Anti Bowing in Judo Rhetoric

I stumbled upon this website today and was kind of taken back by the strong stance this guy makes when it comes to bowing.. he basically equates the requirement to jews being persecuted... Anyway what are peoples thoughts on this guy?

http://www.judochampions.com/bowing

PS sorry of this was posted on the old forum.

Ouch_that_hurts wrote:Anyway what are peoples thoughts on this guy?

He's a tool. If I had my way, I'd get rid of the handshake that is customary these days. I hate sloppy reiho.

Ouch_that_hurts wrote:I stumbled upon this website today and was kind of taken back by the strong stance this guy makes when it comes to bowing.. he basically equates the requirement to jews being persecuted... Anyway what are peoples thoughts on this guy?

http://www.judochampions.com/bowing

PS sorry of this was posted on the old forum.

I don't see how this merits any more discussion. It's old news, there was a huge lawsuit involving USA Judo et al. You can dig into if you have the gumption. There are topics over on the old judo forum about them/it/him. The lawsuit was finally settle/adjudicated ( I can't remember which).

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Ouch_that_hurts wrote:I stumbled
PS sorry of this was posted on the old forum.

I don't see how this merits any more discussion. It's old news, there was a huge lawsuit involving USA Judo et al. You can dig into if you have the gumption. There are topics over on the old judo forum about them/it/him. The lawsuit was finally settle/adjudicated ( I can't remember which).

Ergo the "Sorry if this was posted before".... anyways I was interested in people's thoughts more around the anti-traditional stance/judo is a sport, blah blah blah....

Judo is not a cult.

This has been hashed through a lot. I don't know about 'the guy' but someone made a mishmash of a lot of history and culture.

Bowing per se is not a Shinto ritual. Bowing as part of Japanese culture is included in Shinto ritual. You'll see bowing in many religions and certain cultures - it would be good not to confuse the two.

As far as blessing the car, I'd look at Catholic priests in Latin America - they do that all the time. Fishing boats, new stores, babies, you name it.

It seems to me the Bible quotes are taken out of context, but it is worth looking at them:

Deuteronomy 4.19 "And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them..."

Exodus 20.4-5 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them..."

The 'bowing' refers to worship, and the context is worshiping false idols. Bowing in judo is not part of a worship ceremony - there is no intent to worship. Conflating the two is simply misunderstanding both Japanese culture and the intent of the Bible passages, it seems to me.

Idol - An idol is an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion.
- Wiki (emphasis added)

I like the Miss Manners bit at the link above, but again, Japanese culture is different. Some years ago, I was very surprised to chance upon the Empress. I clumsily half bowed to her, but at the same time raised my right hand and sort of wiggled my fingers in a dumb sort of wave while still watching her (I did not expect anything like that and was surprised and embarrassed - shikata ga nai....)

She bowed in return, correctly and politely looking down (in fact, bowing more deeply than I) but also raised her hand to give a little wave back to me with a faint smile. Nice lady.

A common courtesy we exchanged on the street. Not an obeisance. If we were seated in seizai, the formal seated position, we would have exchanged seated bows and not thought anything of it, either.

And I believe that some folks complain about this without realizing what goes on in their own culture. Watch the body language of handshakes in America and the arcane signs of who is senior / superior / etc. Watch some pol like Bill Clinton work a crowd versus work someone he needs. The two handed grip, the slap on the back, a perfunctory grip while ignoring someone inferior, etc. There is a lot more positioning, gaming and posturing than most people ever realize. But you can immediately recognize it from a distance too far to make out individual faces.

A polite mutual bow is much more equal than a false handshake, I think, after decades of doing both.

In addition to what NBK has stated I point out that the issue has also been addressed by a number of scholars:

http://corpsetculture.revues.org/564 (sorry, this one is in French, but you can use Google Translate).

Also, Mr. Murata Naoki, curator of the Kôdôkan museum has addressed the issue at the International Budô Culture Symposium in Kagoshima, I believe in 2008, but I only have the article in Japanese. Additionally, colleague Professor David Matsumoto also gave a lecture about the topic. I have his in both English and Japanese and am attaching the English version for your interest:

HAHA Matsumoto sensei already has an article about this... HA! Ill have to ask him about it...thanks for the info!

Ouch_that_hurts wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Ouch_that_hurts wrote:I stumbled
PS sorry of this was posted on the old forum.

I don't see how this merits any more discussion. It's old news, there was a huge lawsuit involving USA Judo et al. You can dig into if you have the gumption. There are topics over on the old judo forum about them/it/him. The lawsuit was finally settle/adjudicated ( I can't remember which).

Ergo the "Sorry if this was posted before".... anyways I was interested in people's thoughts more around the anti-traditional stance/judo is a sport, blah blah blah....

By all means carry on, my opinion is only that.

As many say, this is not really an interesting discussion. It is nothing new that religions try to limit their adherents from doing stuff, or joining other activities. It is part of their reason for being. However, the bow is a ubiquitous sign of courtesy in almost all cultures. You bow to the lady when you ask her to dance, you bow again to thank her. You bow to your betters (in countries where they exist), and generally they bow in return. As the author writes, bowing is an integral part of: Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Shinto and many other religions precisely because it is such a clear sign of courtesy and humility. I get the feeling that it is the latter that scares our author. He believes humility lessens and weakens you.

You can of course refuse to bow at anything but your chosen deity, but that does not mean that you would be considered properly courteous if you were not to bow at a formal dance. Of course, if you believe your faith prohibits you from bowing at judo, it probably prohibits you from dancing as well.

This dude would really struggle with sumo, the shinto rituals etc

Absolute perfect timing Ouch That Hurts and I appreciate the responses. A couple of weeks ago I brought a good friend who is Christian to the judo club. He and a couple of his friends are interested in judo but they did a near 180 when the bow seemed important. Buddy came anyway and says he didnt bow when others did and said he enjoyed the class but not the bowing.

I assure you that he isnt a Christian that is extreme in anyway except that when you get him to try certain things.lol He's the compassion supercedes everything type, but not the bowing.lol

I will send him this thread.

Appreciated.

Q mystic wrote:Absolute perfect timing Ouch That Hurts and I appreciate the responses. A couple of weeks ago I brought a good friend who is Christian to the judo club. He and a couple of his friends are interested in judo but they did a near 180 when the bow seemed important. Buddy came anyway and says he didnt bow when others did and said he enjoyed the class but not the bowing.

I assure you that he isnt a Christian that is extreme in anyway except that when you get him to try certain things.lol He's the compassion supercedes everything type, but not the bowing.lol

I will send him this thread.

Appreciated.

Ha no problem! Glad I could help... I am very "secular" (I wont get into labels here) but its just hard for me to understand the issue... ergo asking the community at large!

Ouch_that_hurts wrote:

Q mystic wrote:Absolute perfect timing Ouch That Hurts and I appreciate the responses. A couple of weeks ago I brought a good friend who is Christian to the judo club. He and a couple of his friends are interested in judo but they did a near 180 when the bow seemed important. Buddy came anyway and says he didnt bow when others did and said he enjoyed the class but not the bowing.

I assure you that he isnt a Christian that is extreme in anyway except that when you get him to try certain things.lol He's the compassion supercedes everything type, but not the bowing.lol

I will send him this thread.

Appreciated.

Ha no problem! Glad I could help... I am very "secular" (I wont get into labels here) but its just hard for me to understand the issue... ergo asking the community at large!

I hear you. He's a decent guy who's 27 with heavy but decent christian upbringing and after 27 years I can kinda see his veiwpoint, if he didn't read more about it. I could only tell him it was pretty convincing that it wasn't about worship. I was going to look it up on judoforum but havent got around to it and you guys made a nice concise thread here I think. Thanks.

Of course, his version of 'bow' might supercede the norm so I might just keep on burying him until I'm 70.lol He isnt going to get a chip of numbers put in his arm either.lol

I don't have a problem with bowing - I don't mind if it has religious origins.

I worship my sensei.

John Holmes is in my back yard I know him well he is exactly what he sounds like a goof ball, the dojo looks like a garage sale. That being said I talk to him every time I see him and kind of like the guy.

Dave R. wrote:I worship my sensei.

Am I your Sensei??

I quite often, in particular at the beginning of the kids classes when parents are present, I briefly go over of some facts and terms using in Judo and to avoid confusion and misunderstanding, I explain that we bow in Judo to show respect to each other. I keep it short and simple. I don't have a Kano's picture on my wall.
Yes, I had some people asking me if this bowing thing has religion connection from time to time.

judoratt wrote:John Holmes is in my back yard I know him well he is exactly what he sounds like a goof ball, the dojo looks like a garage sale. That being said I talk to him every time I see him and kind of like the guy.

One of my favourite things about judo is meeting likable goofballs.

[quote="jkw"]

judoratt wrote:John Holmes is in my back yard I know him well he is exactly what he sounds like a goof ball, the dojo looks like a garage sale. That being said I talk to him every time I see him and kind of like the guy.

One of my favourite things about judo is meeting likable goofballs.[quote]

If you can put up with me, I could fill that criteria.

how about bowing to picture of Kano?
i was looking this up today, and that's how i discovered that the old JF is no more.

i am presuming, people started doing this after he passed away.
how did people start their training before Kano passed away?
and must we bow to Kano now, before and after class?

contrarian wrote:how about bowing to picture of Kano?
i was looking this up today, and that's how i discovered that the old JF is no more.

i am presuming, people started doing this after he passed away.
how did people start their training before Kano passed away?
and must we bow to Kano now, before and after class?

There is no rule that says you need to bow to Kano.

A more pertinent question would be how Kano bowed to himself? A mirror hastily deployed whenever he attended training?

Michael-H wrote:As many say, this is not really an interesting discussion. It is nothing new that religions try to limit their adherents from doing stuff, or joining other activities. It is part of their reason for being. However, the bow is a ubiquitous sign of courtesy in almost all cultures. You bow to the lady when you ask her to dance, you bow again to thank her. You bow to your betters (in countries where they exist), and generally they bow in return. As the author writes, bowing is an integral part of: Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Shinto and many other religions precisely because it is such a clear sign of courtesy and humility. I get the feeling that it is the latter that scares our author. He believes humility lessens and weakens you.

You can of course refuse to bow at anything but your chosen deity, but that does not mean that you would be considered properly courteous if you were not to bow at a formal dance. Of course, if you believe your faith prohibits you from bowing at judo, it probably prohibits you from dancing as well.

Not to mention throwing people around the floor, arm locking them, strangling them and punching and kicking a persons vital points etc, and all this while wearing pyjamas! Sounds awful to me.

There will always be those who deliberately twist the decent honest open good intentions of mankind to make of them some thing they are not. The question should be what is THEIR agenda not what is ours.

Rei,

Mike

judoratt

There is no rule that says you need to bow to Kano.

So, in other words, you would not bow to the portrait of Kano in a Japanese dojo? I wonder how long you would last there.
Just kidding, or, maybe not...

In general, though... Bowing does make less of you and the people who expect you to bow know this. Nobody is naturally as humble as some sensei expect you to be. So generally, while it is probably a good idea to follow the etiquette when there is no choice, if someone has to bow it is probably better to have others bow to you more deeply. Next time somebody you dislike asks you to bow, just nod your head. Then, if they show their true face (or their tail, rather...) and decide they want to fight over this, be prepared.