and 6th dan. There is no country in the world, not even France, that comes even close to that. So anyone trying to survive from selling kohaku-belts to the IJF, I can only second what our friend NBK already pointed out tongue-in-cheek.

    To add to our friend Jonesy, who has already kindly pointed out with practical examples from a Danrho belt where the panels are 12 cm, I can inform that those on my (Japanese) Mitsuboshi-brand belt are actually 14 cm long and those on my (also Japanese) Shureidô-brand belt are 10 cm long. I made the effort to go actually measure them, like Jonesy did. This is all approximately since all panels are often not exact and some panels may be 0.5 cm longer or shorter than others.

    When the belts were created and included by Kanô Jigorô in his 1931 book there is no further description in there.

    There are also no IJF standards for spitting bins next to the tatami, there are none for many other things in judo, especially for things that bear little or no relevance to competition, which is the main activity the IJF Is concerned with.

    Nothing more I can do to help you. That's all there is. Good luck !


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:24 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : correction of typos)


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    Post by Jonesy Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:20 am

    You can see photographs of the French belts at the foot of this page: http://seguin.jacques.free.fr/gli4.htm


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    Post by NavyRN Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:23 am

    Thanks for the input... I know that I may have come across as being a big supporter of the IJF, but in reality, I'm not that big of a fan.  I feel that they are doing more to hurt the art than to help it, but that's for another discussion.  I was just using it as a very loose reference.  Now that there clearly isn't a set standard, I'll relay this info to my buddy, and we can move ahead with production.

    BTW,

    This all came about because I want to have special, customized belts for my two Sensei (Rokudan and Hachidan) as Christmas presents.  Anyway, thanks again for all of the input.

    Cheers,

    Andy


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    Post by Jonesy Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:52 am

    They are pretty complicated to make. If you want something special and want to buy US then look here: http://www.eosinpanther.com/master-belt-c-22_32.html. Alternatively, the Kodokan silk kohaku obi (JGSRW) https://www.hint.jp/cgi-bin/kshop/kshop.pl/page=ob02.html/SID=1383143276.76562 must be pretty special too.


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    Post by NBK Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:46 pm

    contrarian wrote:
    NavyRN wrote:I need some help.  I have a friend that has a kimono company, and we are trying to produce the Kohaku obi.  Can anyone tell me what the official dimensions of the red and white panels are?  I greatly appreciate your help.

    Thank you,

    Andy
    that's a big market.
    good luck.
    Nycuk, nyuck, nyuck!!! Twisted Evil the knife slides between the ribs, then leaves, unnoticed but for the growing trail of blood....

    NavyRN wrote:
    NBK wrote:It's hard to imagine a 'kimono maker' that can't find samples - I could source them for a fee.
    Of course one can find samples however, a legitimate company would conduct research to ensure that the obi is being manufactured correctly.  I came here with a legitimate question and for help from our community, not condescending, snide comments.  These type of comments are why the old forums fizzled out.

    Cichorei Kano,

    I get what you're saying about the IJF.  I have read the entire IJF regulations with regards to the Gi and Obi.  I was using that as a rough reference.  My whole point is, there has to be some standard to the Kohaku Obi otherwise, every belt would be different, and I find that difficult to accept.

    Thank you for your input Jonesy, Emanuele2, and Contrarian.
    Snideness aside, the revisionist notion that I single handedly brought down the old forum, sold out to an internet company then made inaccessible by software problems and neglect, is a great laugh. I may put it on my resume.  

    I made a serious offer to help that would cost me time and effort to get them to you in Florida.  Maybe that's free in the Navy but outside the great socialist enterprise, there's a cost involved.  

    I did not question the legitimacy of your bud's company.  You did.  

    Every company's kohaku obi is different; why is that so hard to understand?  In fact, I'd bet that every contract run by sweatshops all over Asia produces belts that are slightly different.  There is simply not a precise standard.  

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NavyRN wrote:
    Cichorei Kano,

    I get what you're saying about the IJF.  I have read the entire IJF regulations with regards to the Gi and Obi.  I was using that as a rough reference.  My whole point is, there has to be some standard to the Kohaku Obi otherwise, every belt would be different, and I find that difficult to accept.
    It is not because you 'personally' believe that this is a problem, and because you 'personally' believe that difficult to accept that anyone else finds that this is a problem or difficult to accept. I don't and none of my teachers in the past either in the West or in Japan or any other kohaku-belt holder I have met finds that this is a problem unless they are FFJDA members. ____The FFJDA has standards because within the FFJDA the length of the panels is different for 6th than it is for 7th or 8th dan._____ This is obviously nonsense, but the French in everything they do, be it professional or whatever are very keen on titles and hierarchical difference. Multinational companies doing in business in France and having offices in France know this or should know this.

    Within the FFJDA the standards for red- and white belt, rather than kohaku obi called "shima obi" there, are:

    - 6th dan: 3 meters long with 20 cm panels
    - 7th dan: 3 meters long with 15 cm panels
    - 8th dan: 3 meters long with 10 cm panels

    .....
    Nothing more I can do to help you. That's all there is. Good luck !
    The French can be even nuttier than I had thought.  When I read this, I wonder how in the world such developed. Is some judo fashion god in Paris of who we should know, somehow offended by a rash of prior uneven belt blocks?  Do Chanel or Dior provide the French national team coaches' kohaku obi? jocolor 

    Perhaps we should employ the Golden Mean - that should give us an approximation of how innate taste compares to common usage, a rough measure of What Looks Right. I would bet that the current usage is very close.  

    NavyRN wrote:Thanks for the input... I know that I may have come across as being a big supporter of the IJF, but in reality, I'm not that big of a fan.  I feel that they are doing more to hurt the art than to help it, but that's for another discussion.  I was just using it as a very loose reference.  Now that there clearly isn't a set standard, I'll relay this info to my buddy, and we can move ahead with production.

    BTW,

    This all came about because I want to have special, customized belts for my two Sensei (Rokudan and Hachidan) as Christmas presents.  Anyway, thanks again for all of the input.

    Cheers,

    Andy
    Beware: no good deed goes unpunished....
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    Post by DougNZ Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:32 pm

    I have a kohaku belt from Kataaro.com, which has 10" panels with 14" ends (they have since started producing a 5" panel belt). I also have a custom-made kohaku belt with 2" panels. Pretty much anything in between will suffice!

    I received the Kataaro belt before the other, which means, by French standards, I must be regressing!!!
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    Post by Heisenberg Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:34 pm

    DougNZ wrote:I have a kohaku belt from Kataaro.com, which has 10" panels with 14" ends (they have since started producing a 5" panel belt).  I also have a custom-made kohaku belt with 2" panels.  Pretty much anything in between will suffice!

    I received the Kataaro belt before the other, which means, by French standards, I must be regressing!!!
    Kataaro will make it however you like, just tell them, give dimensions, etc..


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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Re: Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    Post by NavyRN Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:20 am

    NBK wrote:
    contrarian wrote:
    NavyRN wrote:I need some help.  I have a friend that has a kimono company, and we are trying to produce the Kohaku obi.  Can anyone tell me what the official dimensions of the red and white panels are?  I greatly appreciate your help.

    Thank you,

    Andy
    that's a big market.
    good luck.
    Nycuk, nyuck, nyuck!!! Twisted Evil the knife slides between the ribs, then leaves, unnoticed but for the growing trail of blood....

    NavyRN wrote:
    NBK wrote:It's hard to imagine a 'kimono maker' that can't find samples - I could source them for a fee.
    Of course one can find samples however, a legitimate company would conduct research to ensure that the obi is being manufactured correctly.  I came here with a legitimate question and for help from our community, not condescending, snide comments.  These type of comments are why the old forums fizzled out.

    Cichorei Kano,

    I get what you're saying about the IJF.  I have read the entire IJF regulations with regards to the Gi and Obi.  I was using that as a rough reference.  My whole point is, there has to be some standard to the Kohaku Obi otherwise, every belt would be different, and I find that difficult to accept.

    Thank you for your input Jonesy, Emanuele2, and Contrarian.
    Snideness aside, the revisionist notion that I single handedly brought down the old forum, sold out to an internet company then made inaccessible by software problems and neglect, is a great laugh.  I may put it on my resume.    

    I made a serious offer to help that would cost me time and effort to get them to you in Florida.  Maybe that's free in the Navy but outside the great socialist enterprise, there's a cost involved.  

    I did not question the legitimacy of your bud's company.  You did.  

    Every company's kohaku obi is different; why is that so hard to understand?  In fact, I'd bet that every contract run by sweatshops all over Asia produces belts that are slightly different.  There is simply not a precise standard.  

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NavyRN wrote:
    Cichorei Kano,

    I get what you're saying about the IJF.  I have read the entire IJF regulations with regards to the Gi and Obi.  I was using that as a rough reference.  My whole point is, there has to be some standard to the Kohaku Obi otherwise, every belt would be different, and I find that difficult to accept.
    It is not because you 'personally' believe that this is a problem, and because you 'personally' believe that difficult to accept that anyone else finds that this is a problem or difficult to accept. I don't and none of my teachers in the past either in the West or in Japan or any other kohaku-belt holder I have met finds that this is a problem unless they are FFJDA members. ____The FFJDA has standards because within the FFJDA the length of the panels is different for 6th than it is for 7th or 8th dan._____ This is obviously nonsense, but the French in everything they do, be it professional or whatever are very keen on titles and hierarchical difference. Multinational companies doing in business in France and having offices in France know this or should know this.

    Within the FFJDA the standards for red- and white belt, rather than kohaku obi called "shima obi" there, are:

    - 6th dan: 3 meters long with 20 cm panels
    - 7th dan: 3 meters long with 15 cm panels
    - 8th dan: 3 meters long with 10 cm panels

    .....
    Nothing more I can do to help you. That's all there is. Good luck !
    The French can be even nuttier than I had thought.  When I read this, I wonder how in the world such developed.  Is some judo fashion god in Paris of who we should know, somehow offended by a rash of prior uneven belt blocks?  Do Chanel or Dior provide the French national team coaches' kohaku obi?  jocolor 

    Perhaps we should employ the Golden Mean - that should give us an approximation of how innate taste compares to common usage, a rough measure of What Looks Right.  I would bet that the current usage is very close.   

    NavyRN wrote:Thanks for the input... I know that I may have come across as being a big supporter of the IJF, but in reality, I'm not that big of a fan.  I feel that they are doing more to hurt the art than to help it, but that's for another discussion.  I was just using it as a very loose reference.  Now that there clearly isn't a set standard, I'll relay this info to my buddy, and we can move ahead with production.

    BTW,

    This all came about because I want to have special, customized belts for my two Sensei (Rokudan and Hachidan) as Christmas presents.  Anyway, thanks again for all of the input.

    Cheers,

    Andy
    Beware: no good deed goes unpunished....  
    NBK,
    I never accused you of single handedly bringing the forum down. You sure didn't seem sincere in your approach to help, and way to try and bash the Navy.

    Cheers.
    Jonesy
    Jonesy


    Posts : 1070
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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Re: Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    Post by Jonesy Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:03 am

    Apparently there is now such a thing as a IJF kohaku obi: http://www.judogear.jp/shop/index.php?route=product/category&path=13_41


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    Emanuele2


    Posts : 201
    Join date : 2013-01-21

    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Re: Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

    Post by Emanuele2 Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:15 am

    Behold an IJF approved kohaku obi. https://kusakura.jp/en/product/jrwi-kusakura-white-and-red-belt-ijf

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    Dimensions for the Kohaku obi Empty Re: Dimensions for the Kohaku obi

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