Experiences with the case of emergency

Oh, I did forget one thing ...
Seems to me that I do feel here a general dislike against the view that judo was conceived as a very effective fighting system and as a martial art and should be used so until today.
Am I wrong or does this aversion really exist?

Please I do not want to be impolite.
I only tell you what I do feel, ok?

If there is such an aversion, it is not possible to discuss judo as a martial art.

Gentlemen, please ...
Have a look where we are now in this thread.
I tried to share my experiences with using judo against real violence.
And now we discuss "bushido" and such things ...


Is it possible to accept that my way, coming from my teacher's teacher, is a way of judo as a martial art?
Is it possible then to discuss training methods of old times, focused on abilities of real fighting and experiences with it?

Is it generally welcome to discuss here real violence and the contact with it?
Unfortunately, somebody has itself up to now hardly to violence, to its forms of expression and the kind to handle with this violence expressed.
I find this a pity, because I ask myself for what there is this subforum "Self Defence".


If consensus seems to insist that judo is not suitable to the self-defence and was not intended for it also, then this subforum is superfluous as this thread, isn't it?

Tom, you are absolutely right. Eastern bushido, Western chivalry ... they are all just modern interpretations of very scant historical writings.

I value history to respect those who have gone before me and to understand what I do. In the middle of randori, am I intersted in history? No way! I'm trying to hit my opponent, trying to get to a safe place so I won't get damaged, trying to control my opponent and trying to finish the fight on my terms. It's after randori that I think about whether I have enough 'feel', enough speed, sharp enough techniques and enough fight experience. It's all very here-and-now stuff and very survival-oriented. It is very 'jutsu'.

Once I get home, though, I think about how to better help my students and how I can become a better teacher, parent and human being. I read books on combat and chivalry and etiquette, think about them, and try and use their messages to make myself a better person. That's very 'do'.

There are now many themes in this thread I am fining it difficult to know how to respond.

I think the initial gist of the thread concerns the use of judo as a self defence and its effectiveness?

I have suggested that judo was not founded as a manner of SD, numerous ryu already existed for that I also strongly suggest that if a true form of SD is required than judo would certainly not be in my top ten as a choice.

Do I accept a person armed with a decent level of judo is better capable in a fight than a person with zero fighting skills? Perhaps though even that is not black and white far from it.

It is not the art or system of fighting that prevails in a street encounter its the person with the 'given' character traits who will win. A youngster who is born of the street, educated in the ways of the street and survives the street growing into his or her young adult life that will often be better equipped in a street brawl than any of the black belts from any of the arts we practice.

Is there an element of SD in judo, sure. Just be careful the confidence one learns from taking gold at several championships doesn't turn ones head into a sense of false invincibility. Regardless of knowledge, courage, skill, or any other human attribute there is ALWAYS some one some where who can and will have the ability to remove our clocks.


Oh, let us not forget that some of the greatest professional highly organised and armed armies ever known to man have been defeated by gorilla warfare. In other words one side 'playing' by one set of rules while the other fights a war on their terms not yours Exactly the same principle applies to the individual one to one as a armies fighting..


Mike

DougNZ wrote:

I value history to respect those who have gone before me and to understand what I do. In the middle of randori, am I intersted in history? No way! I'm trying to hit my opponent, trying to get to a safe place so I won't get damaged, trying to control my opponent and trying to finish the fight on my terms. It's after randori that I think about whether I have enough 'feel', enough speed, sharp enough techniques and enough fight experience. It's all very here-and-now stuff and very survival-oriented. It is very 'jutsu'.

.

Hi DougNZ,

Yes and maybe no? Of course any person entering a shiai thinking about history will soon be getting changed.

Of course we enter a shiai to fight, that is the point of such an occasion. I am suggesting in terms of judo its as much, if not more, about the mindset we employ when fighting that makes the difference between what you refer to as a "Jutsu" and I refer to as a 'Do'. I have never fought with the intent of losing I have always fought with the eye of the tiger attitude BUT I have ALWAYS fought within a specific given set of rules and fought within a code of conduct that befits what I was taught and what I represented. I have NEVER harmed a judoka in shiai yet have well over 100 gongs to my championship days. I was taught from day one to win and lose well. INTENT Doug, ones mind set. That is what seperates budoka from other forms of fighting activities. There are things in shiai we simply do not do. To give into a desire to use 'dirty' judo removes the value of the win. To truly build a character I think there has to be a code of fighting that embraces simple manners and etiquette for without such a set of codes we are fighting what and who? I wold never go the 'full Monty' and break a partners arm in an arm lock to win a shiai. I think if my partner is so foolish not to submit that says more about his utter stupidity than my attitude of respecting his stupidity and preserving my own lineage of honour. Break a fools arm to hear the ref shout ippon? That is judo not a jutsu.

Is the glory of Yamashitas win while injured not made even greater by the spirit he showed by continuing?

One can teach a monkey tricks, it takes a human mind to understand respect and compassion for our partners in shiai, especially in shiai.

Kind regards,

Mike

I think we are at cross-purposes, Hanon. Please re-read paras 3 & 4 of post 49.

I fight with jutsu and I try to live with do.

There is etiquette, discipline and compassion in jutsu, at least as I have been taught it and teach it. There has to be, to stay out of gaol. I train and practice to fight but I do so with respect for my training partners and the lives they lead. Like you, from my dojo to international competition, I have not damaged an opponent.

This discussion get more and more far from what I tried to discuss.

I tried to show that sport judo is not good for SD, and I tried to explain that judo is much more than sport.
Of course a gold medal winner of a sportjudo competition is not an expert in fighting in real.
My point was to discuss how to practise judo in the old ways as martial art.

It seems that we talk here all over different things.
This is really bitter.
I have the impression that some cannot fancy at all what means real, unpredictable breaking, immoderate violence.

However, it surprises me over and over again that so many judoka do not want to talk about violence nor judo as martial art.
Real violence does exist and does not disappear if one hushes up them or road-discussed.

It surprises me that so into a lot of dan holders talk themselves, they could sit down to the weir if they are seriously attacked.

Where from does come this wish to talk itself, judo is something "clean" and is not to be used for "so dirty" things like self-defence?

Anyway ...
I said what I had to say.


What a pity ...
No questions about effective training methods of the "old ways".
No questions about Atemi-Waza and how to using it.
No questions how to practise the use of Atemi-Waza or to deflect punches and kicks in real "street brawls" ...
No questions about real violence, about experiences with it and handling it.
Seems that there is a real aversion to discuss such things.

But why then have a subforum "Self Defence" here?
What for?

Gentlemen, I'm off.
If anybody is interested in stuff i have to share please feel free to contact me.
Kindest regards
Tom

Bed time. We will have more time to debate latter in the day.

Mike.

tom herold wrote:
What a pity ...
No questions about effective training methods of the "old ways".
No questions about Atemi-Waza and how to using it.
No questions how to practise the use of Atemi-Waza or to deflect punches and kicks in real "street brawls" ...
No questions about real violence, about experiences with it and handling it.
Seems that there is a real aversion to discuss such things.

Apologies, Tom.

I'm not judo - though I have an understanding of it. I am ju-jitsu. Further, I am ju-jitsu for self defence (though I have competed in the past). That said, I have not had to use ju-jitsu in a violent situation for many, many years. I am simply not in many situations that are likely to turn violent, and hope things remain that way.

I have a question for you: please can you describe some violent situations you have been in, what you did to survive, and what you learnt from them?

Thank you, Doug.


I try to explain ...
I am sorry, but I am a very feeling-stressed person.
And judo is my life. In the most true sense of the word my whole life.

I grew up in violence. I grew up in a child home in the former so called "German Democratic Republic".
Maybe you can imagine ...
Violence there was absolutely normal.
And legal, by the way.

And my hometown stated the list of the towns with the highest rate of violence and suicides for decades.
No, it was not Bogota, and it was not Manila or Beirut.
But the everyday, nearly quite "normal" violence still lay above average in the GDR at that time.

This was I grew up and therefore, violence is not unusual for me and also is not especially frightening.
I have simply already seen too much real, unrestrained violence and too much must endure of it themselves.

Judo was my only way to handle this.
Judo has prevented that I sink into this violence.
Judo prevented that I was a victim longer.

My experiences showed me that judo is one of the very best possibilities to handle violence. Judo has such a rich curriculum ... and such good old training methods to get all the needful abilities for "street brawling" ... much better other things i saw and tried.

Imagine ...
There are some violent criminals who want to act out their everyday frustration in somebody. No other reason.
Everybody is right to them as a victim.
They have no inhibitions, no scruples, no conscience.
They were already in prison, they have no more fear.

The social settlement in which they live (and also you!) is so hopeless that it cannot come more badly at all.
And then you cross by chance her way.
And they begin to hit on you.
If you are a child or a very young teen you will have no chance.
But you get older.
Harder.
Stronger by practising judo.
You are not interested in "competition".
You are interested in surviving in the sense of the word.
And you find a judo teacher coming from the same place.
And he teaches you judo for the worst case.
You dare to fight then, you learn to kick very hard and good, you learn to use your ellbows and your knees and you attack the really weak points of body.
Groins, neck, sides of the knees ... eyes.
As hard as you can.
And, besides, you are as merciless as your attackers, because if you are not it, you are finished.

And it will be not the one and only struggle you have in your young life.
Seems like it will never end with all this violence.
After some time you have worked a certain reputation.
You have got a "name" in the streets.
Now the jackals leave you alone. You have become too hard for them.
But now there come the really "hard boys", because they have to lose a reputation.
And this is all they have.
And so everything gets harder and harder.
Knives come into the play... (my scars are to be seen even today).
And there is simply no possibility to get away from there.
And suddenly, without you wanted it, you yourself are one of the "quite hard boys" in this stupid social settlement.
What have you got to know then except violence?
But you have judo.
You get better and better in judo.
Not in the sense of "sport" or competition - you only can laugh if somebody tells you about competition would be a kind of "combat".

But you dive into judo much deeper than all the sport judoka.
Much deeper.
You will find yourself there.
You will begin to understand.
You will begin to understand why people do what they do.
You will begin to understand why people are so weak, so aggressive, so bad.
You will begin to understand yourself.
You will begin to understand WHY you was a victim when you was a child.

You never again want to be a victim.
So you do all what is necessary.
You are going deeper and deeper in judo. You reach places the most sport judoka will never know that these places exist.
And then you will understand that it is your duty to share what you know.
And you begin to teach.
And the guys coming to you are the same boys you was one long time ago ...

Sorry for writing all this.

DougNZ wrote:

tom herold wrote:
What a pity ...
No questions about effective training methods of the "old ways".
No questions about Atemi-Waza and how to using it.
No questions how to practise the use of Atemi-Waza or to deflect punches and kicks in real "street brawls" ...
No questions about real violence, about experiences with it and handling it.
Seems that there is a real aversion to discuss such things.

Apologies, Tom.

I'm not judo - though I have an understanding of it. I am ju-jitsu. Further, I am ju-jitsu for self defence (though I have competed in the past). That said, I have not had to use ju-jitsu in a violent situation for many, many years. I am simply not in many situations that are likely to turn violent, and hope things remain that way.

I have a question for you: please can you describe some violent situations you have been in, what you did to survive, and what you learnt from them?

Hiya Doug,

Now I understand your position much better. To you my posts must appear to be saying kodokan judo is the holly grail while ju jutsu is a barbaric activity only practiced by bullies. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The only unbiased and well structured critic of judo I have ever read was written by a ju jutsuka.

The kodokan is still one of the largest propaganda machines known in the world of budo. I am NOT a fan of the kodokan. The life and times of Kano Shihan are simply riddled with falsehoods. Again I am not in any small way naïve regarding Kano Jigoro or his kodokan.

Doug there is todays ju jutsu and the ju jutsu taught and practiced 150 years ago. They are not one and the same. One cannot today truly practice much of the old Ju jutsu or as you write pupils would die or be maimed. I have written this myself. Judo today is a very diluted consumer sport very far removed from what kano intened it to be.

I have read that Kano tried to preserve some of the old Ju jutsu ryu and you are correct when you write that the first sensei at the lodokan in 1882 where from ju jutsu ryu. Again you are spot on when you mention Kodokan judo cannot have been just born in one day. Judo took many years to refine and build and kano Shihan, being an educator, first and formost ensured judo refined and developed as time passed learning from experience and practice. Judo was not realy a one man show, kano would certainly have learned and integrated an awful lot into kodokan judo by those who supported his initial ideals and goals, many of those initial uchideshi to kano where ju jutsuka. Kodokan judo as it was known at the time of kano's death took years of development and certainly didn't exist in 1882.

The ju jutsu you may practice today has to be safe. Again as you write there has to be a sense of mutual welfare and benefit of you would all end up in serious trouble with the law. Doug, this was certainly not the case with ju jutsu schools pre 1870's. Pupils used to write their last will and testament prior to practice as in certain schools it was never ertain a pupil would even return home, these are not 'tales' from judoka but from those who survived the practice of ju jutsu.. Kano didn't reinvent ju jutsu in truth he rejected it as it stood and founded a new manner of training. That new philosophy was called kodokan judo. Kano Shihan was, as I have mentioned, a very cool cookie and a brilliant articulate salesman. Judo soon took over the place previously held by ju jutsu ryu and became the acceptable face of martial fighting in Japan. Without a doubt Kano was a pioneer in education not only in terms of judo but in schools and in the way teachers where taught and trained.

Kano was also an immensely strong advocate of sport and founded the first sporting federation in japan when he accepted to be the first orientel representative on the IOC.

I don't think we can in all fairness compare the ju jutsu of the past with what is taught today. Samurai didn't learn how to love they learned how to kill.

For my liking there are to many romantic fairy tales regarding the samurai. Samurai where fighters who sold their services to a person who they would then show loyalty toward. Today such fighting people are called mercenaries! As you well know a masterless samurai was called ronin.

Todays ju jutsu and judo share many of the philosophies that originally parted and dived them. Even the physical aspects of ju jutsu sometimes cross over into the area of sport just as judo has.

To recap. Doug I can see why you now fight the corner and virtue of ju jutsu. I respect that. In my previous posts it has not been my intention to score points for judo at the expense of ju jutsu, not at all.

Best wishes,

Mike

tom herold wrote:Thank you, Doug.


I try to explain ...
I am sorry, but I am a very feeling-stressed person.
And judo is my life. In the most true sense of the word my whole life.

I grew up in violence. I grew up in a child home in the former so called "German Democratic Republic".
Maybe you can imagine ...
Violence there was absolutely normal.

And my hometown stated the list of the towns with the highest rate of violence for decades.
No, it was not Bogota, and it was not Manila or Beirut.
But the everyday, nearly quite "normal" violence still lay above average in the GDR at that time.

This was I grew up and therefore, violence is not unusual for me and also is not especially frightening.
I have simply already seen too much real, unrestrained violence and too much must endure of it themselves.

Judo was my only way to handle this.
Judo has prevented that I sink into this violence.
Judo prevented that I was a victim longer.

My experiences showed me that judo is one of the very best possibilities to handle violence. Judo has such a rich curriculum ... and such good old training methods to get the needful abilities for "street brawling" ... much better other things i saw and tried.

Imagine ...
There are some violent criminals who want to act out their everyday frustration in somebody.
Everybody is right to them as a victim.
They have no inhibitions, no scruples, no conscience.
In the prison they were already, before it they have no more fear.

The social settlement in which they live (and you also) is so hopeless that it cannot come at all more badly.
And then you cross by chance her way.
And they begin to hit on you.
If you are a child or a very young teen you will have no chance.
But you get older.
Harder.
Stronger by practising judo.
You are not interested in "competition".
You are interested in surviving in the sense of the word.
And you found a judo teacher coming from the same place.
And he teaches you judo for the worst case.
You dare to fight then, you learned to kick very hard and good, you learned to use your ellbows and your knees and you attack the really weak points.
Groins, neck, sides of the knees ... eyes.
As hard as you can.
And, besides, you are as merciless as your attackers, because if you are not it, you are finished.

And it will be not the one and only struggle you have in your young life.
It seems like it will never end with all this violence.
After some time you have worked a certain call.
Now the jackals leave alone you. You have become too dangerous for them.
But now there come the really "hard boys", because they have to lose a call.
And it becomes harder and harder.
Knives come into the play... (my scars are to be seen even today).
And there is simply no possibility to get away from there.
And suddenly, without you wanted it, you yourself are one of the "quite hard boys" in this stupid social settlement.
What have you got to know then except violence?
But you have judo.
You get better and better in judo.
Not in the sense of "sport" or competition - you only can laugh if somebody tells you about competiton would be a kind of "combat".

But you dive into judo much deeper than all the sport judoka.
Much deeper.
You find yourself there.
You begin to understand.
You begin to understand why people do what they do.
You begin to understand why people are so weak, so aggressive, so bad.
You begin to understand yourself.
You begin to understand WHY you was a victim when you was a child.

You never again ant to be a victim.
So you do all what is necessary.
You are going deeper and deeper in judo. You reach places the most sport judoka never know that these places exist.
And then you understand that it is your duty to share what you know.
And you begin to teach.
And the guys coming to you are the same boys you was one long time ago ...

Sorry for writing all this.

Dear Tom, I can feel your pain and frustration in every word you write. You have become a survivor, a survivor of societal abuse that many people cannot comprehend.

Several small points come to mind. You lived and grew with street crime, with violence. I cannot though equate how judo helped you become a more efficient fighter? The ways you describe your 'judo' training is certainly not what kano founded nor intended. A judo teacher can only teach what he or she knows, that's an obvious statement, perhaps your teacher taught not kodokan judo but what you guys needed at that time to survive and live? Only you can answer that, I wasn't there.

I try to teach the judo my sensei taught me, its kodokan judo through the lineage of the pre WW!! DNBK. My sensei didn't identify judo as a sport, a martial art nor hobby, to them judo was a vehicle for life. In my dojo when I was teaching I taught atami waza and atemi waza is a part of our grading syllabus and structure.

Where we part is where you write that your judo involved atemi waza in randori, randori as the accepted manner of randori that being nage and katame waza. I have never seen nor heard of atemi waza being used in judo randori? I would suggest that if you are training in such a fashion perhaps its no longer kodokan judo but something else? Just food for thought.

I believe what you learned was indeed effective in a street fight I don't doubt you for a second. What I respectfully question is if you where in fact learning judo or another form of SD needed for the times and conditions you lived in?

Thanks for your honest, open narrative of your time growing up under such harrowing circumstances. I cant imagine.

Sincerely,

Mike

I think, judo training should give the pupils the moral compass to decide when its time to fight and when not.
Thats for me one part of the pedagogical concept of judo.

But this could only be work, if we give them the mental, technical and physical abilities to fight
- it would be irresponsible to say: Oh there would be the time to fight - but sorry -
all you can do then is to die...

But good thoughts in the thread, thanks to all participants..

Fritz wrote:I think, judo training should give the pupils the moral compass to decide when its time to fight and when not.
Thats for me one part of the pedagogical concept of judo.

But this could only be work, if we give them the mental, technical and physical abilities to fight
- it would be irresponsible to say: Oh there would be the time to fight - but sorry -
all you can do then is to die...

But good thoughts in the thread, thanks to all participants..

I think Judo can give a moral compass as to how to avoid situations where one may need to fight. Judo taught me I am not invincible and how fragile the human body and mind can be. A modern day dojo should be teaching kids safety and how to maintain safety. parents are their children's SD, knowing where they are and who they are with every second of their lives.

Adult SD should start and begin with lectures. Not physical techniques. I have read in this very thread about hospital staff and other public workers needing SD as their patients can be violent, this is nothing new. Friday and Saturday evenings in most A&E departments are full of drunks, staff need and deserve protection. To expect a nurse or doctor to spend their professional lives treating the sick then spend their social lives learning how to defend themselves in aid to preserve life is odd. Most A&E departments I know have security staff who are trained to protect. In this country a police officer is always on site 24/24.

I don't think a greater amount of misinformation exists among the public or those who practice a fighting system than that of self defence. Massive subject and not at all what is so often written about.

This is indeed a debate of interest.

Mike

Dear Hanon Sensei,

I cannot though equate how judo helped you become a more efficient fighter?

Simply through learning effective atemi waza.
Teached by a very experienced teacher.
And that is what I call an "experienced teacher": he not only read books about atemi and he not only is a theorist.
He can teach it "hands on".
I did learn throws and groundwork not only in a "sportive" manner.
As I said I did learn the old ways.

This was what I did learn from my first teacher, and he was a well known judoka in the GDR.
Years later I became a student of my second teacher Frank Thiele, and he was a student for more then 30 years of Tokio Hirano.
And i found in the teachings of Frank Thiele Sensei the same intentions my first teacher gave to me.

The ways you describe your 'judo' training is certainly not what kano founded nor intended.

I am sorry but how you can be so sure?
Tokio Hirano told a lot about his teachers Ushijima, Fukushima ... and it sounded like my first teacher told.

A judo teacher can only teach what he or she knows, that's an obvious
statement, perhaps your teacher taught not kodokan judo but what you
guys needed at that time to survive and live?

I wonder why what I learned not should be Kodokan Judo?
We practised not with the intention the sport judoka had and have until today.
That shall be enough to say: It is not Kodokan Judo?
Please - why?

I try to teach the judo my sensei taught me, its kodokan judo through the lineage of the pre WW!!

And so do I.
My first teacher was a close student of Horst Wolf, and Horst Wolf was (more or less) a student of Kawaishi.
My second teacher was for more than 30 years a very close student of Tokio Hirano.
Both should have teached definitely pre WW II judo I think ...

In my dojo when I was teaching I taught atami waza and atemi waza is a part of our grading syllabus and structure.

Allright.
Please forgive me, but ... you want to know something about the effectiveness of your throws, do you? So you try to use these throws in randori or even in competition, right? Only this can prove.
Same with the groundwork.
What about atemi?
In my point of view it is useless to learn atemi without practise it in repeated hard randori / sparring.
In full contact.
Without protectors.

Same thing is it with the throws. They are usesless until you are able to do every throwing technique, following the principles, without a gi.
When I was a teen we went three times a week out from the dojo, wearing everyday clothes, an practised on a meadow or elsewhere.
No grip "forbidden".
No idea of "hold him 30 seconds and you win".
No idea of "stop your punch, it is too dangerous".

Do boxers stop their punches?
Do the guys from Muay Thai stop their elbows and knees?
Or the guys from Kyokushinkai?
Do the Sambo guys stop their punches and kicks?
Or the guys from Kalarippayat?
Or the guys from the chinese Sanda?
They don't.

Why should it be too dangerous then for judoka to use atemi in randori in full power and speed?
We do that for decades and it is the same to do throws in full speed or to use strangleholds or jointlocks.

I am sorry, Hanon Sensei, I do respect you much as you now, but I can't follow you.


And why to do all this should not be Kodokan Judo in the sense of Kano?
There are a lot of writings from the founder himself. Kano wrote that he wish his judo understood as martial art.
I will post such a text If you want.

I believe what you learned was indeed effective in a street fight I
don't doubt you for a second. What I respectfully question is if you
where in fact learning judo or another form of SD needed for the times
and conditions you lived in?

What I was learnig was judo.
My first teacher never had the opportunity to learn another martial art.
We lived in the GDR, please do not forget this. No possibilities to learn Karate or Muay Thai, "Jiu Jitsu" or other fighting systems.

There were only boxing, wrestling and judo.
And I was learning judo.
All the old teachers in the GDR i met told me that judo was a martial art and would be one of the best thing ever made up for self defence.
If practised correctly in the old manner.

Yes, it can be used as a sport.
As I wrote, Kano understood the FIRST level of his judo as "defence against attack".
This had nothing to do with sport.

Jigaro Kano, as quoted by Gunji Koizumi in the Budokwai Bulletin (April 1947)
I have been asked by people of various sections as to the wisdom and
possibility of Judo being introduced with other games and sports at the
Olympic Games. My view on the matter, at present, is rather passive. If
it be the desire of other member countries, I have no objection. But I
do not feel inclined to take any initiative. For one thing, Judo in
reality is not a mere sport or game. I regard it as a principle of life,
art and science. In fact, it is a means for personal cultural
attainment. Only one of the forms of Judo training, so-called randori or free practice can be classed as a form of sport.

There is a small booklet from Naoki Murata, entitled "Mind over muscle".
You all will know it.
There you can find some words of the founder about "Judo as Martial Art".

Hanon wrote:I think Judo can give a moral compass as to how to avoid situations where one may need to fight. Judo taught me I am not invincible and how fragile the human body and mind can be. A modern day dojo should be teaching kids safety and how to maintain safety. parents are their children's SD, knowing where they are and who they are with every second of their lives.

Ok, thats true, thats an important aspect, too. But not the only one.
If only this would be necessary, what would be the reason to teach the kids, adolescents (and adults) potentially deadly things like throws and chokes - and let play them around with that for cultivating their minds or so? (No one would give kids real loaded firearms
for playing "cops and robbers" or "capture the flag" or what ever - even if this arms are "unsharped"/defused (to stay to the analogy with judo: the defusing
would be some little tape at the trigger and some training for the "partner" to duck down and hide ;-), No - they get safe mock-ups, toys if at all ;-) )

Its irrational to believe, that everyone, every time could stay away from trouble. There a lots of youtube-videos showing the opposite.
And I believe its an irresponsible thing to suggest, that there is always a way to avoid any fight or there are always "special forces" to fight as placeholder.

And so - in my eyes - we should teach your aspect, but we should learn and teach the "fight in earnest" aspect too...

And we should remember our pupils very often, that judo is not (only) having fun while romping around at nice, soft mats
- but that all these nice techniques can/was be used to cripple or to kill with intent or by accident, they are no toys, never! :-(

(If i give someone a weapon, i have to make sure, that this person is able to handle it carefully and responsible.
But if i gave them the weapon, i expect that this person is able to use this weapon if they or other are in life threat and there is no other safe way out...)

Hanon wrote:Adult SD should start and begin with lectures. Not physical techniques. I have read in this very thread about hospital staff and other public workers needing SD as their patients can be violent, this is nothing new. Friday and Saturday evenings in most A&E departments are full of drunks, staff need and deserve protection. To expect a nurse or doctor to spend their professional lives treating the sick then spend their social lives learning how to defend themselves in aid to preserve life is odd. Most A&E departments I know have security staff who are trained to protect. In this country a police officer is always on site 24/24.

Thats odd, but as said before, let the nurse go home and being raped at her way,
then all the trained security staff its worth no penny, all she had at least are her own fighting abilities .. :-(

Sorry, but i'm afraid my English is not so well today to explain my point clearly...

And again Kano himself:

Kano (1931a, p.3) says in 1932, "This technique is one of the methods developed against western boxing. This kata was formulated as
a counter technique against western boxing, though there is no doubt
that it is applied not only against boxing but also in other cases.
It is obvious that randori is needed, but we cannot practice atemi in randori.
A martial art that lacks atemi is a deformed martial art.
Therefore,
we have to practice in parallel both randori and kata, but kata is
generally neglected while practitioners apply themselves sincerely to
randori.

This "atemi cannot practice in randori" was for children, teenagers and so on.
I know that Tokio Hirano Sensei reported about randori where atemi used.

Again Kano himself:

In 1921, when Ad Santel, professional
wrestler, visited Tokyo to fight with judoists of the Kodokan by the
brokerage of a promoter, the public opinion was in a fervour over the
bout. The basis of Kano’s argument (1921, pp.2-5) was that in the narrow sense, judo
is the best way of using body and mind aiming at offense and defense.
Therefore, a judoist uses any weapons, like, bo (stick), sword, pistol,
if it is useful. If so, a bout with a judoist could not be organized unless a challenger is prepared to die.
Kano says, “I would like you to keep in your memory that a bout between a judoist and another martial artist is organized only as a real fight.”

(Kano, J. (1921), The bout against Santel, “Yuko-no-katsudo [Effective activities]”, vol. 4)

We do find this, written by Fumiaki Shishida (Waseda University):

Jigoro Kano’s pursuit of ideal judo and its succession: Judo’s techniques performed from a distance (2010)

Kodokan Laboratory of Martial Arts

In March of 1926, Kano (1926, p.3) announced the mission of the Kodokan and its undertaking as follows.
−− The Kodokan will establish a Laboratory of Martial Arts. In the group, we will study traditional Japanese martial arts as basics and, in consideration of foreign countries’ martial arts, practice those martial arts, etc.

−− The Kodokan’s policy is that we will study and teach Kenjutsu (the art of fencing), Bo-jutsu (the art of staff fighting), So-jutsu (the art of the spear), Kyu-jutsu (the art of archery) and Naginata-jutsu (the art of the Japanese halberd), and all other martial arts as elements of judo.

−−
We will place emphasis on empty-handed arts, but the kata of both
Kenjutsu and Bo-jutsu will be added to the list of arts now.

−− We will apply the principle of “Seiryoku-zen’yo” in the Kodokan to study and teach them.

Kano declared that there should be a systematic and concrete study in the Kodokan to realize his ideal of judo, not as sport but as martial art.

This is also the lower level of judo, based on his whole judo concept of 1918 (Kano, 1918). It means that the Kodokan officially had a mandate to study other martial arts since 1926

.
I did not want to be such loud but I wish to show especially this point.

Judo is a sport ...?
Here a piece of text Kano wrote:

But the object of competitive sport is a simple and narrow one, whereas the objective of Jûdô is complex and wide.

Competitive sport pursues only one part of the objective of Jûdô.

Of
course, Jûdô can be treated simply as a competitive sport, and it may
be all right to do so. But the ultimate objective of Jûdô cannot be
attained in that way.

So while we recognize that there is a demand these days to treat Jûdô on the lines of a competitive sport, on the other hand we must not forget what the real essence of Jûdô is and where it lies.“

(KANO Jigoro „What we learn from Jûdô“ in : Trevor Legget „The Spirit of Budô“ S. 99)

Again Fumiaki Shishida:

Yujiro Watanabe, a famous boxing instructor, who was one of referees of
four matches between four judoists and Santel and Henry Weber, Santel’s
accompanying wrestler, described in a general magazine, April issue,
1921:
Santel is not a boxer but a wrestler. There is an atemi
in judo but judoists don’t study it. ... So they have practiced it only
as kata, almost nobody has examined its effectiveness. ... When a
judoist stabs, he can not extend his arm. When he tries to extend it,
the shoulder part is stiff (Marushima, p. 202).
Kano would have to read it.

As we can see it was even in 1921 that judoka did not use their own atemi.
Why?
We could read it.
Because they did not practise it in the necessary manner.
They only "did as if they would".
And even this is today gone.

This is what drives me crazy - we do have in judo all we need for a very effective martial art. But most sport judoka do not want this in "their" so "clean" judo.
What a pity.
That is so bitter ...

Again Fumiaki Shisida, citing Kano himself:

Kano visited Waseda University and observed its practice June 10, 1931.
Meanwhile Kano continued to develop the comprehensive program at the Kodokan, saying as follows (1932, pp.2-3),
I decided to start to make members practice wrestling, besides continuing to make them practice bo-jutsu
... The study of kenjutsu, boxing, and other arts will be started by degrees. Hereby I will train the greatest authorities of martial arts in the country first, in the world next.

Sport ...?

In 1902, Kunisaburo Iizuka, 5th dan judo,
instructor of Keio University, planned a fight with a western boxer, but
the boxer did not show up at the prearranged spot (Mita-juyu-kai, 1933,
p.86)

(Mita-juyu-kai [ed.] (1933), Keio University Judo Club History, Mita-juyu-kai, Tokyo)

Shishida again:

After Yoshitsugu Yamashita’s success in teaching judo to U.S. president Theodore Roosevelt in 1904 and
cadets at the at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis, several
judoists visited the U.S. and fought boxers and wrestlers.

Interestingly, Kenji Kano, Jigoro Kano’s cousin, performed a key role in the development of boxingin Japan.
Kenji Kano, 21 years younger than Jigoro Kano, established the International Boxing Club at Mikage-cho, Kobe, in 1909 (Shishida, 1979).

(Shishida, F. (1979), The evolution of the definition of judo and the development of Kano’s involvement with other martial arts. Master’s thesis, Graduate School of Physical Education, Tsukuba University, 1979 fiscal year)
(Unpublished)

According to Nobuo Gunji (1976, pp.17-19), his
club did not practice only pure boxing but also produced matches
between a judoist and a boxer; it was successful and the venues of their
bouts were filled beyond capacity in Osaka, Kobe and Tokyo. However,
the number of judo versus boxing matches declined as the number of
serious boxing exhibitions increased.

(Nobuo Gunji (1976), One Hundred years of Judo, News agency of current affairs, Tokyo.)

With this background, Kano observed
boxing enthusiastically more than once during his 1912 trip to the West,
as the head of the Japanese delegation at the Stockholm Olympic Games.
Kano’s English diary (Kato, 1964, p.165, p.172) says,
(Monday
July 8.) At the stadium I talked with Evert (to whom I was introduced
by Professor Slorum the other day). He promised to introduce amateur
boxers, wrestlers, etc., to study comparatively.

(Wednesday December 4 in Paris) At 5 p.m., I returned to the Japanese Embassy and waited for Baron de
Coubertin.
He came and led me to ..., I observed boxing and fencing. I returned at
7: 30 p.m. and read a book. At 9 p.m., I went to Paris Circus and
observed a boxing match between an American and a Frenchman

(Kato, N. (1964), Kano Jigoro, Shoyo- shoin, Tokyo.)

This sould be from interest.
Kano himself wrote:

These two parts show Kano’s interest in observing amateur boxers and wrestlers, and reveals Kano’s strong interest in boxing.
(Thursday December 5 in Paris) I talked with Sugimura. His hope is, “... Boxing should be introduced to improve judo”.

(Kato, N. (1964), Kano Jigoro, Shoyo- shoin, Tokyo.)

And please, Gentlemen, note THIS:

Kano (1918, Vol.7: 5) says in 1918, “Judoka will come to exert their energy to study boxing in the future.”

(Kano, J. (1918), A discourse regarding the three stages of judo: upper, middle, and lower, “Judo”, vol.7)
The FOUNDER himself.
There should be no more questions about this.

In fact, in 1927, nine years later, Kano (Kano, J., Otaki. T., ed., 1972, p.118) warned how to approach a boxer and gave a concrete example about how to fight with a boxer:
A
judoist attacks an opponent by not only striking techniques but also
throwing techniques, and also twisting an opponent’s joint, so that he
doesn’t need to always keep his distance from an opponent as in boxing.
The judoka approaches his opponent, and grasps his clothes, grasps his
hand or seizes his neck.
But even in this event, he has to approach while closely guarding against the opponent’s striking or kicking.

(Otaki. T., ed., 1972, p. 118)

I think that should be enough this time.
Please Gentlemen, read carefully.
And then remember that judo at its basic is a martial art.

Gentlemen,
the term "martial art" seems to include weapons?

So please read that:

"Magazine "Judo", year Showa 10 (1935) April[/b]

"The reason why the Kodokan has made available to the teaching of Bojutsu (Practice Staff) to anyone who is interested."

Jigoro Kano - Kodokan Shihan

In addition to Jujitsu, we must consider the experience of Bojutsu, which is a very important thing and that seems to be overlooked by many people today.


That is about eight years ago (Showa 2, 1927), we gathered people interested in the Kodokan and we started practicing in bojutsu Tamai Sensei, Sensei Shiina, Ito Sensei and Sensei of Katori Shinto Ryu Kuboki, all from the prefecture of Chiba. About four years ago we received, from Fukuoka, Shimizu Sensei of Shindo Muso Ryu (jojutsu), and still continue the practice of this technique.
Today, thanks to Sensei and Takeda Sensei Hioki, and with the help of
others, we are increasingly able to practice these arts. In addition to
the beginner we recently about 50 participants, so that we must
practice the principal of the Kodokan Dojo.

In the future, in addition to the efforts made so far, we intend to continue to invite the great masters of Bojutsu.
As we took the essence of various schools of jujutsu to develop the basics of judo, we have had great success in gathering techniques bojutsu many schools and doing searches of these.
Now, as a branch of the Kodokan Judo, we created the Kodokan Bojutsu.

Kodokan Bojutsu as "a new branch of judo ..."

Necessary to say more?


And in question of practising atemi-waza we can find that:

To know how and where to strike or kick is not sufficient for applying atemiwaza effectively as is the case in other tricks.
You must first learn to move about freely and unrestrainedly by means of the practice of other branches of jûdô in order to be able to apply these tricks.

Even if you were able to hit any part of your enemy's body with your hand or foot, it would not be effective, unless you are skilful in striking, poking, and kicking.
Not
only, therefore, you must learn where an how to hit and practice it,
but also you must try to acquire skill in striking, poking and kicking
by constant practice

.(Yokoyama Sakujiro "Jûdô Kyohan", 1915, S. 293)

By constant practice ...

I posted this words of the founder and of his closest students so very often in different judoforums ...
And nobody is interested in.
Seems nobody is acting like Kano, Yokoyama and others said.
What a pity.

What said Kano in 1928?

"The reason for the kinds of abuses that have arisen today is that people have forgotten that randori practice means fighting in earnest."

(Watson et al)

The founder himself said so.
I am afraid he was right.

This is what Kano said in matter of "Judo as Martial Art":

"In addition to being masters in the skills of unarmed combat, judo instructors should also be skilled in the arts of bojutsu and kenjutsu".

(see Watson "Judo Memoirs", and you will find this also in: Niehaus, S.222)

Again Kano himself in repetition:

"The reason for the kinds of abuses that have arisen today is that people have forgotten that randori practice means fighting in earnest.
If one fights in earnest, a stance in which you lower your hips, spread your legs, and tilt your head forward is extremely disadvatageous.
Both your face and your chest are vulnerable to your opponent's atemi.
Atemi is not used in everyday randori practice, but you MUST nevertheless practice with the expactation that your opponent may attack using atemi at any time."

(Mind over Muscle, S. 139)

How about this?

"According
to circumstances, atewaza (art of striking vital points) is preferable
to nagewaza and katamewaza, especially when you are confronted by a
number of antagonists"

(Sumitomo Arima: "Judo japanese physical culture" (1904)

Jûdô as Martial Art (Auszug)

Kano wrote:

In 1882, when I began to use the term “Jûdô” it did not mean “Give way first in order to win later”. Rather, it meant that no matter the goal, in order to accomplish it you must put your mental and physical enemy to work in the most effective manner. That is to say, it represented “Seiryoku Zenyo”. When this principle is applied to the martial arts, it takes the form of various kata and the randori of judo as well as gekiken or kendo, in which one practices attacking with a bamboo sword. In short, all training in the martial arts involves the application of this principle to defense against attack.

(“Jûdô no Konpongi ni Tsuite”, in : Jûdô, Vol. 8, Tokyo, 11. Nov. 1937)

What about this?
Lower-Level Judo

In lower-level judo the purpose of training is
to learn how to defend against attack. At this level most of the
training uses bare hands only, but weapons are sometimes used for kata.
However, revently I have come to believe that in judo training for small
children, inflatable swords made of rubebr or cloth rather than bamboo
swords should be used right from the start to teach kata in which they
learn to strike or thrust at each other and to fend off these blows.
That is to say, I would like tto incorporate some of the kata that were
formerly taught in kendo into judo training in some form.
By rights, spears, naginata,
and other weapons used for the purpose of defending against attack
should be included in judo. Swords and sticks, however, have the most
uses as weapons, and kendo is one of the essential elements of judo, so
should be included in judo in some form. It is necessary not only as
kata but also in competition.
In the future I believe judo will incorporate some of the kata from the
current kendo into irdinary training, but I believe the current kendo,
as it stands now, is less than satisfactory.

("Mind over Muscle" Kap 3.2. (S.94 ff)

Is that all spoken in the wind ...?

Allright, Gentlemen.
I think I brought enough words from the founder himself and from some of his closest students.

If that should not be enough to understand that judo at its basic is indeed a martial art I do not know what to say more.

Yes, it would be possible to say: "Hey, the founder had a complete different intention when saying these things!"
Had he?
Or is it simply true what we can read?


Kindest regards
Tom

Hello Tom.

You have written chapter and verse on your own question, you asked it then answered it yourself. I am unsure if there is anything to write to you on this subject?

I appreciate the time and effort you have placed in your posts. In some areas we agree, on some we do not and this is fine and as it should be Tom. Our experiences differ a great deal and that is also just fine. Like you I do not refer to judo as a sport though we would both have to concede that their are elements of sport in some small practices of judo is we truly understand what is meant by the terms 'sport' .

I have not seen, nor read of, nor heard of atemi waza being utilised in what is known today as randori. Ju jutsu, yes. From the way you write of your experience in learning judo it is different than I have read before. I taught atemi waza, we sparred in atemi waza but never used such lethal waza in randori mixed with nage and katame waza. I agree 100% that kata are not the way to learn atemi. kata have a use, an invaluable use but are not a means in themselves to an end.

So. I agree atemi waza are an integral part of kodokan judo.

I agree kodokan judo is not a sport.

We disagree that judo is a martial art. Martials arts are classed and codified as bugei. Judo is a budo with a totally different philosophy than that of the bugei. We can agree to disagree on this point though and that's fine.

I agree judo can be useful in a SD situation given the million variables available. I disagree judo is even close to the best method of SD.

I strongly suggest that real SD is a highly complex field and cannot be debated fully within the confines of just one thread, its a book and a major text at that.

My very best wishes to you and yours Tom,

Mike

Dear Hanon Sensei

You have written chapter and verse on your own question, you asked it
then answered it yourself. I am unsure if there is anything to write to
you on this subject?

I had questions.
I asked this questions here and I said I had lot of experiences with this kind of stuff.
I asked my questions to find other traditional judoka interested in judo as martial art.
That's why.

Then I get answers which told me judo never would have been a martial art nor would be useful for sellf defence.
In answering this claims I brought the words of the founder himself.
Respectfully I want to say that this is not the same like "answering myself".

I repeat I do not want to be impolite.
I only tried to bring in this forum another sight of what judo is.
And as far as I could see i did prove my claims.

I have not seen, nor read of, nor heard of atemi waza being utilised in what is known today as randori.
Ju jutsu, yes. From the way you write of your experience in learning
judo it is different than I have read before. I taught atemi waza, we
sparred in atemi waza but never used such lethal waza in randori mixed
with nage and katame waza. I agree 100% that kata are not the way to
learn atemi. kata have a use, an invaluable use but are not a means in
themselves to an end.

As you said our experiences differ.
That's ok.

So. I agree atemi waza are an integral part of kodokan judo.

Thank you Hanon sensei.
Good to read.

I agree kodokan judo is not a sport.

Thanks again.
There we agree 100%.

We disagree that judo is a martial art. Martials arts are classed and
codified as bugei. Judo is a budo with a totally different philosophy
than that of the bugei. We can agree to disagree on this point though
and that's fine.

Thank you Hanon Sensei.
I hesitate to contradict you, but ...
This dichotomy comes from D.F. Draeger and is not quite correct in historical sense.
It is only what Draeger thought.

So we can read by Diane Skoss:

But, if I tell a fellow Japanese martial artist that I practice budo, a
whole new set of misunderstandings arise. Donn Draeger, who paved the
way for all of us who pursue the classical arts, oversimplified some of
his definitions. He was one of the first to write systematically about
Japanese martial arts, in his Martial Arts and Ways of Japan series, and
many take his dichotomy of budo and bujutsu (further divided into
classical and modern) as gospel. We learn, when we read Draeger, that
budo is translated "martial way." Arts whose names end in the suffix -do
are modern developments with a fair degree of emphasis on character
building and "spiritual forging." (The notion of "michi" or "do" is an
important part of Japanese culture and like most other ideas in Japan,
everyone there shares a similar understanding of what it means to be a
"follower of the way." This is less immediately understood in the West.)
Bujutsu, on the other hand, is "martial technique or skill"; arts whose
names end in -jutsu are the "real" fighting arts that gave rise to the
more civilized (others say weaker) budo. Values have come to be attached
to the terms--some view bujutsu as barbaric and crude, while others see
budo as emasculated shadows of noble predecessors.

Naturally, neither view is true, and the dichotomy (with or without the
values) is not so simple. While the do/jutsu contrast certainly
describes aspects of different approaches to any given Japanese art, it
simply is not used to neatly categorize and characterize the arts in
Japan.

This should be not forget I think.

In my opinion, almost all Japanese martial arts contain within them
aspects of jutsu and aspects of do. Different teachers may well
emphasize one or the other. One of my teachers has taught me that you
enter the do through the vehicle of the jutsu. In other (my) words, one
uses the perfecting of killing techniques to progress along the way of
perfecting one's life.

I am sorry.
I hoped to find here judoka interested in judo as martial art.
And indeed, in the words of the FOUNDER himself judo IS a martial art!

Now I do not know what i shall do.
I could bring more and more words of the founder, but what for?
What a pity.

I disagree judo is even close to the best method of SD.

Again - what a pity.
That ignores decades of my own experiences ...
But it's your opinion and that is fine at least.






Allright, maybe there are some judoka trying to read the words of the founder himself.
Maybe then there are judoka trying to listen to me ..,
Maybe.

Hanon, thank you for your kind words. I soon came to see that much of our debate was due to definition and interpretation. It turned out that we were pretty much singing from the same songsheet.

Tom, thank you for sharing your thoughts and giving us a glimpse of your background. They have been hard times. I have learnt that the depth of understanding of fighting is directly correlated to the frequency and 'nastiness' of the fighting. How can we truely understand striking if we have never faced being knocked out or knocked someone out? How can we understand strangles if we have not placed ourselves in a position where we could be strangled out or have, indeed, strangled someone unconscious or been strangled unconscious? And how can we understand what is required to end a life if we have not seen that moment when a human being becomes a corpse? The person who has experienced the greatest martial experiences and thought on them, necessarily has the greatest understanding. I am the first to admit that I lack first-hand experience in many areas of fighting and rely on others for their insights. I also hope I am not faced with many situations that some of my colleagues have survived.

Tom, may I ask again for you to relate some of your real-life fight experiences giving us the situation, the techniques and tactics you used and how you felt before, during and after the altercations?

Hi Doug,

Tom, may I ask again for you to relate some of your real-life fight
experiences giving us the situation, the techniques and tactics you used
and how you felt before, during and after the altercations?

Allright, if you like I will share some details ...
But it will not be nice to reed.
That I want to say first, ok?

There were some typical situations.
When I went home from a training session, there were some places better to avoid.
But ... if you were living in such a place you had no chance to avoid, right?
Ok ... I was a very young "adult" (18, 19), and I had some years of training in judo.
Outside the children groups, if you understand.
I did some competitons as usual but I never was interested in winning medals.
I had sometimes brawled against the typical jackals and I won.
Now the hard boiled boys had become attentive to me.
And so there were a lot of fights.
No, they did not want money or my jacket or such things.
They only want to make me cry, wanted to give me tons of pains and wanted to hear me begging.
That's all.
Nobody was interested what kind of injuries I would get.
There were no such thing like "fairplay".
The one evening the first guy stomped on me without a warning and i smashed his face with my elbow. Then I kicked him with knees and then I used my elbows and fists again and again.
That was it.
For this evening.

Next evening they waited. And came on me with two attackers.
Was hard and I had to swallow a lot.
But it was the same like in training was. I could move like on the mat, they could not pin me. Yes, I get fists and all this but i was able to deflect and to kick back. The one guy gave me some space after I hit him as hard as I could with flat hands and elbow.
Then I throw the other with O-Soto-Gari.
Then it was over.

By the way, no police came ...

If I would not have practised all these things again and again from age of 12 up (before this age we did not practise such things, we did "playing judo" as children) they would have finished me.

And they tried it again and again.
And every day I looked like a bloody meat lump.
No chance to avoid.

It needed more than a year to get accepted as a "really hard boiled guy".
And then other idiots came to test me.
And I had to prove.
And I did.

Years later I used the streetcar (tram?) as often I did.
And from nowhere a guy jumped on me with a knife in his hand, and he said I would have laughed over him.
Jesus, he really wanted to kill me! I can show you the scars ...
Was hard to get his hand. All was wet from my blood.
Did you ever tried to avoid a blade when all is red and wet and when you don't know how hard and deep this blade has stitched you?
Ok, I hit him with elbow, hit his throat but even then he tried to continue. I could hold his hand with the knife but it was impossible to disarm him. He was not a beginner with the knife.
At least I grabbed his throat with my other hand and gave him a good pressure.
That was enough.
Police came late as usual and told me later that he was wellknown for attacking people.

Think that should be enough for this time.
There are things everybody learns from such situations.
NEVER think your "usual" sport judo training would give you any benefit in such situations.
If you want to survive practise in training same things you will practise in case of emerency.
Learn to hit as hard as you can and practise that everyday.
Learn to kick same way.
Learn to throw as it was made for in the old ways! You have no chance to "get your grip" like you do in sport judo competiton.
No chance!
Learn to throw him "old fashioned". That is: learn to throw without a "sport grip", learn to throw flat an hard (you do not have the time to use "good looking" sport throws), learn to smash him without any hesitation.
Smash him! As long he can come up again you can't really throw!

Never think you will have a chance if the attacker has a knife and you are unarmed.
So use what you can get!
Best you will have a blade too.
I have it seen so often ... the guy takes a knife ... and I take a blade too.
Oooops ... game over. Very often this idiot won't attack either.

And learn this: reality is not to find on the sport judo mat!
In reality there is no such thing like "fair play"!
In reality is fighting was it is.
You will win or you will be a victim.
Sounds simply?
It is.

Learn this: isolated "techniques" won't help you.
You have to learn and to understand principles!
And you have to be able to go from using of one principle to the next if necessary.
Deflecting in judo has a basic principle.
Punching and kicking has a basic principle in judo.
Throwing in earnest has a basic principle in judo.
And you must learn and understand.
And you must (!) practise it with partners are not afraid when pain is coming. And it will come.
Practising without real pain is worthless. You lie to yourself.
And yes. you CAN use atemi in hard randori without killing your partner.
Hey - boxers can do that, Kyokushinka karateka can do that, Sanda fighters can do that, Sambo guys can do that, Muay Thai guys can do that ...
Why should judoka don't?

And learn this: If you hesitate in case of emergency you are dead.
In the sense of the word.

As the old Romans said: Periculum in mora.

Allright ...
Now I only can hope I have not brought here too much restlessness in the forum.
So far from me
Kindest regards
Tom

Thank you for those stories, Tom. Your stories sound a bit like our stories: if they are far away, avoid them; it they are close, hit / kick them hard; if they are close, throw them hard; and if they give you space, hit them some more.

My guess is that you, like me, have no time for 'knife defences'. I must have learned 30 different knife defences and, once I really learnt about knifework, I threw them all away. Most martial arts knife defences are pure fantasy! Unfortunately, six times out of ten, when we ask a highly-ranked ju-jitsuka to teach at a seminar they say, "I'll teach knife defences". Sadly, one world organisation I am involved in is considering a tanto division at the World Games. I said "Are you crazy? Are you seriously considering playing tag with a knife and think it will a) improve the competitors' skills or b) lend credibility to the organisation?"

What more can you tell us about those two first encounters, Tom? What was the build up before the attack? What words were exchanged, if any? What noise happened during the fight? What hits, to where, were most effective? What caused the fight to finish? How did you feel afterwards (immediately, later that day, a couple of days later)?