First Dan Grading Competition

So I attended my first dan grading on Saturday at High Wycombe. For those of you who are not from the UK, to get your dan grade in the BJA you have to pass a theory examination, which entails performing a number of techniques in front of an examiner as well as Kata, and win 10 fights against other 1st kyus via ippon.

I lost my first fight but then won my next two which meant I got a line up of 3 people. To my surprise I won all 3 via ippon which means I have passed the competitive part of my dan grading first time out. My coach is arranging for an examiner to visit my club next month so I can complete the theory part as well so it looks like I will be a Shodan by the end of the year. Feels very weird to be this close this quickly as I has assumed it would take me years to pass my competitive dan grading. Anyway I just wanted to share this with you guys.
cheers

JudoStu wrote:So I attended my first dan grading on Saturday at High Wycombe. For those of you who are not from the UK, to get your dan grade in the BJA you have to pass a theory examination, which entails performing a number of techniques in front of an examiner as well as Kata, and win 10 fights against other 1st kyus via ippon.

I lost my first fight but then won my next two which meant I got a line up of 3 people. To my surprise I won all 3 via ippon which means I have passed the competitive part of my dan grading first time out. My coach is arranging for an examiner to visit my club next month so I can complete the theory part as well so it looks like I will be a Shodan by the end of the year. Feels very weird to be this close this quickly as I has assumed it would take me years to pass my competitive dan grading. Anyway I just wanted to share this with you guys.
cheers  

Hi JudoStu and congrats.

Thanks for sharing your story. I do not understand how you can get a line-up after you lost your first fight. Under normal tsukinami-shiai rules you're done when you lose except for if the very last person of the line-up wins his last fight and you are called up again. But even in that case if the one who is called up wins again it is the end of the story as in such case he cannot win more than one point. To win more points he should have won his fights when he was originally called up in the line-up and not in the reserve position at the end.

You also mention "performing a number of techniques in front of an examiner" with the word "examiner" singular. Are you saying that it is just a single person who can judge you rather than a complete jury ?

Great. Thanks for posting this.  Back in the day, 1961, we were graded in a similar way; a kohaku like shiai where we had to defeat at least 6 opponents, pass a verbal theory exam and the complete naga-no kata as tori. Plus many standing and ground techniques.  Guess they figured we could do the uke part okay. I must have fought at least ten people before defeating six.  Was tried but thankful.  Hum, that was a long time ago!!!  

BTW CK , they just stamped the paper and gave it to us right then and there. Can't remember how many big shots were examiners but Kotani sensei was mine and he was hachidan, so maybe they didn't need a bunch of them . The shiai was set for batsugan so the normal kohaku rules were not used, maybe

afja_lm139 wrote:Great. Thanks for posting this.  Back in the day, 1961, we were graded in a similar way; a kohaku like shiai where we had to defeat at least 6 opponents, pass a verbal theory exam and the complete naga-no kata as tori. Plus many standing and ground techniques.  Guess they figured we could do the uke part okay. I must have fought at least ten people before defeating six.  Was tried but thankful.  Hum, that was a long time ago!!!  

As far as I am aware, a Kôhaku shiai (division in a red/white group) does not exist outside of Japan; neither does Kôdansha shiai, but tsukinami shiai and kôten shiai do. Europa is typically tsukinami-shiai based. What you are talking about, the kôhaku shiai is unique, and also has the possibility to get promoted multiple dan-ranks in one day. Kaminaga went up directly from 1st kyû to 3rd dan by defeating a line-up of something like 24 people, and that is not even the record, which is 29. This is not possible at any other form of shiai and also does not exist outside Japan. Typically abroad it's tsukiname shiai, where as you, say, you can maximally defeat a 6-people line-up for batsugun "exquisite instant promotion".

afja_lm139 wrote:BTW CK , they just stamped the paper and gave it to us right then and there. Can't remember how many big shots were examiners but Kotani sensei was mine and he was hachidan, so maybe they didn't need a bunch of them . The shiai was set for batsugan so the normal kohaku rules were not used, maybe

Oh yes, in those days that was standard. All the Japanese, Kotani, Hirano, Michigami, Abe K., but not anymore since the 1970s, individuals are not authorized to issue dan-rank promotions. Even a simple kata-certificate is minimally a jury of three.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

JudoStu wrote:So I attended my first dan grading on Saturday at High Wycombe. For those of you who are not from the UK, to get your dan grade in the BJA you have to pass a theory examination, which entails performing a number of techniques in front of an examiner as well as Kata, and win 10 fights against other 1st kyus via ippon.

I lost my first fight but then won my next two which meant I got a line up of 3 people. To my surprise I won all 3 via ippon which means I have passed the competitive part of my dan grading first time out. My coach is arranging for an examiner to visit my club next month so I can complete the theory part as well so it looks like I will be a Shodan by the end of the year. Feels very weird to be this close this quickly as I has assumed it would take me years to pass my competitive dan grading. Anyway I just wanted to share this with you guys.
cheers  

Hi JudoStu and congrats.

Thanks for sharing your story. I do not understand how you can get a line-up after you lost your first fight. Under normal tsukinami-shiai rules you're done when you lose except for if the very last person of the line-up wins his last fight and you are called up again. But even in that case if the one who is called up wins again it is the end of the story as in such case he cannot win more than one point. To win more points he should have won his fights when he was originally called up in the line-up and not in the reserve position at the end.

You also mention "performing a number of techniques in front of an examiner" with the word "examiner" singular. Are you saying that it is just a single person who can judge you rather than a complete jury ?

Perhaps I didnt explain myself properly. You have to win two fights to get a line up of 3 people. IF you win your first two fights then you go straight to a line up. If you lose 1 of your first two fights they give you another fight, another chance so to speak to win. I did and got my 3 man line up.

Re my comment on examiner, yes it can be a single person.

You need two ippon wins out of three matches to qualify for a line up of three players. You need three ippon wins in the line up to complete your competitive requirements "on the day". Theory up to 3 dan can usually be done by one Senior Examiner, two were needed for beyond that but one is ok now.

Jonesy wrote:You need two ippon wins out of three matches to qualify for a line up of three players. You need three ippon wins in the line up to complete your competitive requirements "on the day". Theory up to 3 dan can usually be done by one Senior Examiner, two were needed for beyond that but one is ok now.

1. So, doing 'complete' line-up in the UK is only 3 people instead of 6 ?

2. That single examiner examines on 'theory' not 'practice', but 'theory' in the UK instead of really being theory is really 'practice' per ... "you have to pass a theory examination, which entails performing a number of techniques in front of an examiner as well as Kata".

Very confusing. So, really what it is, is a competitive eligibility requirement to do a practical technical exam (not theory, although it is apparently referred to as 'theory'). Theory would be to simply answer questions in writing or orally about the principles of judo, history, philosophy, refereeing etc, whereas what seems to be requires is actual demonstrations on the tatami or 'practice', correct ?

Correct. "Theory" in the UK is the practical demonstration of selected individual techniques, combinations, counters and limited kata.

And as promised the video of my line up is on my blog http://stuartjudo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/high-wycombe-dan-grading_17.html
Please be kind with your comments

I think that these are matches typical for 1st kyû tsukinami-shiai, so I do not think that there is much to comment on the actual matches themselves. I think that it was fortunate that your matches evolved rather quickly. All in all your three matches were about the duration of what a single match could take up. This is very important since it requires quite a bit of endurance to do a full-line-up (6 people) with each match at near full duration each time against a fresh partner and no breaks. With just three people in terms of endurance it is a lot less challenging, and even more so if the individual fights are brief. Most of my black-belt students would be able to successfully do a 3-men line up, but I have only had a single student (and she was a world championship and European championship medal winner) who could successfully complete a 6-person line-up. So, keeping matches short is the way to go if you can.

For us, who are not British, the procedure appears very odd, in particular the bowing at the beginning and end with you at one side and three others at the other side. This is something I have never seen in my entire career. In my experiences with tsukinami-shiai, you step on the tatami as partner of the person who won the previous fight (unless that person just completely all competition requirements or was unable to continue because of injury), and if you win the fight, you remain while they call up and send you your next opponents, one after each match won. You typically do not know them beforehand unless you really watch carefully at the start when they call up every name to see if you are all there. So you won't hear any supportive comments from me as to the system or procedures I saw, but that obviously is totally outside of your control and will since you are just adhering to that what is required and has likely been in place for a long time. Personally, I think that line-ups should be full line-ups as they used to be and be open category without any weight-categories just as we used to do them.

I also heard someone yelling "One more, Stu" at the end of match 2 . That shouldn't normally be done. Tsukinami-shiai normally does not allow any form of coaching and is a strictly individual test. Audience (if allowed) should keep their mouths shut or be removed from the hall. Then again, I do not want to appear overly critical since, admittedly, the comment was made in-between two fights rather than during a fight.

If anything, it was the refereeing that I and probably others could start nagging about. I didn't find the refereeing steller. But in all fairness, is the refereeing during tsukinami-shiai in the West ever of a decent level ?  The referee looked to me like she was still stoned from the evening before. The newaza in match 3 was broken off too quickly. According to the clock, the two of you had been on the ground for barely 5 seconds. They should have let the players continue. Newaza is rarely concluded or decisively turned after just 5 seconds. I think particularly considering that these contests are ability tests and not IJF medal contests, extensively showing one's ability during newaza is welcome. If it were me who refereed the contest, the match could well take place the entire time in newaza.

Looking at this some of my own memories came back, both good and bad. I have only good memories of my tsukinami-shiai as a 1st kyû, I have one bad memory of tsukinami-shiai as a 1st dan when I had the only time ever that I fell on my shoulder due to the incompetency of the referee, who knew me very well and framed me after I had once humiliated him when I was still an espoir and he a senior, and I have mostly bad memories of my tsukinami-shiai as a 2nd dan, mostly because although this rank really does not seem to be so exceptional, most people who obtained it in those days were much older and chose a much longer time-in-grade, in which case competition requirements were waived. So, it took me a long time to get from 2nd to 3rd dan due to a lack of opponents. There were several tsukinami-shiai I attended and had to return home because of lack of adversary. Moreover, I had several serious injuries in those days, and my scores were less decisive meaning that several times it ended in hiki-wake, and hiki-wake meant the end of your line-up. This was particularly frustrating since often times, there only was a single opponent.

Congrats with your results. What I couldn't quite figure out from your report now is whether you are now a black belt or not ?  If I understand you well, you completed your competition requirement and you did your practical exam (called "theory" in the UK), so what else is there to do in order to be a black belt ?

Cichorei Kano wrote:I think that these are matches typical for 1st kyû tsukinami-shiai, so I do not think that there is much to comment on the actual matches themselves. I think that it was fortunate that your matches evolved rather quickly. All in all your three matches were abou the duration of what a single match could take up. This is very important since it requires quite a bit of endurance to do a full-line-up (6 people) with each match at near full duration each time against a fresh partner and no breaks. With just three people in terms of endurance it is a lot less challenging, and even more so if the individual fights are brief. Most of my black-belt students would be able to successfully do a 3-men line up, but I have only had a single student (and she was a world championship and european championship medal winner) who could successfully complete a 6-person line-up. So, keeping matches short is the way to go if you can.

For us, who are not British, the procedure appears very odd, in particular the bowing at the beginning and end with you at one side and three others at the other side. This is something I have never seen in my entire career. In my experiences with tsukinami-shiai, you step on the tatami as partner of the person who won the previous fight (unless that person just completely all competition requirements or was unable to continue because of injury), and if you win the fight, you remain while they call up and send you your next opponents, one after each match won. You typically do not know them beforehand unless you really watch carefully at the start when they call up every name to see if you are all there. So you won't hear any supportive comments from me as to the system or procedures I saw, but that obviously is totally outside of your control and will since you are just adhering to that what is required and has likely been in place for a long time. Personally, I think that line-ups should be full line-ups as they used to be and be open category without any weight-categories just as we used to do them.

I also heard someone yelling "One more, Stu" at the end of match 2 . That shouldn't normally be done. Tsukinami-shiai normally does not allow any form of coaching and is a strictly individual test. Audience (if allowed) should keep their mouths shut or be removed from the hall.

If anything, it was the refereeing that I and probably others could start nagging about. I didn't find the refereeing steller. But in all fairness, is the refereeing during tsukinami-shiai in the West ever of a decent level ?  The referee looked to me like she was still stoned from the evening before. The newaza in match 3 was broken off to quickly. According to the clock, the two of you had been on the ground for barely 5 seconds. They should have let the players continue. Newaza is rarely concluded or decisively turned after just 5 seconds.

Looking at this some of my own memories came back, both good and bad. I have only good memories of my tsukinami-shiai as a 1st kyû, I have one bad memory of tsukinami-shiai as a 1st dan when I had the only time ever that I fell on my shoulder due to the incompetency of the referee, who knew me very well and framed me after I had once humiliated him when I was still an espoir and he a senior, and I have mostly bad memories of my tsukinami-shiai as a 2nd dan, mostly because although this rank really does not seem to be so exceptional, most people who obtained it in those days were much older and chose a much longer time-in-grade, in which case competition requirements were waived. So, it took me a long time to get from 2nd to 3rd dan due to a lack of opponents. There were several tsukinami-shiai I attended and had to return home because of lack of adversary. Moreover, I had several serious injuries in those days, and my scores were less decisive meaning that several times it ended in hiki-wake, and hiki-wake meant the end of your line-up. This was particularly frustrating since often times, there only was a single opponent.

Congrats with your results. What I couldn't quite figure out from your report now is whether you are now a black belt or not ?  If I understand you well, you completed your competition requirement and you did your practical exam (called "theory" in the UK), so what else is there to do in order to be a black belt ?

I haven't as yet completed the theory part of my dan grading which include

1. Single Techniques
a. Tachiwaza
b. Newaza
2. Renzokuwaza (Nagewaza)
Combination techniques in which the second technique is a continuation of
the first in the same or similar direction.
3. Renrakuwaza (Nagewaza)
Combination techniques in which the second technique uses the reaction of
the opponent to throw in a completely different direction.
4. Kaeshiwaza (Nagewaza) Counter techniques.
5. Renrakuwaza, Kaeshiwaza, Nigewaza (Newaza)
Combination and counter techniques in newaza and techniques following
escapes from osaekomiwaza.
6. Nage-No-Kata/Katame-No-Kata

With regards to the ref, I believe she was present at the 2012 Olympics.
And (I know I shouldn't start a sentence with and) generally speaking there was no coaching whatsoever, one coach was told to be quiet or leave, but the person filming my line up got a little excited.

JudoStu wrote:
I haven't as yet completed the theory part of my dan grading which include

1. Single Techniques
a. Tachiwaza
b. Newaza
2. Renzokuwaza (Nagewaza)
Combination techniques in which the second technique is a continuation of
the first in the same or similar direction.
3. Renrakuwaza (Nagewaza)
Combination techniques in which the second technique uses the reaction of
the opponent to throw in a completely different direction.
4. Kaeshiwaza (Nagewaza) Counter techniques.
5. Renrakuwaza, Kaeshiwaza, Nigewaza (Newaza)
Combination and counter techniques in newaza and techniques following
escapes from osaekomiwaza.
6. Nage-No-Kata/Katame-No-Kata

With regards to the ref, I believe she was present at the 2012 Olympics.
And (I know I shouldn't start a sentence with and) generally speaking there was no coaching whatsoever, one coach was told to be quiet or leave, but the person filming my line up got a little excited.

I did not want to exaggerate in terms of my remark regarding the coaching, particularly since it was just one comment and it was done in-between two fights rather than during the fight. My remark was more directed as a means of providing additional explanations in particular to readers who are novices or those from a system where they don't even have shiai requirements.

One more question though because this neither is clear to me, and I suppose others. Since there will be only one examiner for your practical part (called "theory" in the UK) who determines who that sole examiner is going to be ? I seem to understand that people have examiner authority for certain areas of the UK, but does that mean that within each area everyone has the same examiner, or ... (and I hope that this is not the case) ... can the examinee himself choose or determine who his examiner is going to be ?

Well-done, Stu.  I find it interesting that you are required to beat the other people. Here in Canada we only have what you would call "theory", as well as an actual written theory exam.  In the kendo world we always have to play other people for the exam. You don't necessarily have to win, in fact the matches aren't judged - you just have to demonstrate the correct kendo for the dan and the ability to score on the other guy, who is always a candidate for the same rank. "Correct kendo for the dan" is the tough one, because you can score all day but if you don't show the things the judges are looking for, you still won't pass.

Were your opponents candidates also, or just volunteers?

Neil G wrote:Well-done, Stu.  I find it interesting that you are required to beat the other people. Here in Canada we only have what you would call "theory", as well as an actual written theory exam.  In the kendo world we always have to play other people for the exam. You don't necessarily have to win, in fact the matches aren't judged - you just have to demonstrate the correct kendo for the dan and the ability to score on the other guy, who is always a candidate for the same rank.  "Correct kendo for the dan" is the tough one, because you can score all day but if you don't show the things the judges are looking for, you still won't pass.

Were your opponents candidates also, or just volunteers?

My opponents were in the same boat as me, i.e. fighting for their dan grade. When I got to the line up, if any of them had beaten me they would have gotten 10 points.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

JudoStu wrote:
I haven't as yet completed the theory part of my dan grading which include

1. Single Techniques
a. Tachiwaza
b. Newaza
2. Renzokuwaza (Nagewaza)
Combination techniques in which the second technique is a continuation of
the first in the same or similar direction.
3. Renrakuwaza (Nagewaza)
Combination techniques in which the second technique uses the reaction of
the opponent to throw in a completely different direction.
4. Kaeshiwaza (Nagewaza) Counter techniques.
5. Renrakuwaza, Kaeshiwaza, Nigewaza (Newaza)
Combination and counter techniques in newaza and techniques following
escapes from osaekomiwaza.
6. Nage-No-Kata/Katame-No-Kata

With regards to the ref, I believe she was present at the 2012 Olympics.
And (I know I shouldn't start a sentence with and) generally speaking there was no coaching whatsoever, one coach was told to be quiet or leave, but the person filming my line up got a little excited.

I did not want to exaggerate in terms of my remark regarding the coaching, particularly since it was just one comment and it was done in-between two fights rather than during the fight. My remark was more directed as a means of providing additional explanations in particular to readers who are novices or those from a system where they don't even have shiai requirements.

One more question though because this neither is clear to me, and I suppose others. Since there will be only one examiner for your practical part (called "theory" in the UK) who determines who that sole examiner is going to be ?  I seem to understand that people have examiner authority for certain areas of the UK, but does that mean that within each area everyone has the same examiner, or ...  (and I hope that this is not the case) ... can the examinee himself choose or determine who his examiner is going to be ?

I'm not entirely sure. I have the option to attend a theory course at certain places in the UK, for instance High Wycombe and they will have examiners present. But these examiners can also come to your club or you can visit them in their own club and do your theory there. I know of two examiners who are in close proximity to my own club, so my coach will arrange for me to either visit them or have them visit me.

Congratulations, Stu! Keep training...

JudoStu wrote:My opponents were in the same boat as me, i.e. fighting for their dan grade. When I got to the line up, if any of them had beaten me they would have gotten 10 points.

Is any effort made to match you up to people of similar weight? Locally we never have more than 2 or 3 people trying shodan at any given grading, so this would be tough to organize.

Neil G wrote:

JudoStu wrote:My opponents were in the same boat as me, i.e. fighting for their dan grade. When I got to the line up, if any of them had beaten me they would have gotten 10 points.

Is any effort made to match you up to people of similar weight?  Locally we never have more than 2 or 3 people trying shodan at any given grading, so this would be tough to organize.

There were 20 guys who turned up on the day so they split us in to light, middle and heavy weights. I weighed in at 89kg and most of my opponents were lighter than me apart from one guy in my line up who was 102kg. There was even a 78kg guy who fought and beat a guy who weighed 113kg

JudoStu wrote:
There were 20 guys who turned up on the day so they split us in to light, middle and heavy weights. I weighed in at 89kg and most of my opponents were lighter than me apart from one guy in my line up who was 102kg. There was even a 78kg guy who fought and beat a guy who weighed 113kg

So assuming it was equal divisions, there are 6 or 7 guys in each group. If I understand the rules right, you need to beat 5 out of 6 guys to pass. So it doesn't matter if all the guys in your group are actually at shodan level, only a couple of them can pass. Is that right or am I missing something?

Neil G wrote:

JudoStu wrote:
There were 20 guys who turned up on the day so they split us in to light, middle and heavy weights. I weighed in at 89kg and most of my opponents were lighter than me apart from one guy in my line up who was 102kg. There was even a 78kg guy who fought and beat a guy who weighed 113kg

So assuming it was equal divisions, there are 6 or 7 guys in each group.  If I understand the rules right, you need to beat 5 out of 6 guys to pass.  So it doesn't matter if all the guys in your group are actually at shodan level, only a couple of them can pass.  Is that right or am I missing something?

See below


BRITISH JUDO ASSOCIATION
DAN GRADE PROMOTION SYLLABUS
PAGE 6 OF 14
A candidate who is entitled to a third individual contest should not be given their third contest in another candidate’s line
up.
To be successful in their line up a candidate must win all three contests by Ippon.
A candidate who is male and 35 years or over or female and 30 years or over must win all three contests and accrue a
minimum of twenty seven points.
At a promotion examination, where all male candidates are 35 years or over, the under 35 years rules will apply.
At a promotion examination, where all female candidates are 30 years or over the under 30 year’s rules will apply.
A candidate who fails to complete their line up, in exceptional circumstances may be used in another candidate’s line up,
e.g. injuries to candidates or numerous line ups and low number of candidates.
The tables below are for guidance:

Individual Contests Men under 35 years/Men 35 years or over where there are no under 35’s present. Women under 30
years/Women 30 years or over where there are no under 30’s present.

Table 1: Individual Contest Results

Contest 1 Contest 2 Contest 3
Ippon + Ippon + — = Line Up
Ippon + No Ippon + Ippon = Line Up
No Ippon + Ippon + Ippon = Line Up

Line-up Contest Results
Ippon + Ippon + Ippon = Line-up Successfully Completed

Went and looked at the rules and still not entirely clear. Minimum of 6 guys required according to the rules. I assume you play either 2 or 3 of the other candidates in the first round. If my combinations are right, either 3 or 4 guys get to the lineup. The lineup is supposed to be people you haven't played yet but if you lost a match one of them will have to be a repeat. Is it the guy you lost to in the 1st round?

Anyone who wins 2 out of 3 bouts in the preliminary round move onto a line up. Anyone who fails to reach a line up for themselves is then placed into the "line up" for the people who have won 2 out of 3 pre lim bouts.
If the person taking the line up loses at any time the line up stops immediately. Ten points are won for any person who is part of the line if they win by ippon. So not a total loss is they do not actually win the right to take a line.

That all sounded so much better in my head

tafftaz wrote:Anyone who wins 2 out of 3 bouts in the preliminary round move onto a line up. Anyone who fails to reach a line up for themselves is then placed into the "line up" for the people who have won 2 out of 3 pre lim bouts.
If the person taking the line up loses at any time the line up stops immediately. Ten points are won for any person who is part of the line if they win by ippon. So not a total loss is they do not actually win the right to take a line.

That all sounded so much better in my head

Yes it's a lot easier to explain in person.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:Congratulations, Stu! Keep training...

+1

Congratulations by the way