Experiences with the case of emergency

Broken bottles, drinking glasses, and eating utensils are less of a problem these days thanks to plastic. However, syringes can be a problem, especially used ones!

Judo Dad wrote:Broken bottles, drinking glasses, and eating utensils are less of a problem these days thanks to plastic. However, syringes can be a problem, especially used ones!

JUDODAD! I am shocked to learn you would use such things!

Mike:oops:

Hi Doug;

What more can you tell us about those two first encounters, Tom? What
was the build up before the attack? What words were exchanged, if any?

It was different from my experiences of today.
For instance there were no "rituals" before.
No "special words" or such things. No "discussions" and no threats.
I came along, the guys saw me and it happened.
Only aggression and immediately attacks.

What noise happened during the fight?

As far as I remember there were no noise.
I remember a great silence.

What hits, to where, were most
effective?

Hooks, palms and elbows, then knees and then throws like O-Soto-Gari.

What caused the fight to finish?

One of this guys layed on the ground and did not move.
The other one chopped and his dudes too.
Was not so unusual.

How did you feel afterwards
(immediately, later that day, a couple of days later)

There were dudes after brawls trying to make themselves important.
Told everybody how hard boiled they would be.
And indeed, some of them were.

Others did not need such sayings.
Everybody knew that they were dangerous like a blade.

And me ...
I felt bad.
Full with fear, horror, terror.
Yes, I got very fast a "reputation", and that was needful.
But to be honest ... I believe that everybody is after such a brawl full with fear and horror.
Everybody.
But it is so ... if you know all your life long what violence is, if you had to leran as a child what real terror is, you get used to it.
And so your fear becomes smaller and smaller and sometime it has disappeared.
Then you get what you did want as a child - you are a stone.
And nobody can hurt a stone.
Nobody.

It is a hard way to leave that.
It is a hard way no longer to be a stone, believe me.

On the other hand it is the best you can do in case of emergency, if you are seriousely attacked.
Become a stone.
Act cold like a stone an do what must be done.

And for me this is a piece of the educational process in judo too.
Not sure if anybody understands me.

For me judo is the best martial art in the world.
Because judo did teach me how to fight.
And ... judo did teach me NOT to follow the road of violence, not to follow the road of terror and fear, not to follow the road leading to the place where you become a stone for rest of your life.

I did learn this:
It is impossible to get the "DO" without the "Jutsu".
As Diane Skoss wrote - you have to go through "jutsu" to come to the "do".
And that is a hard an lonesome way, indeed.
Or it was for me.

Thank you for your openess and honesty, Tom.

Your experiences are very helpful.

When you were fighting, were you thinking or just 'doing'? How did you throw your o soto gari - round the neck, forearm across throat, body grab? What physiological responses did you have immediately after the fight - shaking, vomiting, huge sense of relief, tiredness, feeling of invincibility?

Interesting that your fights were silent. Over 60% of combatants report sensory distortion during sympathetic system arousal of over 175 beats per minute (heart rate). That included either tunnel vision or heightened vision or auditory dampening or acute hearing or slow motion or fast motion or a combination of these things. Usually sight and sound are inversely affected; i.e. heightened vision but dampened hearing (Siddle & Grossman).

Hi Doug,

When you were fighting, were you thinking or just 'doing'?

In my experiences there never was time for "thinking".
All was just "doing".
Like an animal.

How did you throw your o soto gari - round the neck, forearm across throat, body grab?

Hmmmm ...
How shall I explain ...
Ok, when I was a teen we practised O-Soto-Gari again and again without gi.
As I described ... on a meadow, or elsewhere.
So we used our arms like grapplers/wrestlers do, ok?
No grip on the clothes necessary.
Palms are used for Kuzushi.
Very simple, extremely effective.
I found this years later when I became the student of my second teacher and he showed me the O-Soto-Gari like Tokio Hirano did.
(To be honest: the Hirano-O-Soto-Gari was so much better ...!)

What physiological responses did you have immediately after the fight -
shaking, vomiting, huge sense of relief, tiredness, feeling of
invincibility?

That was depending on the situation.
As I wrote ... after a short time of daily brawling you become a stone.
Mentally and physically.
If this has happened you never again will show such physiological responses.

Interesting that your fights were silent. Over 60% of combatants report
sensory distortion during sympathetic system arousal of over 175 beats
per minute (heart rate).

Maybe a matter of habituation.
I was trusted very much by almost every form of violence.
Yes, my heartbeat was higher but not that way.
I was ... cold.
Icecold.
Know you what? Maybe because to me everything completely made no difference.
There were no future.
So you can fight without any hesitation.
There is nothing you can lose.

That included either tunnel vision or heightened vision or auditory
dampening or acute hearing or slow motion or fast motion or a
combination of these things.

Slow motion did happen to me.
Seldom.

I am sorry, but most of these things did not happen to me in fighting.
I think I would have felt very ... uncomfortable if those things had happened.
In my fights all things were clear like glass.
Sharp.
Sharper.
Blade.
Think, I could hear a sheet from the tree have fallen.
In silence.
I never heard a deeper silence later.
Such a cold deep silence.

Excellent feedback, thanks, Tom. Your responses resulting from your combat conditioning (both in the dojo and on the street) are consistent with the responses of other combat veterans. Very interesting.

Hi Doug,
if you have any questions feel free to ask.


I only described few experiences I made early in my life.
There were much more.
Even when I was an adult in the GDR.

Some little questions to bring that to an end ...
Questions nobody want to hear, I am sure.
Nevertheless:

Why so many sport judoka are not interested in judo as martial art?
Why do they so often refuse that judo is a very effective system for self defence?

I am afraid it's the lack of experience ... in both: real violence in real life ... and lack of experience with judo beside the sport idea.
Ok, it's not my job to change the mind of this people.
But I wonder how these guys can be so self-righteous to say:
"Hey, go ahead with your experiences! We are not interested in! And by the way - the idea to use judo as self defence shows clearly your lack of competence in judo!"
Hmmm ...
To be able to do something 99% of all sport judoka can't do shows a lack of competence ...?


Allright ...
There is a guy able to use judo as very effective system of self defence and so he has a knowledge 99% of sport judo guys do not have.
Has experiences over decades.
He is ready to share.
And everything what occurs to those guys is to be said: "Leave! We do not want your knowledge because it disturbs our idea of what judo has to be in OUR opinion!"
Hmmm ...
Sounds a bit strange in my point of view, but hey - who am I to disturb such people?
Who am I to disturb these people in her certainty that they know for a long time everything what is to know it in judo?



It's interesting, by the way ...
Guys from Sambo, BJJ, Submission Wrestling, Grappling, Systema and so on are much more open minded than most sport judoka are.
They share.
They want to learn and they share their own knowledge ...
Thea are hungry.

What a pity.
Normaly the sport judoka refuse everything they don't now.
More, they simply deny that all these things they don't know and they are unable to do on an acceptable level, are judo.

What an attitude ...

And what a pity.
How does this haughty manner agree on itself with the educational system of Kano?
Let's see ...
The first (lower) level of judo is, defined by Kano, the ability of "defence against attack".
It seems that there are big problems already on this level.
Above all, because many sport judoka have no idea of what is a real attack.
Allright ... the basic is weak.
What about the "middle level" - Kano called it "cultivation of body and mind" ...?
Seems to be misunderstood.
I can't find "cultivation" in refusing - for instance - atemi waza.
Or in refusing judo as a highly effective system of self defence.

"Har har I never heard about that and I never saw it in our dojo, so it does not exist! And even if it does exist it can't be judo! Because I say so! And I am on the mat for 30 years!"

I thought a judo forum would be a place to share knowledge.
To learn something ...
My failure.

Again ... the guys from Sambo, BJJ, Systema and similar systems are so open minded I never found any sport judoka in any forum. And yes, it is much more useful to discuss with this people.

Judo really is today in a shitty situation.
The sambo guys and the grappling guys are good in throws now.
In groundwork the BJJ guys much much better than sport judo guys are.
And judo has punches and kicks but many sport judoka won't hear that and so they simply deny.
So what is it you can find in judo today?
Kata?
What for?
Its not needed to earn medals in competition.
Kata contains the real principles of "fighting in earnest" but who cares?
Today kata are performed as dances without any use and any real sense.
So by which does judo become unique?
Today ...? By nothing.
You can use nearly every sport as an "educational system".
And there are a lot of "fighting sports" much more interesting than the sport judo of today.

I am sure, nobody wants to hear that.
Not even here in this forum.

Who is honestly sees that more and more things from the judo disappear which belonged to it originally.
If THIS is the "permanent advancement of the modern judo" ...
Oh Lord.

So all I can do is to wish all of you to enjoy sport judo furthermore.
I'm off.
I can't waste my time trying to share unwelcome knowledge here.

Tom Herold

tom herold wrote:

So all I can do is to wish all of you to enjoy sport judo furthermore.
I'm off.
I can't waste my time trying to share unwelcome knowledge here.

Tom Herold

Hi Tom,
I understand your frustration. Trying to communicate in English when its not your mother tongue is just one hurdle you have had to endure here. I think some forums appear to appeal to some people while other posters seem to do better on other forums.
I deeply respect your wise decision to retire from this forum. I hope you have not found things here too bad? I also feel certain you will find a forum more in line with your experience where your input will be greatly appreciated and valued.
Thanks for giving us a trial here I wish you the very best for the future.
Mike

tom herold wrote:
I'm off.
I can't waste my time trying to share unwelcome knowledge here.

Tom Herold

Good luck mate, there are plenty of Martial Arts Forums that focus on the things you like to discuss

tom herold wrote:

Judo really is today in a shitty situation.
The sambo guys and the grappling guys are good in throws now.
In groundwork the BJJ guys much much better than sport judo guys are.

Tom Herold

I, too, have been into and out of judo(mostly out of) for 30 years(1982) and I'm surprised that you would consider judo in a shitty situation right now, coming from a combat perspective. I dont think judo has ever been given near the respect as a combat sport as it is now and I see it growing every year. Huge compared.

Sambo and bjj guys now right? Well, havent we dealt with similar news before in the many, many years of vs wrestlers? Havent we already fought many, many other judoka that can beat us in tachiwaza and/or newaza? GNP, gloveless, done and done. <NOTHING outside of experience is going to teach you that.

Hands down judo is the best martial art but thee coolest thing about judo, that nothing else comes close to, is that a judoka can look very cool in a fight without hurting anyone. People(spectators) will remember wicked throws forever. Forever. And they look wicked, but they're really not because we learn heavy how to throw without hurting someone. If you watch scrappers fight, (even ex-rugby fellas,) comparatively, they seemingly bet their whole future that buddy wont be hurt. We have a decent amount of control over this compared.

I have to say it's rather an honour to read a thread and have personally trained with two of the writers.

On a personal note the more I study Judo (as a Senior Ju Jitsuka) the more I realise that Judo is Ju Jitsu. In fact when studying some of the finer points of kata within Judo such as Ju No Kata - it just screams self-defence/martial art.

So Tom, I agree with you 100% that Judo is a martial art and after being on the receiving end of one of your headbutts, it's an effective form of self-defence when taught with all it's principles.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

SimonNZ wrote:I have to say it's rather an honour to read a thread and have personally trained with two of the writers.

On a personal note the more I study Judo (as a Senior Ju Jitsuka) the more I realise that Judo is Ju Jitsu. In fact when studying some of the finer points of kata within Judo such as Ju No Kata - it just screams self-defence/martial art.

So Tom, I agree with you 100% that Judo is a martial art and after being on the receiving end of one of your headbutts, it's an effective form of self-defence when taught with all it's principles.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Hi SimonNZ,

May I ask you to write a little more about your experiences with ju no kata and how you arrive at the conclusion you express in your post. I look forward to you reply and any debate that follows.

Kindest regards,

Mike

Hello Tom Harrold,
I only discovered this thread late last night. I have spent a good part of today reading and digesting it.
I would like to congratulate you for your earnest attempt to raise awareness Jigoro Kano's true intentions for Judo. Further I would like to express my admiration for your attempt to show Kodokan Judo as the fighting system it was intended to be. A complete fighting system.
It is my life experience that Kodokan Judo contains all that is neccessary to be able to protect oneself. I believe it to be a first rate self protection, with the proviso that it must be understood and practised as such. Mental training is critical.

I do not like the term "self defence". Self deffence is a Go no sen, or worse concept.If a person is responding to an attack it is mostly already too late.

At the very least "sen" or prefferably "sensen no sen" is the needed response for self protection. Self protection is the expression and concept I prefer. This concept was ably advanced by Donn Draeger.
I find it very interesting that you say than through Jitsu you you have found "DO".
that is no less than the very education that Kano Shihan intended for us all. If any person on this forum doubts that then read or re read Mind over Muscle

The main reason that Vanilla Judo is now widely practiced is the defeat of Japan by nuclear weapons, following the defence of Iwo Jima( by Judoka) against overwhelming numbers and technology and the subsequent banning of martial arts in Japan.
Judo was later allowed to resume by dissavowing the martial aspect. Even though many teachers were former DNBK they were under severe constraints to teach a very modified Judo. ( And nationally embarssed by their defeat in what they saw as a Holy War) So already they were notteaching the Judo of Jigoro Kano.
Karate was an Okinawan art and allowed to continue.
Jigoro Kano trained under Gitchen Funekoshi and introduced him and Karate into the Kodokan. Many Judoka cross trained their atewaza and karate. With the banning of Judo and latter the severe restrictions on both waza and philosophy, it was just a simple matter for Judoka to become Karateka and continue their atemi. To the loss for Judo.
Because of the war=time ties between Germany and japan several lines of a more complete Judo and the martial aspect have come down through Germany, where martial arts were much less restricted than in Japan.
I would also like to refere to the blog of Joseverson on JF where he states that Jitsu can exist without Do but Do cannot exist without Jitsu. In other words the martial art is an implicit part of Do the way. Do of course is thousands of years old, having exactly the same meaning as the Chinese "Tao". That is exactly how it is understood in Japan "the Tao"
I find it very dissapointing That Tom is being farewelled to Coventry when he should be being milked for every drop of his experience and waza.
regards aiyotsu

Hi Mike
In brief response to your question with regards to the ju jitsu/martial aspect of Ju no kata; application and controlling of distance between you and an attacker, atemi, grip fighting, kuzushi, posture (centre line theory), regaining of posture and counter attack, mental focus.
Cheers
SImon

I am just reading this thread for the first time.

I appreciate the material gathered by Mr. Herold - and recognize some of it as material I translated for the old forum, I believe. And it makes a compelling amount of information for the general outline of his case as judo as a full

I don't really understand why Mr. Herold simply doesn't post his material - several people have voiced interest - or is he saying that he'll send it via PM? I don't see that anyone is giving him a hard time - but with only 300 members or so on the forum the number interested in judo as a serious martial art are probably going to be pretty small.　　

I would be interested in hearing more about the specific training.

NBK

I note that my last post appears to have been remoned.
It was specifically addressing the OP's request for experiences with cases of emergency. As such it was the ONLY reply on topic
aiyotsu

Tom,

Can you post some video of this style of randori for us to see? Sorry, if this has been asked before and I skipped over it.

Thanks.

There is a judoka named Daniel "Taze" Wooley, who was an American imprisoned in a Mexican jail for four years. He is a black belt in judo and has kickboxing experience. His judo was essential for winning prison fights and dominating the social hiearchy. Another American who was jailed around the same time wrote a book about life in Tijuana jail and several chapters are about fighting in prison. Prison is  one of the worst places to have fight, and judo proved to be a highly effective self defense skill in the hands of Daniel.

The book is available from Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Tales-Tijuana-Jails-Sam-Warren/dp/0945949162/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1423322075&sr=8-2&keywords=tales+from+tijuana

idealab wrote:There is a judoka named Daniel "Taze" Wooley, who was an American imprisoned in a Mexican jail for four years. He is a black belt in judo and has kickboxing experience. His judo was essential for winning prison fights and dominating the social hiearchy. Another American who was jailed around the same time wrote a book about life in Tijuana jail and several chapters are about fighting in prison. Prison is  one of the worst places to have fight, and judo proved to be a highly effective self defense skill in the hands of Daniel.

The book is available from Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Tales-Tijuana-Jails-Sam-Warren/dp/0945949162/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1423322075&sr=8-2&keywords=tales+from+tijuana

LOL ... as they say. Please google "Daniel Taze" and see what you come up with. Then report back here.

All I can say is, if he shows up at your dojo, call the cops.

That is irrelevant to the topic of "effectiveness". Google "Masato Uchishiba" and see what you come up with. Regardless what you come up with, it does not deny the effectiveness of their judo. In Daniel Taze's case, regardless what he may be accused, the point is that his judo self-defense skill (along with cunning) is proven to work in that Mexican prison. Whatever wrong they may have done, that is a separate topic.

idealab wrote:That is irrelevant to the topic of "effectiveness". Google "Masato Uchishiba" and see what you come up with. Regardless what you come up with, it does not deny the effectiveness of their judo. In Daniel Taze's case, regardless what he may be accused, the point is that his judo self-defense skill (along with cunning) is proven to work in that Mexican prison. Whatever wrong they may have done, that is a separate topic.

If you knew me, you would know that I have a hard time finding fault with any judoka, that I can look past any number of faults. Further, I concede your point ... if there was a remote possibility that it was true.

Yeah, forget thief, rapist, abuser of old people, scammer, cheater, embezzler, ... not accused, BTW, but convicted ... and that this name is an alias. Sure, many a fine judo technicians have been those.

But in this case we are talking about a psychopath. A pathological liar. Why would you assume any of this is true; more than that why would you lend financial support or credibility by purchasing the product?

Another person wrote the book, the judoka's story is part of it, as Daniel was the "leader" of the American population in prison. I don't see what is the problem for those people who want a real life story of judo is used in this setting to read the book. From what I understood, Daniel helped to get many Americans out of bad situations in there. There are books about people who have done far worse things in life, like Al Capone. The book author and the characters in the story are two different things.

idealab wrote:Another person wrote the book, the judoka's story is part of it, as Daniel was the "leader" of the American population in prison. I don't see what is the problem for those people who want a real life story of judo is used in this setting to read the book. From what I understood, Daniel helped to get many Americans out of bad situations in there. There are books about people who have done far worse things in life, like Al Capone. The book author and the characters in the story are two different things.

Would it surprise you to know that I have read the book?  Or at least the passages referring to your friend Daniel?  It used to be in the public ... Google books or something like that.  Sure, this guy always makes himself the hero.  The book reads just like one of his made-up stories ... like how he was the brother of Jim Wooley ... that's the first one I heard him spin.  They get wilder after that.

Do you believe everything you read?  Even if the things in the book actually occurred ... and I think they are highly suspect ... assigning "judo" to the situation is not appropriate.

I am trying to tell you that I know this guy well enough to know he knows very little of Judo (with a capital J), that he is Dangerous (with a capital D), and that if one wants to find someone to exemplify Judo in "an emergency" ... or even just "judo waza" in such a case ... then one would be much better served to look somewhere else.   It is worth noting he never seemed in judo to fight anyone stronger or more skilled than himself, becoming suddenly ill before a national tournament, forging a weigh-in card to fight in a lighter division ... for example.  He has, besides, assigned to himself proficiency in kickboxing, boxing, BJJ, MMA ... in short he seems to like hurting weaker people and glorifying those "accomplishments" ... where possible to his own financial benefit.

So if you have become enamored of this guy, if he is in fact doing judo or anything else in your club or another club you know ... seriously ... call the cops.  He is not supposed to be there.  You note that others have done things far worse ... well let's see ... I don't think this guy is done.

Whatever he does, outside the narrow context of effective self-defense, is interesting but not relevant. What about Masato Uchishiba? He was convicted of rape. That is a criminal act, but it does not change the fact he is a strong judoka with very effective judo He has no problem winning the highest tournaments in judo. I have little doubt he would be more than handle any attackers in prison.

I condemn these judoka's wrongdoings that mar judo's reputation, but it's good to know people who are in these hostile environment can rely on judo. It is very disturbing that highly skilled judokas get involved in crimes, as it is completely contrary to the philosophy of judo. But that is the broad scope ("Judo" with a capital "J") of the martial art. Here is a much narrowed context.

The point is this: regardless of the character of a judoka, in the narrow context of whether judo is effective in emergency self-defense, it is. Many people want to know if there are actual real life examples, there are. It's not about the judoka involved, but about applied judo skills. Of course, they are not positive role models for promoting judo.