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    What throw is this?

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    Post by NYCNewbie Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:15 pm

    At :23 of this video.

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    still learning


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    Post by still learning Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:56 pm

    Looks like a version of uranage from the front. Similar to the khabarelli, or mae hiza uranage according to the BJA.
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    Post by charlietuna Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:53 am

    I would agree with ura nage, but it could also be the most powerful tani otoshi ever!
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    Post by judo66 Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:00 am

    At :22 tori's hip is engaged for ushiro goshi. Tori completes his throw as a sutemi to make sure to get the ippon. Naming a throw executed during a shiai is not always easy since it is often an adaptation of principles depending of the oportunity.
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    Post by Ro Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:40 am

    Since its hard to see the action of uke before hand, I can see why people think ura nage as it could well be. I believe this is a version of o uchi gaeshi. Uke seems to attack with o uchi gari or atleast appears too.

    Its always hard to describe shiai waza espically when that clip is short or missing some part leading to and after the waza.
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    Post by Udon Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:42 am

    I think Ro is correct in saying,ouchi-gaeshi.
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    Post by Jonesy Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:48 am

    It is lifting knee uranage. Ignore the bullshit BJA name.....
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:05 am

    Jonesy wrote:It is lifting knee uranage. Ignore the bullshit BJA name.....

    The irony is killing me !
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    Post by judoratt Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:27 pm

    Uranage is what I see. Shocked
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    Post by NYCNewbie Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:20 am

    Jonesy wrote:It is lifting knee uranage. Ignore the bullshit BJA name.....

    Jonesy (and everyone else): the reason why I ask is because this is pretty much the ONLY THROW I ever get in Randori- EVER! But I do get it (rarely, but I do pop it from time to time)! And I never know what it is!!!!! I don't set out to do it- it just "happens" (unlike all the other times in Judo when I do set out to do something and nothing happens lol).

    Anyway- it pretty much always goes like this: me and Uke are locking horns- Uke moves in for a right Uchimata, which fails, and I suddenly find myself standing perpendicular to him, with my left leg behind him. Immediately (instinctively) I push off with my left leg and push up with my right (collar) hand as I dive backwards- spinning both myself and Uke in midair so that I land face down and Uke lands face up- with my right hand adding the final "slam" to the throw. I hope this makes sense.

    The reason I have trouble labeling it Ura Nage is because in the classical Ura Nage Tori tosses Uke up and over his head so to speak- whereas I land right directly next to him- our heads together- only I'm facing the mat and he's facing the sky. It's like our bodies are one- just facing different ways- where in Ura Nage it's as if Tori is throwing a bale of hay onto a truck platform that's above his head- which is a different action to what I do. The initial thrusting-up-and-turning-backwards-motion is similar, but then we're both falling together, with me "leading" the fall all the way to finish.

    I'm more hugging the bale of hay and- while falling/slighly jumping backwards- twisting in midair and planting the hay bale into the ground with my right arm.

    Kosoto Gake Makikomi perhaps?

    Or still Ura Nage- but a variation?




    Last edited by NYCNewbie on Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Wandering WB Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:16 am

    A mix of Ura Nage assisted by a pseudo Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi.
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    Post by medo Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:17 am

    Wandering WB wrote:A mix of Ura Nage assisted by a pseudo Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi.

    WB do you actually practice Judo?

    I quite like your stabs at participating in the Judo forums, I hope all see it just as that.




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    Post by Blacksmith Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:57 am

    medo wrote:
    Wandering WB wrote:A mix of Ura Nage assisted by a pseudo Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi.

    WB do you actually practice Judo?

    I quite like your stabs at participating in the Judo forums, I hope all see it just as that.


    Not sure exactly what is, but STKA did not immediately come to mind.
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    Post by Wandering WB Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:56 am


    WB do you actually practice Judo?

    I quite like your stabs at participating in the Judo forums, I hope all see it just as that.
    medo, from your posts I thought you were retired, so you are not in any position to lecture me on the difference between Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi and Ura Nage... since the foot action is obvious in this throw`Razz
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    Post by NYCNewbie Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:36 am

    (sigh)
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    Post by genetic judoka Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:24 pm

    sasae is a forward throw. case closed, you lose. retiring doesn't mean you forget everything. also to retire one must first do judo, therefore he's well ahead of you.

    now onto discussion with people who know what they're talking about: if had to name it I'd call it a kosoto gama where tori followed uke to the ground. I could of course be wrong.
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    Post by NYCNewbie Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:20 pm

    It's so funny that the ONE throw I ever get no one can truly identify (again: the throw I do is the throw at :23 in the video- precisely). I am certainly no expert but it is NOT Ura Nage- at least according to all of the proper, technically correct demonstrations of Ura Nage I've ever seen (including Ura Nage in the Nage No Kata). Neither I- nor the guy in the video at :23- throw Uke over our heads like how the canonical Ura Nage is always shown.

    Even when I literally showed this throw- in slow motion- live- to a 4th degree black belt at my club he was kind of stumped. Then he said "I think that what that is is a Kosoto Gake Makikomi."

    But I remain unconvinced. Very Happy

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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:25 pm

    NYCNewbie wrote:It's so funny that the ONE throw I ever get no one can truly identify (again: the throw I do is the throw at :23 in the video- precisely). I am certainly no expert but it is NOT Ura Nage- at least according to all of the proper, technically correct demonstrations of Ura Nage I've ever seen (including Ura Nage in the Nage No Kata). Neither I- nor the guy in the video at :23- throw Uke over our heads like how the canonical Ura Nage is always shown.

    Even when I literally showed this throw- in slow motion- live- to a 4th degree black belt at my club he was kind of stumped. Then he said "I think that what that is is a Kosoto Gake Makikomi."

    But I remain unconvinced. Very Happy


    What makes you decided that this is just one throw ? It is a renraku-waza that starts as one throw and ends as another ... That is why so many people get confused.
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    Post by NYCNewbie Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:59 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NYCNewbie wrote:It's so funny that the ONE throw I ever get no one can truly identify (again: the throw I do is the throw at :23 in the video- precisely). I am certainly no expert but it is NOT Ura Nage- at least according to all of the proper, technically correct demonstrations of Ura Nage I've ever seen (including Ura Nage in the Nage No Kata). Neither I- nor the guy in the video at :23- throw Uke over our heads like how the canonical Ura Nage is always shown.

    Even when I literally showed this throw- in slow motion- live- to a 4th degree black belt at my club he was kind of stumped. Then he said "I think that what that is is a Kosoto Gake Makikomi."

    But I remain unconvinced. Very Happy


    What makes you decided that this is just one throw ? It is a renraku-waza that starts as one throw and ends as another ... That is why so many people get confused.

    So the throw I do is two throws?
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:03 pm

    NYCNewbie wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NYCNewbie wrote:It's so funny that the ONE throw I ever get no one can truly identify (again: the throw I do is the throw at :23 in the video- precisely). I am certainly no expert but it is NOT Ura Nage- at least according to all of the proper, technically correct demonstrations of Ura Nage I've ever seen (including Ura Nage in the Nage No Kata). Neither I- nor the guy in the video at :23- throw Uke over our heads like how the canonical Ura Nage is always shown.

    Even when I literally showed this throw- in slow motion- live- to a 4th degree black belt at my club he was kind of stumped. Then he said "I think that what that is is a Kosoto Gake Makikomi."

    But I remain unconvinced. Very Happy


    What makes you decided that this is just one throw ? It is a renraku-waza that starts as one throw and ends as another ... That is why so many people get confused.

    So the throw I do is two throws?

    Renraku-waza is combination of techniques, in this case also renzoku-waza as the techniques continue into the same direction. Usually combinations consist of two techniques, but obviously there is no limit to the number, and combinations can also entail three, four or even more techniques. Limits are posed only by the fact that one cannot follow up newaza by a throw anymore. In most cases, when the first technique is a sutemi-waza, the following techniques are limited, usually only to katame-waza, but not always. Yours is one such case where a sutemi-waza is followed up by another sutemi-waza. This becomes possible if after the first sutemi-waza the jûdôka are not yet in newaza, but still in standing or semi-standing position.

    Indeed as some suggest, what you are doing is often referred to as ura-nage, but it is incorrect and that for the reasons you already have discovered yourself. Only two judo throws really start off in that way and that are ura-nage and yoko-guruma, but yours does not include yoko-guruma as no attempt is made to 'wheel' the opponent; the fact that you turn your own body towards the end is irrelevant and mostly destined to show to the referee you are actually in control by landing on top, and obviously also for yourself so you ARE in control and can continue easily with osae-komi-waza or other.

    So, the throw starts in ura-nage, but does not conclude in ura-nage because in order to do so, uke would need to be thrown in ura, which in this context means behind the back of tori, which is not the case. Instead, your ura-nage flows over in a second throw. That second throw is and cannot be a standing throw such as erroneously has been suggested, so it is not sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi or ko-soto-gake, but another sutemi-waza. If a sutemi-waza is followed up by another throw it is almost always invariably another sutemi-waza, and this for obvious reasons, since it is hard to stop sacrificing your body and continue without sacrificing your body. So what remains ? Not too many options; the second throw is not yoko-gake either, and as already said not yoko-guruma. One reasonable option would be to consider the second throw as tani-otoshi. That would not be bad guess. Only it is correct as the way you perform the final action is clearly not a "drop down", but a projection. The second throw is a henka of daki-wakare performed in standing position, as shown in 00'42":



    The difference between the single throw daki-wakare and the renzoku-waza ura-nage + daki-wakare obviously has to do with the starting action. Sole daki-wakare would not contain a true lift or lifting attempt. In other words, the blocked hara in daki-wakare is more used as in yoko-guruma than that it is used as in ura-nage. For this reason it is more accurate to term your action as combination technique ura-nage + daki-wakare (henka) than to simply term it an isolated daki-wakare (henka). I have already explained why it is also less accurate to term it an isolated ura-nage (henka) though the latter will be what most people will call it; that is evidently also because not so many people are familiar with the name daki-wakare particularly not if performed as the henka on a standing opponent. As you may know, daki-wakare is not part of the current 1920 gokyô, but belongs to the habukareta-waza or techniques that were picked up again from the old 1895 gokyô. The classical form, which is done on an opponent in yotsunbai (turtle position), hence the nickname "turtle turnover" is, as mentioned in the videoclip, no longer a scorable throw, since under the current rules you cannot throw someone in newaza for score; such 'throw' is still valid as a nonscoreable turnover obviously.
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    Post by medo Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:04 pm

    Wandering WB wrote:
    WB do you actually practice Judo?

    I quite like your stabs at participating in the Judo forums, I hope all see it just as that.
    medo, from your posts I thought you were retired, so you are not in any position to lecture me on the difference between Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi and Ura Nage... since the foot action is obvious in this throw`Razz

    I would never dare to lecture you... Just looking out for that learner who might just think you are correct in the advice you like to give on this Judo forum.

    The question was do you actually practice Judo?

    The next question is, is English your first language? That might answer why you come across as a petulant child .
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    Post by still learning Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:30 pm

    NYCNewbie wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:It is lifting knee uranage. Ignore the bullshit BJA name.....

    Jonesy (and everyone else): the reason why I ask is because this is pretty much the ONLY THROW I ever get in Randori- EVER! But I do get it (rarely, but I do pop it from time to time)! And I never know what it is!!!!! I don't set out to do it- it just "happens" (unlike all the other times in Judo when I do set out to do something and nothing happens lol).

    Anyway- it pretty much always goes like this: me and Uke are locking horns- Uke moves in for a right Uchimata, which fails, and I suddenly find myself standing perpendicular to him, with my left leg behind him. Immediately (instinctively) I push off with my left leg and push up with my right (collar) hand as I dive backwards- spinning both myself and Uke in midair so that I land face down and Uke lands face up- with my right hand adding the final "slam" to the throw. I hope this makes sense.

    The reason I have trouble labeling it Ura Nage is because in the classical Ura Nage Tori tosses Uke up and over his head so to speak- whereas I land right directly next to him- our heads together- only I'm facing the mat and he's facing the sky. It's like our bodies are one- just facing different ways- where in Ura Nage it's as if Tori is throwing a bale of hay onto a truck platform that's above his head- which is a different action to what I do. The initial thrusting-up-and-turning-backwards-motion is similar, but then we're both falling together, with me "leading" the fall all the way to finish.

    I'm more hugging the bale of hay and- while falling/slighly jumping backwards- twisting in midair and planting the hay bale into the ground with my right arm.

    Kosoto Gake Makikomi perhaps?

    Or still Ura Nage- but a variation?



    As always a video would help. Unless I misunderstand your description it cannot be kosoto gake as this would involve you attacking ukes right ankle as you slide underneath him (watch a nage no kata video to see what I mean). Equally it doesn't sound like a very good ura nage, as ura nage should involve lowering your hips, so that once you clamp uke to you, your legs actually lift him.

    It sounds as though you may have a natural feel for ura nage, and once you actually study the details of the throw who knows what you might achieve. It is very dynamic and challenging throw to get right and I wish you well with it. Check out Iliadis at 3:18

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1dssZQ4ViQ
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    Post by NYCNewbie Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:06 am

    Are any of these actually Ura Nage? Because these look like what I do as well.

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    Post by Okazi Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:55 am

    NYCNewbie wrote:Are any of these actually Ura Nage? Because these look like what I do as well.



    Here is some of what I know about Ura-Nage:

    As it is a "Nage" it requires you to "throw" or "project" your opponent away from your body.

    For it to be ura-nage you must throw in the direction of "Ura", aka the "Rear".

    None of the Tori in that video extend an arm in order to facilitate a projection, opting only to cling tightly to their opponents. None of the Tori in the video seem to throw to their rear either, merely twisting. Maybe I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing but me thinks that none of them were uranage...

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    Post by NYCNewbie Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:10 am

    Okazi wrote:
    NYCNewbie wrote:Are any of these actually Ura Nage? Because these look like what I do as well.



    Here is some of what I know about Ura-Nage:

    As it is a "Nage" it requires you to "throw" or "project" your opponent away from your body.

    For it to be ura-nage you must throw in the direction of "Ura", aka the "Rear".

    None of the Tori in that video extend an arm in order to facilitate a projection, opting only to cling tightly to their opponents. None of the Tori in the video seem to throw to their rear either, merely twisting. Maybe I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing but me thinks that none of them were uranage...


    Can you tell me what you would label those throws as being?

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