Newaza

JudoStu wrote:When I do Newaza randori I tend to favour being on my back with my opponent in-between my legs (in my guard). I was told last night that being on my back was a defensive position and not a good position to be in for Judo as there aren’t many attacks one can do from there. I’m sure those of you who also train BJJ would disagree with that but just wanted your opinions from a pure Judo point of view.

sodo lite wrote:This is the JUDO techniques forum kicking, punching, biting, scratching, tickling has NOTHING to do with judo so please keep this BS out of the judo techniques section.

Daniel D. wrote:

sodo lite wrote:This is the JUDO techniques forum kicking, punching, biting, scratching, tickling has NOTHING to do with judo so please keep this BS out of the judo techniques section.

Thank you for your concerns, but for some of us the atemi waza (punching and kicking) are a part of
judo which we still like to practice.
For a bit more information on atemi waza i'd like to refer you to the following thread: [url=https://judo.forumotion.com/t84-atemi-waza

Daniel D. wrote:

sodo lite wrote:This is the JUDO techniques forum kicking, punching, biting, scratching, tickling has NOTHING to do with judo so please keep this BS out of the judo techniques section.

Thank you for your concerns, but for some of us the atemi waza (punching and kicking) are a part of
judo which we still like to practice.
For a bit more information on atemi waza i'd like to refer you to the following thread: https://judo.forumotion.com/t84-atemi-waza

Hanon wrote:
Hi Daniel,

Welcome.

Hanon wrote:One cannot in the middle of randori break out into atemi waza. One cannot in the middle of the nage no kata all of a sudden as tori hit uke?

I am badly tying to illustrate that atemi waza are indeed an integral part of kodokan judo but like all the parts that come together to make the whole we have to practice what we do at an appropriate time under appropriate circumstances.

Hanon wrote:Pleased you like the atemi waza. Out of interest how do you learn and practice them in your dojo?

To know how and where to strike or kick is not sufficient for applying atemiwaza effectively as is the case in other tricks.
You
must first learn to move abaout freely and unrestrainedly by means of
the practice of other branches of jûdô in order to be able to apply
these tricks.

Even if you were able to hit any part of your enemy's body with
your hand or foot, it would not be effective, unless you are skilful in
striking, poking, and kicking.
Not only, therefore, you must learn where an how to hit and practice it, but also you must try to acquire skill in striking, poking and kicking by constant practice

Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
to think from time to time during ne-waza about
what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
(There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

We are in the techniques section of a JUDO forum

sodo lite wrote:

Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
to think from time to time during ne-waza about
what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
(There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

We are in the techniques section of a JUDO forum and NOT the bjj for wannabe's section, a judoka does not need to worry about striking and kicking neither in randori nor shai. Judo is a sport/art (physical education) and although the training gives more selfconfidence in dangerous situations and the techniques may be of some help it is not in itself a form of self defence, nor ws it ever meant to be. Where is JonZ when you need him?

Do you agree that Kano Jigoro as the FOUNDER of Kodokan Judo is the highest authority in judo?

Do you agree that only Kano is able to give a definition what judo is and what judo is not?

If you agree, I want to recommend reading the books I mentioned above.

You will find that Kano himself wrote a lot about atemi waza (i.e. the punching and kicking techniques of judo).
He wrote a lot about how to use, when to use ...

Did you read what Sakujiro Yokoyama wrote about how to practise atemi waza?
I cited it in my last posting.
Please read it.
Sakujiro Yokoyama wrote this in 1912 (the book was edited in 1915).
In 1912 Kano was living.
If Sakujiro Yokoyama would have written complete nonsens ... don't you think Kano Jigoro would have said something about this?

You maybe never will have practised atemi in your training.

Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
to think from time to time during ne-waza about
what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
(There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

Hanon wrote:Way of topic now and starting to replicate a thread that is already debating the use of Atemi in judo. With respects to al concerned if atemi are going to be debated perhaps the other thread is the most appropriate place for this debate?

Mike

sodo lite wrote:[Hi Fritz,
By the way, its interesting to hear the word "self confidence" in relation with judo by people like you very often...
The interesting question is where at hell this "self confidence" should come from?

Hanon wrote:

sodo lite wrote:[Hi Fritz,
By the way, its interesting to hear the word "self confidence" in relation with judo by people like you very often...
The interesting question is where at hell this "self confidence" should come from?

It comes with almost any sport/art that is taken seriously and trained in such away that you improve physical fitness, stamina and strength while also pushing you to or beyond your limits on a regular basis.
Judo does not have a momopoly on this.

atb
sodo
sodo

I agree that Kano was the founder of judo, after only 3 years martial
arts training overall, so how much of an expert would he have been?

I agree that Kano was the founder of judo, after only 3 years martial arts training overall, so how much of an expert would he have been?
Judo developed under Kano but he also hat very many other interests, business, political and sport whic suggest that althjough he loved judo it was not his be all and end all in life after Kano died judo developed much further and it is highly unlikely that he would now be consodered the highest authority.

Yokoyama came from a Tenjin Shinyo-ryu background

Not necessary to debate this.

However, I've got a question or two ...

If you do not recognize Kano as the highest authority of the judo, what you appeal then to?
Who may define according to your opinion what judo is?

There is a discussion about atemi here in this forum.
Take part and prove that there never was punches and kicks and similar things in judo.

Allright ...
With this setting you can simply explain everything for insignificant what has left by Kano about his judo .
Only to clear the road: Do you really try to tell me, that all the writings Kano had left about his judo are worthless and insignificant?

Nice idea.
No more necessary to read Kano's writings.
No more necessary to compare his words with the state of judo today.

Then even the biggest nonsense can be simply explained to the "advancement of the judo".
Without one would have to take anyhow on the consideration what understood Kano by judo.

Sorry, but this does not persuade me ...

Yokoyama came from a Tenjin Shinyo-ryu background

Why not? do you think that someone can become an expert in just 3 years?

Basically the Kodokan defines judo and judo developments, The IJF define competition rules. If Kano had lived to be 150 then yes he might still
be THE authority on judo but as things are now then no.

I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to protect gullible
beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock
Büllsh/t

Yes but Kano developed judo as a softened down version for sport
(physical education) purposes, people like Yokoyama were incorperated
(bribed) into Kodokan Judo to help establish it in Japan as the prefered
school sport against other ju jutsu systems like Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

I am trying to protect gullible beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock
Büllsh/t

tom herold wrote:Allright then ...
Let's see what we have.

Why not? do you think that someone can become an expert in just 3 years?

I will not debate Kano's knowledge.
You may claim he only would have had only 3 years of practise.
But he began at age of 17 and founded the Kodokan in 1882 at age of 22.
Five years.
And I am sure you know that Kano furthermore until 1885 was the student of Kito Ryu. In 1885 he earned the Menkyo from Kito Ryu as you know.
8 years then ...?

And yes, it is possible to become an expert in close quarter combat in "only" 5 years.
It may surprise you, but one of my own students begun 4 years ago and today he is a very successful competitor in grappling and mma.
He is now invited to Abu Dhabi ... maybe you know the level of the competitons there ...? More, he was last year invited as a teacher to teach grappling in Russia.
But this beside, I will not debate Kano's knowledge.
He and his students proved again and again their knowledge and their abilities as you know.
So its absolutely superflously trying to debate this.

Basically the Kodokan defines judo and judo developments, The IJF define competition rules. If Kano had lived to be 150 then yes he might still
be THE authority on judo but as things are now then no.

The Kodokan ...?
Hmmm ... let's see ...
As far as I know "the Kodokan" is always represented by persons, isn't it?
These persons are usually judo teachers with high dan ranks.
And as far as I know (my teacher knows a lot of them) these teachers permanent appeal to Kano.
More, they derive their authority in judo directly from him.

And the "IJF" ... no, I won't say anything about the IJF.
It is not my cup of tea.
Only this should be said: the IJF has awarded the authority to define what judo is to itself.

I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to protect gullible
beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock
Büllsh/t

Kano himself recommended to practise punching, kicking ...
And the "little" jointlocks were in normal judo until the early 1900's as you know.
Then this stuff was "banned" - from the training of children.

Our teacher Tokio Hirano showed such a lot of these things ...
Tons of films, photos ...
Ankle locks, toeholds, neck cranks, punches, kicks, stick work, sword ...
Maybe a sign of his lack of competence in judo?

Yes but Kano developed judo as a softened down version for sport
(physical education) purposes, people like Yokoyama were incorperated
(bribed) into Kodokan Judo to help establish it in Japan as the prefered
school sport against other ju jutsu systems like Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

Hm ...
Would you be so kind to show me the part of Kano's writings where he wrote exactly this?

I am trying to protect gullible beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock
Büllsh/t

Allright.
This is a really nice job.
So I only can wish you all the best and a lot of success.

Hanon wrote:

Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
to think from time to time during ne-waza about
what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
(There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

I think it then becomes MMA?

Fritz wrote:

Hanon wrote:

Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
to think from time to time during ne-waza about
what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
(There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

I think it then becomes MMA?

Hallo Mike,
is not Judo a good example of MMA? Did not Kano "mix" several martial arts together? ;-)

My point here was this:
Shiai ist part of Judo, to protect the participants there are rules, so some behaviours will be forbidden.
But what could be the reason, that shiai is necessary at the background,
that Kano spoke about the first level of Judo in terms of "defence against attack" and "fighting in earnest" - as we can read it in the atemi thread?
In my opinion shiai should be a safe "simulation" of the real fight.
But according to the restrictions by the rule set regarding the dangerous/unhealthy techniques now it will be possible to show behaviours which would be
"in real" perhaps deadly for oneself.
E.g. Being thrown done and going into turtle or flat on stomach position - according to the rules
- fine - referee stops fight and restarts - but in real? Okay i dont need to elaborate further, there are lots of cruel videos in the net...
For some of this "bad" (in context of reality) behaviours there are rules to condemn them but its a recursive problem and not for all situations its possible to have a rule...
So its our own responsibility what and how we train and teach.
For instance i try to teach my students to avoid the turtle and instead pulling guard if below... (emphasis is on "try" ;-) ) Maybe the turtling is a
typical german problem, i dont know...
My opinion is, if someone studies Judo seriously, then its necessary to think about the meaning and implications of rules, tactics, techniques
and so on.
And if some stuff would be dangerous for oneself if tried outside the safe dojo, then it could be no judo, because first level of judo is ...

And i have an anecdote:
Some time ago i wanted to show some transition from an Osae-Komi to something else - armlock or choke - i don't know anymore...
And i showed and talked about the keypoints and i was just saying: Take care about his (free) hand (or was it the knee?) it could be
dangerous to you if he would strike and wanted to show how to avoid the danger
- just in this moment my uke does the move (by accident) and i got headaches... ;-)

従前の柔術では重に勝負と云う事を其目的としてものだから、投げ技や固め技を修業すと同時に、当身技をも大に修業したものです。然し秘事と称して、容易に初心の者には伝授しなかったものです。然らば、秘密にしなければならぬ程害のあろものかというに、必ずしもさうではありません。只勝負術としては頗る有力なものですから、社会萬般における秘密伝授流行の余弊を受けて教える事を惜んだものと見えます。そんな訳ですから今日では少しも秘密にする必要のない許りでなく、広く世人の之を研究して、一層其進歩発達を謀ることは、斯道のため頗る有益なことと思います。

As the ju-jutsu of old was primarily a thing utilized in fighting, [one] matter-of-factly studied atemi-waza as well as throwing and ground-fighting. However, by necessity this was not something beginners was initiated in. This does by no means mean that it is something bad that must be kept a secret. Rather, as [atemi] is extremely potent as a tool in combat, one regrettably sees the evil throughout all things in society as due to the fashion of "secret teachings". For this reason, I believe that there is no need to keep it (atemi) a secret, but allow people of the world to research (i.e. learn, I guess) it, and that the progress which arises from it will be extremely beneficial.

柔道の目的は：
第一　身体の発育
第ニ　勝負術の熟達
第三　精神の修練
にあるのですが、修業上から名称を付けると、
第一　身体の発育を主とするものを練心法
第ニ　勝負術の熟達を主とするものを勝負法
第三　精神の修練を主とするものを修心法
と云います。

The goal of judo is:
- Physical growth and development of the body
- Mastery of competition techniques
- Training of the spirit
but expanding upon these, they become:
- a method of tempering the spirit for the development of the body
- a method of competition for the mastery of competition techniques
- a method of disciplining the spirit for training of the spirit

Allright then ...
Let's see what we have.

Why not? do you think that someone can become an expert in just 3 years?

I will not debate Kano's knowledge.

You may claim he only would have had only 3 years of practise.
But he began in age of 17 and founded the Kodokan in 1882 at age of 22.
Five years.

And
I am sure you know that Kano furthermore until 1885 was the student of
Kito Ryu. In 1885 he earned the Menkyo from Kito Ryu as you know.
8 years then ...?

And yes, it is possible to become an expert in close quarter combat in "only" 5 years.
It
may surprise you, but one of my own students begun 4 years ago and
today he is a very successful competitor in grappling and mma.

He is now invited to Abu Dhabi ... maybe you know the level of the competitons there ...?

But this beside, I will not debate Kano's knowledge.

He and his students proved again and again heir knowledge and their abilities as you know.
So its absolutely superflously to try to debate this.

The Kodokan ...?
Hmmm ... let's see ...
As far as I know "the Kodokan" is always represented by persons, isn't it?
These persons are usually judo teachers with high dan ranks.
And as far as I know (my teacher knows a lot of them) these teachers permanent appeal to Kano.
More still, they derive her authority in judo directly from him.

Kano himself recommended to practise punching, kicking ...
And the "little" jointlocks were in normal judo until the early 1900's as you know.
Then this stuff was "banned" - from the training of children.

Our teacher Tokio Hirano showed such a lot of these things ...
Tons of films, photos ...
Ankle locks, toeholds, neck cranks, punches, kicks, stick work, sword ...
Maybe a sign of his lack of competence in judo?

Hm ...
Would you be so kind to show me the part of Kano's writings where he wrote exactly this?