Deshi wrote: wdax wrote:As the title says: this is Taiho-jutsu. Taiho-jutsu is a police self-defence system, that was developed for the needs of police. Kodokan instructors were involved with the creation of the system, what doesn´t mean automatically, that it is Kodokan-Judo.
I don´like the term "old school judo", because it has a notion to be contrary to todays judo. Kodokan Judo is Kodokan Judo, there is no "old-" or "new-school" - only development and evolution. Quality in some aspects grows, in other it declines, but this would be a different discussion.
I don´t know, if you are familiar with Kodokan Goshinjutsu. Some of the techniques shown in the clip are taken from Kodokan Goshinjutsu or imported to it (I don´t know, when the clip was recorded, Kodokan Goshinjutsu was officially introduced 1956, so I don´t know what was first).
In the clip we see a lot of wristlocks (Kote-gaeshi and Kote-hineri) and combined locks against the elbow (Te-gatame) and the wrist (Kote-hineri). These were to the best of my knowledge imported into judo from Aikido via Tomiki.
But anyhow: the clip shows the practitical side of self-defence in a way, that was introduced into Kodokan-Judo at least during the mid 1950s.
I´m sure NBK can offer a lot more details on it.
I've at least seen several selfdefense themed Kodokan kata (Kime no Kata, Kodokan Goshin Jutsu, Mifunes version of the same, the Kime Shiki part of the "SZKTnK", Joshin Goshin Ho), but sometimes I wonder if there once was more than that. At times I've stumbled over rumors, single pictures, short clips that point towards lessons, that don't seem to be taught today anymore or only by very few. Somewhere I read about Judo atemi drills that are very similar to drills of FMA, there are old Judo books filled with selfdefense techniques not covered in the kata mentioned above (though they might stem from other styles, since the words "Judo" and "Jujutsu" were used in a very loose and interchangeable way).
In short: I wonder what they practiced at the Kodokan aside from the well covered "mainstream stuff" we know today.
Take a look at this clip for example (the Judo part starts around 00:25:20):
Judo in an old newsreel
(They added an index to the Judo part to 00:25:40, but you'll miss some interesting bits in the first seconds,
if you jump there).
afja_lm139 wrote:It is what we used do at regular Judo dojo practice in another life time. Would do it a few times a month weather we needed it or not
. As time passed atemi waza, Taiho Jutsu and kata were normal activities in Kodokan Judo. We even practiced ukami! Such a deal to learn out to defend oneself from another Judoka.
That is very interesting. When was that? What did the training look like? How "free" was it? Was "sparring" involved or "drills"? Was it formal kata training only?
Excuse my unknowingness, but what are "ukami" (assuming it's not another transcription for "ukemi")?
NBK wrote:Taihojutsu literally is 'arresting techniques'. The Tokyo Metropolitan Police developed a 'toridekata' early 1900's, calling it a judo kata. That evolved over the years but Taihojutsu was always taught by TMP senior police judo shihan or a specialist judoka. But it was not really considered judo per se, I think.
That changed in the 1940's when instruction shifted to the kendo division. There was one senior kendo instructor who apparently convinced someone that since weapons are involved that it should be theirs. the instructor was an interesting guy who had classic budo training; he introduced a complex kata based on some koryu that included takedowns against bo and naginata. It is now only performed by a couple of guys, one I know well, on ceremonial occasions.
Hosokawa sensei was apparently one of if not the last judoka to teach it; now it is taught by the jodo section of the kendo division. There's an entire set of protective clothing, masks, padded tanbo, jo, gloves etc. I can't find any judoka in the police that really practice it.
Frankly overall it seems to have gone the way of many combatives - overly watered down and under practiced. But its supporters note that some of the berserk knife wielding nut jobs that pop up periodically are taken down by some street cop who pulls out his collapsible baton and wades in.
Hosokawa sensei was close to my judo sensei, Sato Shizuya, the Sato noted in the notes on the video. He loved to practice this type of movement and incorporate it into his Nihon Jujutsu curriculum.
Very insightful. The more I learn, the more difficult it seems to me to make a clear distinction between Judo and its hybrid styles or related styles.
The Tokyo Metropolitan Police practiced Judo (after that famous contest between the Kodokan and a koryu school), didn't they? Wouldn't it be correct then, to say that the toridekata was Judo?
There is no such thing as lost judo, except for sometimes very first versions not having been preserved, such as some of the original kata. But even so, there were no secret techniques, or things that were are now missing. For some time it was suggested that gô-no-kata was such a lost kata. It isn't, and knowing it is not suddenly going to bless you with secret knowledge, as it is primitive judo, a development stage of judo. You will find now and then certain techniques that are no longer seen like tsuri-otoshi or uchi-guruma, but again to think that these are new, special techniques and that if you would know them you would have some secret, additional arsenal of techniques that could give you the victory, is nonsense. The reason they were ditched is because they were largely ineffective, or could be considered variations of other techniques, things like so many other variations you see in competition and that have no specific name and are rather chaotic.
There is no secret or additional judo or self-defense. You simply had most people in judo who cross-trained in koryu and who also kept training in those arts. When Japanese masters came to the West they often were still trained in other disciplines, or even more extreme, did not even know judo, but became part of Kanô's marketing tricks. Take someone as Koizumi. He did not even know any judo originally, but was promoted to second dan black belt by Kanô as part of getting people over to Kodokan to compete other arts away. Thus what these people additionally taught was not "other/additional judo", but simply there own art.
Training in judo was far more primitive in those days as is shown on original footage from the 1930s. There is nothing special. You ask what was trained, whether that was just kata or not ? If you had read many of the previous conversations (I do not mean this in a rude way, I am simply stating this as a neutral fact), then you would know that judo was delivered just in the way it was attended, that is, as: randori, kata, kôgi, and mondô. Take someone as Keiko Fukuda, often labelled as Kanô's last student. The idea that has been constructed by Westerners has nothing to do with reality. I asked Fukuda in person if she had actually been taught or received actual judo training from Kanô. The answer was 'no', he only stopped by now and then in the women's dojo. But ... and this is very important, there were quite a bit of conversations between Fukuda and Kanô. This was a integral part of "jûdô training", that was 'mondô', and it is clear especially from her first book and her teachings that there was a lot of authentic Kanô in there. This is precisely what an educattion is. Jûdô isn't the mere vocational stuff people most often do today. So, if any "extra training", then it's really just the part that modern day jûdôka won't have anything to do with anymore, the intellectual part, because that would force them to actually study rather than just have fun and fight and win medals.
If you know the historic Kanô you would also understand why there were no extra techniques. Even Mifune's attempts to add stuff were angrily blown off by Kanô, and Kanô was not pleased at all when visiting the UK and Koizumi thought he was being smart by showing Kanô some stuff he had wanted to add to jû-no-kata. So, no way. You will find in books like Uchida Ryôhei stuff that is not in current Kôdôkan jûdô, but it also never was. What you see is mostly the result of crosstrainig. There was massive cross-training betwee koryu schools such as Kito-ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo-ryu, Sosuishitsu-ryu, Takeuchi Santo-ryu, and the Kodokan.
Where it gets somewhat confusing, unless you are really versed in judo history and understand all the Japanese language nuances, towards the end of his life, Kanô wanted budô to be part of jûdô. This clearly views jûdô as something distinctively different from how most Westerners understand it who see jûdô, just like karatedô and aikidô as part of budô. Precisely because jûdô was meant as an education and not as 'just' a martial art it is, however, evident that it was meant as an encompassing concept.
I doubt that most people today would really be interested in learning jûdô the way Kanô meant it. Have you actually read some of the stuff he edited in Japanese ? You know what is in there ? Things that have nothing to do whatsoever with martial arts, things such as pages long explanation about how to write English sentences, discussions about certain plays by Shakespeare, etc. It's a school education, encompassing training towards increasing your intellectual level, and without ignoring your physical body, that's what it is. It's stuff that would require people to read books, discuss. What it is no, is all kinds of secret, additional ninja techniques or 1-inch punches that would make you invincible.
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