in which throw do you see the most variations?

when I ask "in which throw do you see the most variation?", I don't mean "which throw do you see done incorrectly most often?" I mean different ways that a throw can be deliberately done, where seiryoku zenyo is preserved, and the throw has a good likelihood of scoring ippon.

what I refer to is what we've all noticed, which is that people who do a throw a lot tend to subtly (or not so subtly) modify it, and will teach their variation that works well for them to non-beginner students.

which throw have you seen the most variations of?

my vote is tai otoshi or osoto gari. I've seen at least 18 noticeably different ways to do tai otoshi, and at least 12 different ways to do osoto gari.

Seoi nage is up there with osoto gari. I also know of at least 10 ways to perform tomoe nage. Each to his own.

Tai Otoshi. 180 different degrees of attack line alone. Then we can start with grips, entries, height, weight distribution on each leg, use of attacking leg, the list is near endless.

Mike

Hanon wrote:Tai Otoshi. 180 different degrees of attack line alone. Then we can start with grips, entries, height, weight distribution on each leg, use of attacking leg, the list is near endless.

Mike

I agree with Tai Otoshi, many ways to hit it.

To stir the pot my most versatile throw is Uchimata so many different entries and finishes. I guess there is no right answer.

i'd say drop seoi has the most variations as lets face it, its the vague'ist throw (no i can't spell)

We learnt about 6 varieties of kosoto gari tonight alone

Dew wrote:We learnt about 6 varieties of kosoto gari tonight alone

I struggle with just one. Never taken to ko soto gari yet love ashi waza.

Mike

Hanon wrote:

Dew wrote:We learnt about 6 varieties of kosoto gari tonight alone

I struggle with just one. Never taken to ko soto gari yet love ashi waza.

Mike

oh yeah - If I pulled any of them off in randori Id be over the moon - I haven't managed it yet....

So what makes a variation a variation?

afulldeck wrote:So what makes a variation a variation?

one of my sensei has a messed up shoulder (shrapnel, I think), and as a result cannot do a good high sleeve pull. as a result on his preferred tai otoshi he pulls uke's sleeve down to his belt as he turns. and it's an ippon throw almost every time, and uke goes over seemingly effortlessly. to me that's a deliberate variation. he can teach a textbook tai otoshi too, he just can't demonstrate it too many times in a row.

another sensei likes to do a version of tai otoshi where uke goes over to the side instead of forward. we call it "side tai otoshi". great name huh? it's different from tai otoshi going off to different degree angles, because this one is entered quite differently. I consider that a variation, because he can teach a textbook tai otoshi quite well, this is just another way that he does it.

like koga's version of seoi nage. that's an example of a variation.

the list goes on. but what makes them a deliberate variation is that one enters intending to do that technique a given way, it's not a result of tori improvising to a given situation by modifying the intended throw on the fly.

and then there's things like adding the "knee pop" into the tai otoshi, where it's quite debatable whether it's still a tai otoshi.

this could be a fun one.

afulldeck wrote:So what makes a variation a variation?

Wow. Superb question.

Now to try an answer? Another "Wow"....Canonical 'text book' waza have a certain basic principle in their action that must be executed to achieve that given principle. Oh dear....The smart ass answer is a hon waza becomes a henka waza when it varies from the hon version to the degree it becomes another technique. That is of zero help though. Phewwwww.

Most judo we achieve is henka. Hon waza are a theory, A base from which to build and understand the principle of a given throw.

When is harai goshi, Ogoshi with a sweep? When is harai goshi, ashi guruma? The all pervading principle of harai goshi is to sweep the loin of uke from under him. The leg does NOT sweep ukes legs away! The action leg is a guide to build impetus and direction for tori's HIP, it is the hip that throws uke not the leg.

Size and body type not to mention psychological character will make all our judo waza vary to a degree, its the lore of biophysics. Non of us are built the same and no too actions can be replicated to the absolute identical action twice.

Grip in most waza can vary. The idea is not to measure grips by the millimetre but guage the efficiency in how a given grip may best execute the required principle of a given technique.
Tomeo nage is not sumi gaeshi. Perform them for a novice and he will not be able to see the difference. In reality both of those waza are indeed totally different, they may look similar but both have a different dynamics and principle to achieve the ideal result.

Cant give a better answer right now. Its not easy to explain.

Mike

Hanon wrote:

afulldeck wrote:So what makes a variation a variation?

Wow. Superb question.

Now to try an answer? Another "Wow"....Canonical 'text book' waza have a certain basic principle in their action that must be executed to achieve that given principle. Oh dear....The smart ass answer is a hon waza becomes a henka waza when it varies from the hon version to the degree it becomes another technique. That is of zero help though. Phewwwww.

Most judo we achieve is henka. Hon waza are a theory, A base from which to build and understand the principle of a given throw.

When is harai goshi, Ogoshi with a sweep? When is harai goshi, ashi guruma? The all pervading principle of harai goshi is to sweep the loin of uke from under him. The leg does NOT sweep ukes legs away! The action leg is a guide to build impetus and direction for tori's HIP, it is the hip that throws uke not the leg.

Size and body type not to mention psychological character will make all our judo waza vary to a degree, its the lore of biophysics. Non of us are built the same and no too actions can be replicated to the absolute identical action twice.

Grip in most waza can vary. The idea is not to measure grips by the millimetre but guage the efficiency in how a given grip may best execute the required principle of a given technique.
Tomeo nage is not sumi gaeshi. Perform them for a novice and he will not be able to see the difference. In reality both of those waza are indeed totally different, they may look similar but both have a different dynamics and principle to achieve the ideal result.

Cant give a better answer right now. Its not easy to explain.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Over the years I've struggled and puzzled over the idea variations when there is a 'principle' involved in every throw. When does difference of degree become difference of kind in judo? But like you said my hon might be your henka and vis-a-versa all because of body mechanics are rarely the same.

just picking up on something that Hanon wrote here...

Size and body type not to mention psychological character will make all our judo waza vary to a degree, its the lore of biophysics. Non of us are built the same and no two actions can be replicated to the absolute identical action twice.

I cannot tell you how much I agree with this. I'm 6ft2 (190cm) and have comparatively long limbs. Of course my throws will be different than those of someone more compact, and 15-20cm shorter. While attending kangeiko at Kôdôkan winter 2010, I think somewhere around 7-8 different people, both regular visitors and sensei, went over to me to correct the uchi-mata that I had been taught just the year before at Tokai Uni by one of the few judoka there of similar build, the very same uchi-mata that finally allowed me to be able to use the technique with any form of success in live randori. Of course I tried to implement their comments, but some of the times it was just physically impossible for me...
And forget me doing a textbook tai-otoshi. I would either have to be standing more or less upright to have proper foot position, or be a mile away in order to get as low as prescribed.

cuivien wrote:just picking up on something that Hanon wrote here...

Size and body type not to mention psychological character will make all our judo waza vary to a degree, its the lore of biophysics. Non of us are built the same and no two actions can be replicated to the absolute identical action twice.

I cannot tell you how much I agree with this. I'm 6ft2 (190cm) and have comparatively long limbs. Of course my throws will be different than those of someone more compact, and 15-20cm shorter. While attending kangeiko at Kôdôkan winter 2010, I think somewhere around 7-8 different people, both regular visitors and sensei, went over to me to correct the uchi-mata that I had been taught just the year before at Tokai Uni by one of the few judoka there of similar build, the very same uchi-mata that finally allowed me to be able to use the technique with any form of success in live randori. Of course I tried to implement their comments, but some of the times it was just physically impossible for me...
And forget me doing a textbook tai-otoshi. I would either have to be standing more or less upright to have proper foot position, or be a mile away in order to get as low as prescribed.

I agree. The same notion can also apply to a champion teaching a clinic. I can safely write THE worst clinics on judo I have ever attended have been held by some of the greatest champions ever known in judo. One, they expect what they have as a tokui waza to be transferable to all others present and secondly most, not all, have been awful teachers?

If you think learning the gokyo from a mixture of sensei is a challenge wait until you try a kata clinic where EVERY bloomin sensei who comes to you says.. "That's very good, BUT, have you tried this" . By the end of the clinic you will have been shown 50 different methods of doing 10 different waza. You go home having learned only one thing. Confusion rules the judo world.

Can be a minefield. Your judo will be unique to you. You have to practice and learn the base of all the waza then build your own style and theme on said waza. One cannot and should not clone another individuals judo.

Mike