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    What's the history of Go-No-Sen-no-Kata?

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    Post by Stevens Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:38 pm

    I read a lot at this forum (and the old one) about Go-No-Sen-no-Kata, but i don't got further back than the book of Kawaishi (the seven kata).
    The book says: It's created at the Waseda university around 1917. For me personaly is his book the standard of this kata, but i perform it the way the national body wants to see it. What i want to know: is older knowledge in books or articles? Did Kawaishi change things bringing it to Europe/France? Is his book the original of the Waseda?

    (At youtube are beautiful performances like the way Kawaishi describes this kata.) I wonder if his son is still using and performing it the way his father did?

    Kawaishi (born 1899) studied at Waseda?????

    He studied also at the Busen (Busen startet 1911)???.

    He was a third dan when he graduated at the busen, but were and when did he learn all the kata?
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    Post by NBK Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:42 am

    Yes - what is the origin of this kata?

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    Post by fredlinux Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:42 am


    Kawaishi's The complete seven katas of judo, page 11:

    "The 3rd Kata, Gonosen-no-Kata, or Kata of standing counters, specially practised at Waseda University, of which I have been a member;"
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    Post by Stevens Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:51 am

    fredlinux wrote:
    Kawaishi's The complete seven katas of judo, page 11:

    "The 3rd Kata, Gonosen-no-Kata, or Kata of standing counters, specially practised at Waseda University, of which I have been a member;"

    You've been a member! What can you tell more than what's in the book of Kawaishi about the history of this kata?
    Who made it? Why was it made? When was it made? Is there a Waseda renraku/renzoku kata? Is it still used at the Waseda?
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    Post by Jonesy Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:24 am

    It is Kawaishi who was a member - NOT fredlinux. fredlinux was quoting from Kawaishi's book - hence the page reference and the "....".
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:54 am

    Stevens wrote:
    fredlinux wrote:
    Kawaishi's The complete seven katas of judo, page 11:

    "The 3rd Kata, Gonosen-no-Kata, or Kata of standing counters, specially practised at Waseda University, of which I have been a member;"

    You've been a member! What can you tell more than what's in the book of Kawaishi about the history of this kata?
    Who made it? Why was it made? When was it made? Is there a Waseda renraku/renzoku kata? Is it still used at the Waseda?

    Besides the information kindly provided by fredlinux not much other information on this kata is contained in most books. It is also not known why details are lacking.

    The data most often associated with the creation of Gonosen-no-kata is 1910. Waseda University used to be called Tôkyô Senmon Gakkô. The involvement of Mifune in the creation of the kata has regularly been suggested, but it is unclear why Mifune himself seems to have avoided elaborating about it. It is possible though. Mifune himself, I believe in 1904, entered Keiô University to study economy, and by 1910 he was a godan. He would become 6th dan in 1912, I believe. Starting in 1910 Mifune became a jûdô instructor to several universities in Tôkyô and he also instructed at Waseda. So, the statement that it was composed by instructors of Waseda, would likely have included him. Moreover, Mifune's involvment in the creation of jûdô kata is well known, as he was involved in the creation of at least 5 other jûdô kata (the Joshi jûdô goshinhô, Kôdôkan goshinjutsu, his own goshinjutsu, the Nage-no-kata ura-waza, and the Katame-no-kata ura-waza completed by Itô Kazuo). So, Gonosen-no-kata as one of his early experiments I can certainly see, in particular since his Nage-no-kata-ura-waza clearly is a more refined and dynamic version of it expanded to 15 throws divided over three series to some extent following the order of Nage-no-kata non-sutemi-waza.
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    Post by Jonesy Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:17 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Besides the information kindly provided by fredlinux not much other information on this kata is contained in most books. It is also not known why details are lacking.

    The data most often associated with the creation of Gonosen-no-kata is 1910. Waseda University used to be called Tôkyô Senmon Gakkô. The involvement of Mifune in the creation of the kata has regularly been suggested, but it is unclear why Mifune himself seems to have avoided elaborating about it. It is possible though. Mifune himself, I believe in 1904, entered Keiô University to study economy, and by 1910 he was a godan. He would become 6th dan in 1912, I believe. Starting in 1910 Mifune became a jûdô instructor to several universities in Tôkyô and he also instructed at Waseda. So, the statement that it was composed by instructors of Waseda, would likely have included him. Moreover, Mifune's involvment in the creation of jûdô kata is well known, as he was involved in the creation of at least 5 other jûdô kata (the Joshi jûdô goshinhô, Kôdôkan goshinjutsu, his own goshinjutsu, the Nage-no-kata ura-waza, and the Katame-no-kata ura-waza completed by Itô Kazuo). So, Gonosen-no-kata as one of his early experiments I can certainly see, in particular since his Nage-no-kata-ura-waza clearly is a more refined and dynamic version of it expanded to 15 throws divided over three series to some extent following the order of Nage-no-kata non-sutemi-waza.
    I have seen somewhere the date 1917 for the creation of the Gonosen-no-kata. Also, in Otaki and Draeger's book - "Judo Formal Techniques" there is a brief mention of the Nage-Ura Waza no Kata and they state that Gonosen no kata is an alternative name for this kata.
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    Post by wdax Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:04 pm

    Meanwhile I think, this is more a lingusitik problem then anything else. Japanese language has no different forms for singular and plural, so gonosen-no-kata can refers a single form of a countertechnique (f.ex. o-soto-gaeshi is a gonosen-no-kata) or it can refers to a group of countertechniques (f. ex. uchi-mata-sukashi and tsubame-geashi are two gonosen-no-kata) or it can refers to the well known set of countertechnique ("the" gonosen-no-kata compiled of 12 single gonosen-no-kata).

    When researching the origins and creation of gonosen-no-kata, we must ask two things: who explored the (individual) techniques and who compiled them to the set of 12 we know today as Gonosen-no-Kata.

    Counter-throws were historically developed after randori became more and more popular. Many different ways of countering were explored by many judoka. Around 1920 there was a series of article published in one of the judo-magazines about - I think - 20 or so counter-throws and I´m sure, there were much more.

    I think a lot of people developed these individual techniques and some compiled them to the well known sets we today refer to as gonosen-no-kata, kaeshi-no-kata etc.

    Again we have the topic "creation" vs "complíling" :-)
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    Post by Jonesy Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:04 pm

    I have now accessed my library. In a discussionon non-Kotokan kata, Otaki and Dreager write (Judo Formal Techniques, pp.33):

    “…Perhaps the best know example is the Nage Ura no Kata (known also as the Go-no-Sen no Kata), or “Forms of Counterthrowing”, originally developed by the legendary Kyuzo Mifune, a late tenth-dan master teacher of the Kodokan. Other Gon-no-sen no Kata exist, however, and have sound training value; judoists should make eevry effort to become familiar with them and thereby add to their Judo knowledge. It is beyond the scope of this book, however, to deal technically with them. (…)”
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    Post by Stevens Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:44 pm

    Jonesy wrote:It is Kawaishi who was a member - NOT fredlinux.  fredlinux was quoting from Kawaishi's book - hence the page reference and the "....".

    True, i was so happy to read somebody was a member, that i stopped thinking........................
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:09 am

    wdax wrote:Meanwhile I think, this is more a lingusitik problem then anything else. Japanese language has no different forms for singular and plural, so gonosen-no-kata can refers a single form of a countertechnique (f.ex. o-soto-gaeshi is a gonosen-no-kata) or it can refers to a group of countertechniques (f. ex. uchi-mata-sukashi and tsubame-geashi are two gonosen-no-kata) or it can refers to the well known set of countertechnique ("the" gonosen-no-kata compiled of 12 single gonosen-no-kata).

    When researching the origins and creation of gonosen-no-kata, we must ask two things: who explored the (individual) techniques and who compiled them to the set of 12 we know today as Gonosen-no-Kata.

    Counter-throws were historically developed after randori became more and more popular. Many different ways of countering were explored by many judoka. Around 1920 there was a series of article published in one of the judo-magazines about - I think - 20 or so counter-throws and I´m sure, there were much more.

    I think a lot of people developed these individual techniques and some compiled them to the well known sets we today refer to as gonosen-no-kata, kaeshi-no-kata etc.

    Again we have the topic "creation" vs "compíling" :-)

    I think that people mean "compiling". Go-no-sen-no-kata clearly is a primitive set of techniques. They are not sophisticated, and they are basic one throw + another. There isn't much original thought in it. Any decent jûdôka at yodan level could compose something like Go-no-sen-no-kata: ô-soto-gari + ô-soto-gari, hiza-guruma + hiza-guruma, are performed upon simple resisting, not much indication of advanced transitions in kuzushi or displacement. Nage-no-kata-ura-waza is clearly much more refined; it contains 'opportunities' that are not so self-evident. This suggests that Go-no-sen-no-kata was created by jûdôka with either less deep insights than Mifune or Kanô, or were compiled by someone like them while still at a much more novice level.

    However, I have never seen a "primary source" on go-no-sen-no-kata. Not that it does not exist, but I simply think that no one (with the necessary background) really has been interested enough in it to properly research it. The idea has been on my table for a while, but I have not furthered it, as I am not convinced I can satisfactorily solve the conundrum. Where should one start to look ? It isn't like Waseda has some closet labelled "old original jûdô documents that contain everything but that no one is interested in". After all, there are many things that I wrote or made or conceived when I was in my first or second year of university, which is far less long ago than 1910 or 1917 and which obviously the university would not know anything about, and of which I would have nothing left having long thrown these things away as they have no significant meaning for anything.

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    Post by Stevens Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:33 am

    Stevens wrote:I read a lot at this forum (and the old one) about Go-No-Sen-no-Kata, but i don't got further back  than the book of Kawaishi (the seven kata).
    The book says: It's created at the Waseda university around 1917. For me personaly is his book the standard of this kata, but i perform it the way the national body wants to see it. What i want to know: is older knowledge in books or articles? Did Kawaishi change things bringing it to Europe/France? Is his book the original of the Waseda?

    (At youtube are beautiful performances like the way Kawaishi describes this kata.) I wonder if his son is still using and performing it the way his father did?

    Kawaishi (born 1899) studied at Waseda?????

    He studied also at the Busen (Busen startet 1911)???.

    He was a third dan when he graduated at the busen, but were and when did he learn all the kata?

    I picked up a story of S. Yokoyama being the constructor of the Go no Sen no Kata. He was a member of the yakuza and that's why Kano couldn't use it for kodokan judo.
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:44 am

    Stevens wrote:
    Stevens wrote:I read a lot at this forum (and the old one) about Go-No-Sen-no-Kata, but i don't got further back  than the book of Kawaishi (the seven kata).
    The book says: It's created at the Waseda university around 1917. For me personaly is his book the standard of this kata, but i perform it the way the national body wants to see it. What i want to know: is older knowledge in books or articles? Did Kawaishi change things bringing it to Europe/France? Is his book the original of the Waseda?

    (At youtube are beautiful performances like the way Kawaishi describes this kata.) I wonder if his son is still using and performing it the way his father did?

    Kawaishi (born 1899) studied at Waseda?????

    He studied also at the Busen (Busen startet 1911)???.

    He was a third dan when he graduated at the busen, but were and when did he learn all the kata?

    I picked up a story of S. Yokoyama being the constructor of the Go no Sen no Kata. He was a member of the yakuza and that's why Kano couldn't use it for kodokan judo.

    I think that this is highly unlikely (euphemism for 'bollocks'), if not, impossible.

    1. As far as I can recall, Yokoyama does not mention Go-no-sen-no-kata in his own book (1908).
    2. Dates of creation of Go-no-sen-no-kata are typically 1910 or 1917, but Yokoyama was already dead by 1912; the poor guy only was 48 years old when he died.
    3. With his training in Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû and Daitô-ryû I would expect something more sophisticated if he were the creator.
    4. What would be his relationship with Waseda University ?
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    Post by Stevens Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:04 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:
    Stevens wrote:I read a lot at this forum (and the old one) about Go-No-Sen-no-Kata, but i don't got further back  than the book of Kawaishi (the seven kata).
    The book says: It's created at the Waseda university around 1917. For me personaly is his book the standard of this kata, but i perform it the way the national body wants to see it. What i want to know: is older knowledge in books or articles? Did Kawaishi change things bringing it to Europe/France? Is his book the original of the Waseda?

    (At youtube are beautiful performances like the way Kawaishi describes this kata.) I wonder if his son is still using and performing it the way his father did?

    Kawaishi (born 1899) studied at Waseda?????

    He studied also at the Busen (Busen startet 1911)???.

    He was a third dan when he graduated at the busen, but were and when did he learn all the kata?

    I picked up a story of S. Yokoyama being the constructor of the Go no Sen no Kata. He was a member of the yakuza and that's why Kano couldn't use it for kodokan judo.

    I think that this is highly unlikely (euphemism for 'bollocks'), if not, impossible.

    1. As far as I can recall, Yokoyama does not mention Go-no-sen-no-kata in his own book (1908).
    2. Dates of creation of Go-no-sen-no-kata are typically 1910 or 1917, but Yokoyama was already dead by 1912; the poor guy only was 48 years old when he died.
    3. With his training in Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû and Daitô-ryû I would expect something more sophisticated if he were the creator.
    4. What would be his relationship with Waseda University ?

    I heard that last year questions are asked to Takahashi sensei and Yano sensei. This year, march, only Yano sensei was back in Holland and he must have said these things. After the question last year both sensei went back home and must have done some investigestions. I just picked up these things by listening to some Dutch judomasters on the tatami.
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    Post by Jonesy Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:17 pm

    Stevens wrote:
    I heard that last year questions are asked to Takahashi sensei and Yano sensei. This year, march, only Yano sensei was back in Holland and he must have said these things. After the question last year both sensei went back home and must have done some investigestions. I just picked up these things by listening to some Dutch judomasters on the tatami.
    I am afraid that I would not believe a word that comes out of the Netherlands on the historical origins of judo kata.

    Witness the embarrassment of Jan Muilwijk's Go-no-kata, the so-called "Busen standard" and also the recent debate about how to say "hands up" in Japanese in the Kodokan goshinjutsu. All of these have the Netherlands as a common denominator. There is a long way to go before credibility is restored.
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    Post by Stevens Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:56 pm

    Jonesy wrote:
    Stevens wrote:
    I heard that last year questions are asked to Takahashi sensei and Yano sensei. This year, march, only Yano sensei was back in Holland and he must have said these things. After the question last year both sensei went back home and must have done some investigestions. I just picked up these things by listening to some Dutch judomasters on the tatami.
    I am afraid that I would not believe a word that comes out of the Netherlands on the historical origins of judo kata.

    Witness the embarrassment of Jan Muilwijk's Go-no-kata, the so-called "Busen standard" and also the recent debate about how to say "hands up" in Japanese in the Kodokan goshinjutsu. All of these have the Netherlands as a common denominator.  There is a long way to go before credibility is restored.

    I understand, but when you know Muilwijk sensei, you'll find out he's a real budoka! He only made a book by the knowledge of that time. When you read his book you'll find out he's writing that he's still studying on the subject.
    About the Busen i can say that it is saying something of our Dutch Federation and the power of de Korte sensei.
    I see the debate about "hands up" as studying with the help of all our friends on this forum.

    About Yokoyama and "Go no Sen no Kata" i only think that there must be more info than only from books. We all know that lots of info is given by mouth
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    Post by Jonesy Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:22 pm

    Stevens wrote:
    I understand, but when you know Muilwijk sensei, you'll find out he's a real budoka! He only made a book by the knowledge of that time. When you read his book you'll find out he's writing that he's still studying on the subject.
    I gave the book and he does indeed say he is studying the subject. However, if one had done any sort of research one would have quickly concluded that the Go-no-kata he devoted an entire book to was totally fake and a construct of George Parulski in the US. To get a 10 dan - the late Anton Geesink - to write an endorsement too was a huge mistake.

    Stevens wrote:
    About the Busen i can say that it is saying something of our Dutch Federation and the power of de Korte sensei.
    That then raises serious questions about the credibility of an organisation that promotes such a veiw

    Stevens wrote:
    I see the debate about "hands up" as studying with the help of all our friends on this forum.
    Yes, but how did the Dutch sensei get so confused on this issue?
    Stevens wrote:
    About Yokoyama and "Go no Sen no Kata" i only think that there must be more info than only from books. We all know that lots of info is given by mouth
    You would need to go to Japan and waseda University itself to get to the bottom of this methinks. There is not a single book I know of in Japanese that has the Gonosen-no-kata in it, not a single demonstration on YouTube not performed by a European, and no prominent Japanese sensei that regularly performs the kata. why is this so?
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    Post by Stevens Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:42 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Stevens wrote:
    I understand, but when you know Muilwijk sensei, you'll find out he's a real budoka! He only made a book by the knowledge of that time. When you read his book you'll find out he's writing that he's still studying on the subject.
    I gave the book and he does indeed say he is studying the subject.  However, if one had done any sort of research one would have quickly concluded that the Go-no-kata he devoted an entire book to was totally fake and a construct of George Parulski in the US.  To get a 10 dan - the late Anton Geesink - to write an endorsement too was a huge mistake.

    I read somewere: Even masters make mistakes (was it a huge mistake?)

    Stevens wrote:
    About the Busen i can say that it is saying something of our Dutch Federation and the power of de Korte sensei.
    That then raises serious questions about the credibility of an organisation that promotes such a veiw

    True, but what choice do we have? I'm a member and try to use the good bits of the federation.

    Stevens wrote:
    I see the debate about "hands up" as studying with the help of all our friends on this forum.
    Yes, but how did the Dutch sensei get so confused on this issue?
    How many judoka (kodansha) study judo?
    Stevens wrote:
    About Yokoyama and "Go no Sen no Kata" i only think that there must be more info than only from books. We all know that lots of info is given by mouth
    You would need to go to Japan and waseda University itself to get to the bottom of this methinks.  There is not a single book I know of in Japanese that has the Gonosen-no-kata in it, not a single demonstration on YouTube not performed by a European, and no prominent Japanese sensei that regularly performs the kata.  why is this so?

    All true, but who knows, maybe there's a group like Osiais'? For years we didn't know the truth and history of the Go no Kata.
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    Post by wdax Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:04 am

    Stevens wrote:All true, but who knows, maybe there's a group like Osiais'? For years we didn't know the truth and history of the Go no Kata.

    Not really. Some weeks ago I saw a very detailed description of Go-no-Kata in a japanese book about judo-kata, which appeared somewhere in the 1950s or so (I´m sure CK knows, which book I´m talking about). So those, who did really research on judo, could have easy access to information about Go-no-Kata. A more or less simple question to ask the Kodokan library....
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:07 am

    Stevens wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    Stevens wrote:
    I heard that last year questions are asked to Takahashi sensei and Yano sensei. This year, march, only Yano sensei was back in Holland and he must have said these things. After the question last year both sensei went back home and must have done some investigestions. I just picked up these things by listening to some Dutch judomasters on the tatami.
    I am afraid that I would not believe a word that comes out of the Netherlands on the historical origins of judo kata.

    Witness the embarrassment of Jan Muilwijk's Go-no-kata, the so-called "Busen standard" and also the recent debate about how to say "hands up" in Japanese in the Kodokan goshinjutsu. All of these have the Netherlands as a common denominator.  There is a long way to go before credibility is restored.

    I understand, but when you know Muilwijk sensei, you'll find out he's a real budoka! He only made a book by the knowledge of that time. When you read his book you'll find out he's writing that he's still studying on the subject.

    I think it would be best for everybody to avoid publicly talking about other living people, unless they are public people (e.g. politicians, famous sports or movie stars).

    About the book (= an object, not a person) there were two main issues that have a very significant effect on the quality of any book:

    - Sources. Not a single historic Japanese written or other primary source was used for a book that essentially is about a historic Japanese phenomenon. It's a bit the same as writing a book about Dutch windmills or cheese without visiting a single Dutch windmill or cheese factory and based only on recent books about Holland written in, let's say, Portuguese by people who have never been to Holland, nor have any professional formation in history or architecture, engineering, or nutrition.

    - The second main problem was that the book was written in what is called a "teleological" way; "teleological", not "theological". This is a typical thing for people "doing research" who have never had proper research training. It means that someone starts with a conclusion which usually is given in by some personal belief, and then assembles things that fit into that a priori defined conclusion. It is something that is unfortunately rather prevalent in jûdô and that we also see when random people start (what they call) "investigating" whether someone really holds this or that dan-rank he claims, in particular when it is from a different federation. Usually, such "investigations" are guided by a personal dislike for an individual, chitty-chat with other similar people lacking the training, knowledge and objectivity to do such research, then serves to "proof" the conclusion they had already established before they started. Proper research obviously requires no a priori established conclusion, but a research design, a definition and acknowledgement of the limitations and delimitations of the research methods one will be using, a collection of sources and recording the results, analyzing those results, comparing those results with previous outcomes in the light of the limitations of the study, and discussion and conclusions that on the basis of the results arrived at should allow to accept or reject one's hypothesis.

    In this case, the author(s) were warned beforehand about the major weaknesses of their plan, but instead of a willingness to consult or learn from those having that expertise, they angrily reacted that they would soon publish their book. In other words, the actual act of publishing, was far more important that the solidity and veracity of its contents. This is very sad, but also very typical in the world of jûdô where after the death of Kanô jûdô became sportified with an increasing dislike for the intellectual goals of jûdô; let's not forget that Kanô explicitly defined education as the highest goal, with the overall goal of jûdô (so also of the mental, physical and moral pillars) being intellectual development. One of the major mechanics in jûdô that has helped achieved this travesty is the dan-rank system and the power that comes with that. In jûdô today the highest dan-rank (and thus the highest power) is always correct, no matter how nonsensical what he or she might claim. This is no surprise since the standards on which the dan-rank, especially the highest dan-ranks, is awarded has nothing to do anymore with 'knowledge', and is a combination of politics, a logical consequence because someone has been X-number or years in a previous rank, and that absence of sufficiently knowledge in those having to do the assessment to assess whether the person seeking the higher rank has such knowledge; even the term knowledge is then reduced to mere mechanical performance in the absence of virtually anyone possessing that what is necessary to assess anything beyond that.
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:34 am

    wdax wrote:
    Stevens wrote:All true, but who knows, maybe there's a group like Osiais'? For years we didn't know the truth and history of the Go no Kata.

    Not really. Some weeks ago I saw a very detailed description of Go-no-Kata in a japanese book about judo-kata, which appeared somewhere in the 1950s or so (I´m sure CK knows, which book I´m talking about). So those, who did really research on judo, could have easy access to information about Go-no-Kata. A more or less simple question to ask the Kodokan library....

    One has to bear in mind that something is not easy when one does not know the source at a certain point even if it exists. It's a bit like what is happening with the missing Malaysia Airlines plane; we all know it exists, but they can't find it, but if one would know what the exact GPS coordinates are of it, then it is no longer a difficulty and the only difficulty then becomes a mechanical one, i.e. retrieving it.

    Actually in those days the Kôdôkan explicitly denied the existence of gô-no-kata. I had these conversations myself with all three current 10th dan-holders and the Kôdôkan library. The knowledge that once existed in the Kôdôkan Library sadly disappeared with the decease of Oimatsu Shin'ichi, who was a professor with a PhD and proper research training, and where the quality of his work speaks for itself. Those days are sadly long gone and what is left is a dump, where politics and suppression of data that do not fit the politics rule. The Kôdôkan, with as source of contact the library, until 2008 flatly denied the existence of gô-no-kata and during a conversation I had in 2008  --I think-- I was explained as to why I could not write or publish anything about gô-no-kata in the upcoming volume of the Bulletin of Scientific Studies of the Kôdôkan. Two of the 10th dan-holders told me they had never heard the term gô-no-kata and presumed that it was go-no-kata, i.e. the on-reading of 五, the kanji for five, of which the kun-reading is itsutsu. The only person who knew about gô-no-kata was evidently Daigo-sensei, which is no surprise as the is the only one left at the Kôdôkan with expert knowledge that goes beyond the mere mechanics of jûdô techniques, but he referred to Ochiai-sensei.

    There is more to tell about this, but I am going to keep it decent.
    fredlinux
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    Post by fredlinux Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:59 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    wdax wrote:
    Stevens wrote:All true, but who knows, maybe there's a group like Osiais'? For years we didn't know the truth and history of the Go no Kata.

    Not really. Some weeks ago I saw a very detailed description of Go-no-Kata in a japanese book about judo-kata, which appeared somewhere in the 1950s or so (I´m sure CK knows, which book I´m talking about). So those, who did really research on judo, could have easy access to information about Go-no-Kata. A more or less simple question to ask the Kodokan library....

    One has to bear in mind that something is not easy when one does not know the source at a certain point even if it exists. It's a bit like what is happening with the missing Malaysia Airlines plane; we all know it exists, but they can't find it, but if one would know what the exact GPS coordinates are of it, then it is no longer a difficulty and the only difficulty then becomes a mechanical one, i.e. retrieving it.

    Actually in those days the Kôdôkan explicitly denied the existence of gô-no-kata. I had these conversations myself with all three current 10th dan-holders and the Kôdôkan library. The knowledge that once existed in the Kôdôkan Library sadly disappeared with the decease of Oimatsu Shin'ichi, who was a professor with a PhD and proper research training, and where the quality of his work speaks for itself. Those days are sadly long gone and what is left is a dump, where politics and suppression of data that do not fit the politics rule. The Kôdôkan, with as source of contact the library, until 2008 flatly denied the existence of gô-no-kata and during a conversation I had in 2008  --I think-- I was explained as to why I could not write or publish anything about gô-no-kata in the upcoming volume of the Bulletin of Scientific Studies of the Kôdôkan. Two of the 10th dan-holders told me they had never heard the term gô-no-kata and presumed that it was go-no-kata, i.e. the on-reading of 五, the kanji for five, of which the kun-reading is itsutsu. The only person who knew about gô-no-kata was evidently Daigo-sensei, which is no surprise as the is the only one left at the Kôdôkan with expert knowledge that goes beyond the mere mechanics of jûdô techniques, but he referred to Ochiai-sensei.

    There is more to tell about this, but I am going to keep it decent.

    Dear CK,

    With all due respect. You are a master of the art of keeping interesting stuff to yourself.

    So like we say in Brazil "um sujo falando de um mal lavado", something like "the pot calling the kettle black".  Laughing

    Dear Wdax,

    Could you provide the reference of the book that describes Gô-no-kata?  Suspect
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:15 am

    fredlinuk

    All the references you want are in the papers on the Go-no-kata by De Cree and Jones and published in the "Archives of Budo". Part III has the reference you want. http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=881133

    The book is "Judo Mizu Nagare" by Kuhara-sensei.
    fredlinux
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    Post by fredlinux Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:45 am

    Jonesy wrote:fredlinuk

    All the references you want are in the papers on the Go-no-kata by De Cree and Jones and published in the "Archives of Budo". Part III has the reference you want. http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=881133

    The book is "Judo Mizu Nagare" by Kuhara-sensei.

    Thanks Jonesy!

    Kuhara Yoshiyuki (久原義之): Judō Mizu Nagare - 柔道水流(みずながれ). (Hibaihin). Tōkyō, 1976.

    It is available at Kodokan Library, I will have a look at it in July  study 

    Ku17 : 789 : 23 : Ku22 : 柔道水流(みずながれ) : 久原義之 : 修道館久原道場 : 1976.9
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:44 am

    fredlinux wrote:

    Dear CK,

    With all due respect. You are a master of the art of keeping interesting stuff to yourself.

    So like we say in Brazil "um sujo falando de um mal lavado", something like "the pot calling the kettle black".  Laughing

    Perhaps there is some confusion. The book I was referring to was the Dutch Busen book. I did not comment on the book mentioned by wdax, which according to his post was  a book from the 1950s, not 1970s, which suggests it is a different book than the one referred to by Jonesy.

    I try to publish and share as much as I can about the things I do research on, but do realize that this is a very slow and difficult process, because it is a lot of work, and because many of the journals I have to target also charge a lot of money in order to publish, and we get no financial support from anybody, not from judo federations, not from the Kôdôkan, not from any jûdô federation. Instead they'd rather spend money to prevent me from publishing unpopular research findings.

    Also, understand that I can only publish on topics when the research is complete and sufficiently sound. There are many open folders on my computer about other interesting jûdô topics but where the research is not sufficiently finished, or I don't have enough time to convert them all into documents. Lastly, also understand that jûdô is but one of my research areas. I also do and need to do research on totally different scientific areas which are considered more important in academic than jûdô.

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