Name this throw....

Hey guy,

Started Judo back up about 6 months ago, had a year or so  experience when I was 9.  Currently 5th Kyu (yellow belt)

Here is footage from a recent competition (semi-final and final) of a throw that I've been having some success with.

https://s561.photobucket.com/user/sol1821/media/throwquestion_zps8929e119.mp4.html

Was just wondering what you would name it as. The coach at the club has said it's just a variation of  De-ashi-barai, but it's not really a sweep more of a drop, so I was thinking it's a bit closer to Yoko-otoshi.

Let me know what you think, plus any other advice.
Cheers
Sol

sol1821 wrote:Hey guy,
Was just wondering what you would name it as. The coach at the club has said it's just a variation of  De-ashi-barai, but it's not really a sweep more of a drop, so I was thinking it's a bit closer to Yoko-otoshi.

Well, this is not an henka of de-ashi-barai, it cannot be. As this is sutemi-waza. As for yoko-otoshi, I dont feel the direction of kuzushi of uke fits here.

For me this is obviously an application of yoko-gake

Ryvai wrote:

sol1821 wrote:Hey guy,
Was just wondering what you would name it as. The coach at the club has said it's just a variation of  De-ashi-barai, but it's not really a sweep more of a drop, so I was thinking it's a bit closer to Yoko-otoshi.

Well, this is not an henka of de-ashi-barai, it cannot be. As this is sutemi-waza. As for yoko-otoshi, I dont feel the direction of kuzushi of uke fits here.

For me this is obviously an application of yoko-gake

Cheers, Yoko-gake was the other possibility I was looking at.

It is not a throw. It is something we call "poor judo". It is the kind of thing that is often seen in novices who have in their hoime club a couple of times seen and participated in practicing sutemi when the instructor put that on the program, and who realized that if your skills are too low to actually come in a throw, wouldn't it be fantastic to just score by first throwing yourself and in this way get the opponent on the floor. It is the typical thing we see when someone does not yet realize that a sutemi just like any other throw requires tsukuri, debana, proper kuzushi, so everything that is not present in the clip. So really this is dragging into the ground but on an opponent who still has such poor body position and reacts in a rigid way that one succeeds to get him on the ground in an action that resembles a throw. It is most certainly not a henka of de-ashi-barai and has nothing to do with de-ashi-barai. As long as instructors do not properly emphasize the need to learn come in standing throws, it will be tempting rather than to overcome the difficulty of producing kuzushi and turning in between two blocking arm to drag the oppoent to the ground instead. Current contest rules are conducive of anything that causes someone to touch the tatami with his back to be awarded with ippon despite possibly not being actual throws or actions that involve kuzushi, debana, control or even sufficient impact.

sol1821 wrote:Cheers, Yoko-gake was the other possibility I was looking at.

I might be mistaken but I recall seeing this variation in the book Kodokan Throwing Techniques by Daigo sensei under application of either Yoko-gake or Sasae-tsurikomi-ashi. When you perform a sasae-tsurikomi-ashi type attack, like you do in that video, as yoko-sutemi-waza I believe it fits the classification of Yoko-gake.

Some info on Yoko-gake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoko_gake

Sadly I'm traveling, so I cannot quote the book for you. I think Cichorei Kano is a bit harsh on you, while your throw is not "ideal" I would not call it just poor judo. Under the current referee rules you cannot score anything above wazaari with this type of attack, so if these judges gave you ippon in 2013 you where lucky

Keep practicing m8, I liked your throw! Sutemi-waza just takes time to understand

Ryvai wrote:

sol1821 wrote:Cheers, Yoko-gake was the other possibility I was looking at.

I might be mistaken but I recall seeing this variation in the book Kodokan Throwing Techniques by Daigo sensei under application of either Yoko-gake or Sasae-tsurikomi-ashi. When you perform a sasae-tsurikomi-ashi type attack, like you do in that video, as yoko-sutemi-waza I believe it fits the classification of Yoko-gake.

Some info on Yoko-gake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoko_gake

Sadly I'm traveling, so I cannot quote the book for you. I think Cichorei Kano is a bit harsh on you, while your throw is not "ideal" I would not call it just poor judo. Under the current referee rules you cannot score anything above wazaari with this type of attack, so if these judges gave you ippon in 2013 you where lucky

Keep practicing m8, I liked your throw! Sutemi-waza just takes time to understand

Two things.

Firstly, the point of my reply was not to be acerbic or cause psychological damage to the original poster or produce yet another person who dislikes me, but simply to make it clear that something does not need to be judo to be successful in judo and be scoreable. If you have so much power that you can simply lift your opponent off his feet using nothing than your amrs and then throw him full on his back, then this will be a score, but it is neither judo nor a judo technique or throw. Secondly, in order for something to be an actual judo throw some criteria need to be made. It is not because one attempts a throw, or thinks one is doing a judo throw that it actually is a judo throw.

The second thing is also rather sensitive and will come across as acerbic though it is not meant to be that way. So not good way to put this, but despite Daigo's explication: do you honestly think that the judoka in the clip at this moment has the skills to perform yoko-gake ? When not having the skills than simply throwing some things together where one sees characteristics that are also present in a specific throw, does not make it the same.

Really this kind of things belongs to what biomechanist Professor Sacripanti calls "chaotic throws". They are not nonclassifiable actions with elements of throws that often occur as a fluke of the moment and may or may not get scored.

It is not yoko gake . A correctly performed yoko gake is the hardest and fastest throw and fall in the gokyo. It is closer to stka in substance.

I have a Russian student who is now a shodan, who since he started judo has used this technique all the time when he cannot throw with anything else.
He is not the greatest but he is very strong and relies on power to try and make this technique work. It never does. He tries it and invariably gets pinned.
Sutemi waza are a speciality of mine as I have spent many years studying them and CK is correct in what he says.
I have in the past disagreed with some of CK's posts but he is bang on the money with this one.
It is applaudable that the OP is posting videos of himself and he has my utmost respect in doing so, but at yellow belt other more basic techniques should be practised in shiai.
This very rarely works against any higher grades as you progress. I have seen it time and again with the my Russian student. I constantly tell him this but he will always revert to type when all else fails. He will try it in randori against other brown and black belts and he will always get passed and pinned. Great guy but will just not learn a lesson from doing this particular technique.

To the OP, enjoy your judo and take these comments as something constructive. They are not meant as a slight on your judo. They are posted to try and help you get better.

Wow, some harsh words for the OP. There are (thankfully) only a view clips of me on the web and I wouldn't have the balls to post them on here; so genuine respect for having the courage to do so.

Just because something works doesn't make it right. If you cannot identify the core principle that makes your throw work then you need to review it until you can. This is easier said than done, but when you can do this your judo will improve immeasurably.

still learning wrote:Wow, some harsh words for the OP. There are (thankfully) only a view clips of me on the web and I wouldn't have the balls to post them on here; so genuine respect for having the courage to do so.

Just because something works doesn't make it right. If you cannot identify the core principle that makes your throw work then you need to review it until you can. This is easier said than done, but when you can do this your judo will improve immeasurably.

Harsh words? I knew as soon as I read the OPs question this would become one of 'those' threads.

This is cyber judo so we all have a voice. No tatami here to demonstrate or makes ones point more palatable or give a clearer demonstration.

The 'red light' to me was not in the OP's question but where his coach described this action as some sort of de ashi barai? To me from then on all was lost. No one here can nor should replace ones coach and its a pointless exercise in even trying to offer the OP any advice given his coaches comments.

To the OP. Thank you for posting your clip. It is very VERY difficult to offer you help via this media. The person you need to chat with is your coach. From your wording I take it your coach accepts and encourages you to make such actions in shiai?

Two points. One you will hurt a partner doing this sort of action and you will not progress in learning your judo. You may, SHORT TERM, win trophies at championships BUT there will come a time when this sort of action will greatly play against you UNLESS you sand bag and remain a yellow obi all your judo life?

I would not worry about the name I would concentrate on learning judo technique. This will depend on your coach though and from what you have read it 'appears' your teacher is happy with your progress. To that end what we write here is redundant.

PLEASE accept we are here to support and offer you all the help we can BUT there are limitations to that given your coach and this media.

Very best wishes,

Mike

sol1821 wrote:Hey guy,
Let me know what you think, plus any other advice.
Cheers
Sol

It is great that you are back into judo, having success in competition, and obviously enjoying yourself.

Given your level of experience in judo, my advice would be to focus as much as possible on techniques such as seoi-nage, o-goshi, tsuri-komi-goshi, ESPECIALLY in randori. You may notice that it is much harder to throw someone with these - in fact you may easily spend a year or more without any success at all, but in the long run you will develop much finer and more effective judo.

The risk of practicing how to throw someone the way you did in these contests is that it almost always hampers progress in judo. Something else that is useful is to visit other clubs and join in with their training to be exposed to other approaches to judo.

Thanks for the replies guys, lots for me to think about.

[quote="Cichorei Kano"]

Ryvai wrote:
... nonclassifiable actions with elements of throws that often occur as a fluke ...

Brilliant! I'm going to use this description as soon as we're back on the tatami after Christmas.

It looks a bit like a sasae tsurikomi ashi that transitions into a sutemi waza of some sort, especially that first one.

This type of throw comes from beginners its not taught but is a natural progression because the first thing we teach beginners is to throw themselves (ukemi) then early comes de ashi so kids tend to mix the two by falling and sticking out a leg(I'm not saying it has anything to do with deashi).

Needs to be corrected same as pull back waki otoshi type techniques because you then have kids who then become reliant on them and do not progress as they should, it also ruins the beginners class as students become hesitant to perform/practice forward attacks through fear of being countered.

To the OP it works at present but you will find as the players you fight get more experienced they won't be there when you drop and will promptly gather you in for a hold down well that's what I would have done in my youth   

As far as I understand you're trying to find a match for your performance in Gokyo-no-waza. The answer is you shouldn't do that because it's pointless. Gokyo is a script for learning martial skills according to judo principles. It's not a catalog of final techniques but a set of exercises by which you learn things such as kuzushi, debana, tai sabaki and others. It may happen that your final throw matches one of those in gokyo by a great deal but it doesn't mean that it's more correct than a non-gokyo like throw as long as they are based on the same principles.
Every real encounter is unique in its own way and thus unrepeatable. Naming every single application of judo principles may be theoretically possible, but it would make no real sense...unless you want to impress someone.

All the best

tafftaz wrote:It is not yoko gake . A correctly performed yoko gake is the hardest and fastest throw and fall in the gokyo. It is closer to stka in substance.

Keep in mind that there is no ONE way of performing yoko-gake, it's a principle and we rarely see the throw performed in randori or shiai. I am not saying OP's video reflects perfect execution of yoko-gake (if that even exists), nor am I saying that this is the ideal way of performing it. I am merely saying that if I where to place this throw into an category, yoko-gake would be the closest fit. When sasae-tsurikomi-ashi is combined with sutemi-waza the result resembles Yoko-gake.

OP attempts, atleast in my mind, an application of the principle of yoko-gake, sono ni (2:37) in the following video, demonstrated by Kyuzu Mifune:

Ryvai wrote:

tafftaz wrote:It is not yoko gake . A correctly performed yoko gake is the hardest and fastest throw and fall in the gokyo. It is closer to stka in substance.

Keep in mind that there is no ONE way of performing yoko-gake, it's a principle and we rarely see the throw performed in randori or shiai. I am not saying OP's video reflects perfect execution of yoko-gake (if that even exists), nor am I saying that this is the ideal way of performing it. I am merely saying that if I where to place this throw into an category, yoko-gake would be the closest fit. When sasae-tsurikomi-ashi is combined with sutemi-waza the result resembles Yoko-gake.

OP attempts, atleast in my mind, an application of the principle of yoko-gake, sono ni (2:37) in the following video, demonstrated by Kyuzu Mifune:

You correctly mention a principle. What is that principle in terms of Yoko gake?

Mike

Hanon wrote:

Ryvai wrote:

tafftaz wrote:It is not yoko gake . A correctly performed yoko gake is the hardest and fastest throw and fall in the gokyo. It is closer to stka in substance.

Keep in mind that there is no ONE way of performing yoko-gake, it's a principle and we rarely see the throw performed in randori or shiai. I am not saying OP's video reflects perfect execution of yoko-gake (if that even exists), nor am I saying that this is the ideal way of performing it. I am merely saying that if I where to place this throw into an category, yoko-gake would be the closest fit. When sasae-tsurikomi-ashi is combined with sutemi-waza the result resembles Yoko-gake.

OP attempts, atleast in my mind, an application of the principle of yoko-gake, sono ni (2:37) in the following video, demonstrated by Kyuzu Mifune:

You correctly mention a principle. What is that principle in terms of Yoko gake?

Mike

I had actually written about exactly the same post, a couple of hours ago, but had decided on holding off.

So, yes, I too was wondering if the poster could elaborate on what exactly this "principle of yoko-gake sono-ni" was, and then how precisely this principle is applied in the video. On a different not, the poster may wish to reflect about the conventional wisdom of comparing a kyû-rank holder who no one has ever heard of and most likely no one ever will (I do not mean this in an offensive way towards any jûdôka) with a legendary 10th dan holder who was direct student of Kanô, extremely gifted and with the dozens of years of experience he would have had when nearing the end of his life ... It's a bit like ... you have an 8-year old son or daughter who just started messing around a bit with a violin and to explain what she is doing you use David Oistrakh as an example ...

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Hanon wrote:

Ryvai wrote:

tafftaz wrote:It is not yoko gake . A correctly performed yoko gake is the hardest and fastest throw and fall in the gokyo. It is closer to stka in substance.

Keep in mind that there is no ONE way of performing yoko-gake, it's a principle and we rarely see the throw performed in randori or shiai. I am not saying OP's video reflects perfect execution of yoko-gake (if that even exists), nor am I saying that this is the ideal way of performing it. I am merely saying that if I where to place this throw into an category, yoko-gake would be the closest fit. When sasae-tsurikomi-ashi is combined with sutemi-waza the result resembles Yoko-gake.

OP attempts, atleast in my mind, an application of the principle of yoko-gake, sono ni (2:37) in the following video, demonstrated by Kyuzu Mifune:

You correctly mention a principle. What is that principle in terms of Yoko gake?

Mike

I had actually written about exactly the same post, a couple of hours ago, but had decided on holding off.

...

I know exactly where you are coming from. Its a rather absurd in so many ways that we are both reserved about participating in such threads.
I actually avoid most of them all together. Both of us now dance around the subject to avoid causing possible offence even where non is even slightly intended. A classic example of this is this very thread. You have already answered the question yet...................

Mike

Ryvai wrote:

tafftaz wrote:It is not yoko gake . A correctly performed yoko gake is the hardest and fastest throw and fall in the gokyo. It is closer to stka in substance.

Keep in mind that there is no ONE way of performing yoko-gake, it's a principle and we rarely see the throw performed in randori or shiai. I am not saying OP's video reflects perfect execution of yoko-gake (if that even exists), nor am I saying that this is the ideal way of performing it. I am merely saying that if I where to place this throw into an category, yoko-gake would be the closest fit. When sasae-tsurikomi-ashi is combined with sutemi-waza the result resembles Yoko-gake.

OP attempts, atleast in my mind, an application of the principle of yoko-gake, sono ni (2:37) in the following video, demonstrated by Kyuzu Mifune:

I know that there is more than one way to execute a throw. I can show you at least 10 different variations of tomoe nage (not including yoko tomoe nage) that I have used consistently throughout my judo career in shia and randori. No matter how I use this waza it is still tomoe nage.
The OP's video is still not yoko gake in my mind. I know of hell of a lot of dan ranks who do not know what yoko gake is, let alone perform it.
I stand by my original post. Not yoko gake , but a variation of STKA.