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    What's the history of Go-No-Sen-no-Kata?

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    wdax


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    Post by wdax Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:35 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:I did not comment on the book mentioned by wdax, which according to his post was  a book from the 1950s, not 1970s, which suggests it is a different book than the one referred to by Jonesy.

    I think Jonesy and I are talking about the same book. I only saw it once, was very surprised about seeing detailed picture series of Go-no-Kata and - because I cannot read japanese - asked a japanese lady, if she could tell me, who the author is. It was Kuhara-sensei. The book looked very old to me, so I thought it is a bit older then from the 1970s....

    Is 1976 the year of the first printing?
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:35 pm

    wdax wrote:
    I think Jonesy and I are talking about the same book. I only saw it once, was very surprised about seeing detailed picture series of Go-no-Kata and - because I cannot read japanese - asked a japanese lady, if she could tell me, who the author is. It was Kuhara-sensei. The book looked very old to me, so I thought it is a bit older then from the 1970s....

    Is 1976 the year of the first printing?
    "Judo Mizu Nagare" is one of the rarest judo books in existence.  It is an extensive study of kata by the late Yoshiyuki Kuhara (9 dan).  The kata in the book are performed by Kuhara as tori, and Shoichiro Sato (8 dan) as uke.  The book was printed only in very limited numbers and is hibaihin (not openly on sale). It is so rare that is not even available in antique bookshops or in specialized auctions. At the time it was printed it was only available in Kuhara’s own Shudokan dojo and copies were only available to his longtime students.

    1976 is indeed the year it is was printed.

    By means of example - a set of (Go-no-kata) pictures from the book is shown on page 2 of this short article.

    http://www.kanosociety.org/Bulletins/pdf%20bulletins/bulletinx22b.pdf

    The book does not contain the Gonosen-no-kata.


    Last edited by Jonesy on Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total
    Stevens
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    Post by Stevens Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:38 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    There are many open folders on my computer about other interesting jûdô topics but where the research is not sufficiently finished, or I don't have enough time to convert them all into documents.

    So there's also a open folder about Go no Sen no Kata?

    About the Go no Kata i know that a friend/teacher asked the kodokan about it and he got an answer back about Itsutsu no Kata. As we read above the special book of this Go no Kata was not available for most people in this world!

    But what about Yokoyama, was he of the yakuza?
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:11 am

    Stevens wrote:

    So there's also a open folder about Go no Sen no Kata?

    Yes, on my computer.


    Stevens wrote:
    About the Go no Kata i know that a friend/teacher asked the kodokan about it and he got an answer back about Itsutsu no Kata.

    That is very probably, and this because of two reasons: 1. wrong pronunciation by a non-Japanese: go is not the same as .


    Stevens wrote:As we read above the special book of this Go no Kata was not available for most people in this world!

    But what about Yokoyama, was he of the yakuza?


    It's also not necessary for most people unless one is a scholar to have every possible antique book in a language most Westerners can't read anyway, especially when there are freely available scholarly articles and videos on YouTube.


    Stevens wrote:
    But what about Yokoyama, was he of the yakuza?

    Maybe find a pic of his hands and see if he still has both of his pinkies, or if he sports any kewl tattoos. Otherwise, ask Kuden; he'll know.
    Stevens
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    Post by Stevens Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:08 am


    Stevens wrote:As we read above the special book of this Go no Kata was not available for most people in this world!

    But what about Yokoyama, was he of the yakuza?


    It's also not necessary for most people unless one is a scholar to have every possible antique book in a language most Westerners can't read anyway, especially when there are freely available scholarly articles and videos on YouTube.

    I can't remember that there were freely available scholarly articles and videos on YouTube in 1999-2005?.



    Stevens wrote:
    But what about Yokoyama, was he of the yakuza?

    Maybe find a pic of his hands and see if he still has both of his pinkies, or if he sports any kewl tattoos. Otherwise, ask Kuden; he'll know.[/quote]

    Ok, i'll do my research on internet about the yakuza. I think not every yakuza misses a pinkie, but what do i know? I have a new interest for research. Thanks i let you all know if there's new info about Go no Sen no kata.
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:17 am

    Stevens wrote:
    I can't remember that there were freely available scholarly articles and videos on YouTube in 1999-2005?.

    Oh, you were wondering about the past ? Sure. I thought you were referring to now.



    Stevens wrote:
    But what about Yokoyama, was he of the yakuza?

    Ok, i'll do my research on internet about the yakuza. I think not every yakuza misses a pinkie, but what do i know? I have a new interest for research. Thanks i let you all know if there's new info about Go no Sen no kata.

    No, they do not all miss fingers. I was saying this "tongue-in-cheek".

    I doubt that there will be anything significant to be found on gonosen-no-kata here. Finding anything really meaningful on gonosen-no-kata will require access to not commonly known vintage material, and manual research into sources most won't even have ever heard of. This is assuming that it actually has historic roots and is not a "reinvented tradition" of something that in reality was a European invention. Just looking at it, it is primitive, unsophisticated, and not the kind of thing that is consisted with someone like Kanô or Mifune. It is much more amateuristic with little pedagogic or philosophic foundation, if any at all. It's a pure mechanistic thing, which is more consisted with the kind of views that Westerners had or a Japanese who would not be very senior.
    noboru
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    What's the history of Go-No-Sen-no-Kata?  - Page 2 Empty Mr. Fumiaki Shishida from Waseda University

    Post by noboru Sun May 17, 2015 3:19 am

    Mr. Fumiaki Shishida is known researcher about judo, aikido history is from Waseda University (his website http://www.f.waseda.jp/fuzanaoi/index-English.html or http://www.waseda.jp/sports/gcoe/eng/members/fumiaki-shishida.html ) . It could be right person for giving informations about Gonosen-no-kata in Waseda University.

    I found one email adress for contact him: fuzonaoi@waseda.jp but the this account is not valid
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Sun May 17, 2015 6:59 am

    I have met with Professor Shisida when he was over in the UK at Cambridge last year. I did discuss this with him and there is little or no new knowledge of this kata at Waseda.
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:07 am

    The question about the history of gonosen-no-kata has now received an in-depth answer in the following recently published paper:

    Kōdōkan jūdō’s three orphaned forms of counter techniques – Part 1: The Gonosen-no-kata ―“Forms of post-attack initiative counter throws”. Archives of Budo 11: 93-123, 2015.

    Available from: http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=1151330
    Stevens
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    Post by Stevens Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:45 am

    Jonesy wrote:The question about the history of gonosen-no-kata has now received an in-depth answer in the following recently published paper:

    Kōdōkan jūdō’s three orphaned forms of counter techniques – Part 1: The Gonosen-no-kata  ―“Forms of post-attack initiative counter throws”. Archives of Budo 11: 93-123, 2015.

    Available from: http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=1151330

    Must be a great piece again! I'm gonna read it as soon as possible. Thanks for this link and thanks to mr. Carl DeCree for doing this jb and sharing it with the judoworld!
    NBK
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    Post by NBK Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:53 am

    Jonesy wrote:The question about the history of gonosen-no-kata has now received an in-depth answer in the following recently published paper:

    Kōdōkan jūdō’s three orphaned forms of counter techniques – Part 1: The Gonosen-no-kata  ―“Forms of post-attack initiative counter throws”. Archives of Budo 11: 93-123, 2015.

    Available from: http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=1151330
    Great article, thanks. Do most Europeans know and practice this kata (other than France, where it appears to be a requirement).

    Seems odd to see 徳三宝 transcribed as Toku Sanbô. I've always understood his name to be read Sanpô, and that's how the National Diet Library transcribes it.

    NBK
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:23 am

    NBK wrote:
    Great article, thanks.  Do most Europeans know and practice this kata (other than France, where it appears to be a requirement).

    Seems odd to see 徳三宝 transcribed as Toku Sanbô.  I've always understood his name to be read Sanpô, and that's how the National Diet Library transcribes it.  

    NBK
    It has been popular in the UK - particularly in the 1960s and 70s. It is now back in the BJA promotion syllabus as a kata for 3 Dan via the Technical Dan Grade route.

    The BJC prefer an alternative kata of counters - Kaeshi-no-kata.
    noboru
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    What's the history of Go-No-Sen-no-Kata?  - Page 2 Empty Many thanks

    Post by noboru Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:17 pm

    In the Czech Republic is Go-No-Sen-no-Kata requested for 2.dan grading (with Nage-no-kata) and for 3.dan (with Kime-no-kata). Lot of older czech judo teachers prefered Go-No-Sen-no-Kata practice before Nage-no-kata and Katame-no-kata.

    Nice article. Thank you a lot Carl de Cree for his research.
    Stevens
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    Post by Stevens Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:33 pm

    Can we say that Kawaishi sensei took the name Go-No-Sen-no-Kata (and the techniques) from the time he was in England (altough he knew that the roots were from the Waseda) and that Tani sensei made of the same sources (Ura-Waza/Kaeshi-Waza) the Kaeshi-no-Kata?
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:20 pm

    Stevens wrote:Can we say that Kawaishi sensei took the name Go-No-Sen-no-Kata (and the techniques) from the time he was in England (altough he knew that the roots were from the Waseda) and that Tani sensei made of the same sources (Ura-Waza/Kaeshi-Waza) the Kaeshi-no-Kata?
    No. I do not think we can.
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    Post by medo Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:49 pm

    Jonesy wrote:The question about the history of gonosen-no-kata has now received an in-depth answer in the following recently published paper:

    Kōdōkan jūdō’s three orphaned forms of counter techniques – Part 1: The Gonosen-no-kata  ―“Forms of post-attack initiative counter throws”. Archives of Budo 11: 93-123, 2015.

    Available from: http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=1151330

    The authors been busy.. Really enjoyed the history of GNK and all the other Kata papers.

    I was wondering though if the author and his helpers had contacted the Otani family as Ōtani Masutarō 大谷 増太郎 (1898-1977) had been a significant figure around the the early British history. I believe the Otani family have significant records and old footage of their father which may have added to this brilliant paper.

    I am not academic, if new evidence comes to light is the paper added to or has to be rewritten the author cannot be expected to know everything or own every bit of evidence known to man on the subject.

    Bit like if this is correct http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/science/scrap-of-papyrus-referring-to-jesus-wife-is-likely-to-be-ancient-scientists-say.html?_r=0
    the big book might need to be amended.
    Stevens
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    Post by Stevens Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:57 pm

    Jonesy wrote:
    Stevens wrote:Can we say that Kawaishi sensei took the name Go-No-Sen-no-Kata (and the techniques) from the time he was in England (altough he knew that the roots were from the Waseda) and that Tani sensei made of the same sources (Ura-Waza/Kaeshi-Waza) the Kaeshi-no-Kata?
    No. I do not think we can.

    Ok, maybe i didn't understand the paper very well or i used the wrong words.

    "Go-no-sen-no-kata"
    In the paper page. 111: The oldest document known to us that links Kawaishi and the go-no-sen-no-kata is of British origin, and is the ..............."Exhibition---Go-no-sen-no-kata---Throws and Counter Throws M. Kawaishi and M. Otani".

    "Kaeshi-no-Kata"
    In the paper page 103, 105: This is important as it provides the answer to yet another major misunderstanding. For decades it has been believed in the West, ..........We are not aware of any authentic historic document in Japanese attesting to such a kata ever having existed.

    In reality keashi-(no)-kata as proposed by some British authors and judoka is a misconstruction by mainly non-Japanese speaking people who misunderstood kaeshi-(no)-kata as supposedly ............., concepts well-known in Japan but of which terminology is not common in judo outside of Japan.

    My interpretation:
    The first verifiable appearance of Keashi-Waza with the name Go-no-sen-no-katä was 1926 at the London Budokwai byIshiguro Keishichi. After this event must these waza have been the roots of the later famous Kawaishi Go-no-sen-no-kata and the, in England popular, Kaeshi-(no)-kata.
    Questions are:
    1 Where did Kawaishi hear the name Go-no-sen-no-kata first time?
    2 Who created the Kaeshi-(no)-kata?

    We know the roots are Takahashi from Japan. The name Go-no-sen-no-kata is from England. The both kata are not original kata as we know the Kodokan judo kata. The both kata have been changed from a set of waza into a kata as we know of Kodokan judo kata. Am i right???????

    Who can help!

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