Atemi waza

Hanon wrote:

nomoremondays wrote:Thanks. I think I saw some elements of this in Kawaishi's book. What I have never been able to see is how the atemi waza is tied together with the tachiwaza aspect. Basically the ideas of combos and such. I have seen some videos but am unaware of their veracity. Would you be able to shed some light on that?

I am unsure that I understand your question? If you can expand it a little I will do my best to offer an answer.

Sorry and thanks,

Mike

nomoremondays wrote:AAAAAGH! What happened to my post. It said "New messages have been added while typing your reply. Please review your message" and then it disappeared!!

Hanon wrote:
If you only new how many long detailed post I have written only to see them disappear...Grrrrr. I know where you are coming from...
Mike

nomoremondays wrote:

Hanon wrote:
If you only new how many long detailed post I have written only to see them disappear...Grrrrr. I know where you are coming from...
Mike

Haha! Let me try some other questions. Maybe it was a sign from the judo gods that it was not a very good post
and thus consigned to rubbish!

I would think prefixing a throw with a strike changes the throw a bit. For example, if I hit uke's chin with my right palm heel before my osoto,
I would not necessary have to use my right tsurite hand the way i would in a regular right osoto. Since kuzushi can be achieved with strikes,
I would say that tsukuri also changes since hitting someone is at a 'longer' distance you dont need to enter the same way as you would
regularly do. Do you agree with the idea of that?

Jimgo wrote:Hi Mike, I am struck (pun intended) by the similarity between this waza and Goju karate which I trained in for a time. I don't mean to barrage you with questions but is there a connection between the two apart from being Japanese arts using the same terminology? Did one arise from the other? What influence did one have upon the development of the other?

Thank you very much for sharing this essay. Kind regards, Jim

Hanon wrote:

nomoremondays wrote:

Hanon wrote:
If you only new how many long detailed post I have written only to see them disappear...Grrrrr. I know where you are coming from...
Mike

Haha! Let me try some other questions. Maybe it was a sign from the judo gods that it was not a very good post
and thus consigned to rubbish!

I would think prefixing a throw with a strike changes the throw a bit. For example, if I hit uke's chin with my right palm heel before my osoto,
I would not necessary have to use my right tsurite hand the way i would in a regular right osoto. Since kuzushi can be achieved with strikes,
I would say that tsukuri also changes since hitting someone is at a 'longer' distance you dont need to enter the same way as you would
regularly do. Do you agree with the idea of that?

Yes.

That was easy!

Mike

PS, there can be more to it than that. But what you write is correct. I will explain as the thread develops8)

cuivien wrote:In my years of Taekwondo I've been exposed to a number of self defense combinations which tend to follow a structure of: block an attack -> one or several punches/kicks -> throw or takedown (-> finishing blow).


I'll give an example.
From frontal bearhug locking both arms towards your body, drop CoG, step back with right foot and push/strike towards front of thighs forcing your opponent's hip backwards.
From this, grab/underhook opponent's right arm with your left, step in again with right foot, rotate, and ô-goshi.

genetic judoka wrote:(hopefully) attached to this post is Hanon sensei's essay on atemi waza. let's see how this works out.

Hanon wrote:

cuivien wrote:In my years of Taekwondo I've been exposed to a number of self defense combinations which tend to follow a structure of: block an attack -> one or several punches/kicks -> throw or takedown (-> finishing blow).


I'll give an example.
From frontal bearhug locking both arms towards your body, drop CoG, step back with right foot and push/strike towards front of thighs forcing your opponent's hip backwards.
From this, grab/underhook opponent's right arm with your left, step in again with right foot, rotate, and ô-goshi.

Hiya,

I understand your points. Try to avoid the term "Block". One of the key components of judo is not to block but use the force against the person attacking. Nage no kata, seoinage being a classic example, if we block the waza its becomes a dead attack and reaction is then force. If we get out of the way and use the force of uke uke will, in reality, throw himself. 'All' tori has to do is make a shape for uke to sail over.

If we make a block against a large attacker he may well hit his target. tai sabaki and continue his force until that attacking force is spent is one of the keys to 'maximum efficiency with minimum effort'.

I understand what you mean and I am not being picky just trying to make you think about each and every word you use. Blocks are no no's for us.

Kindest regards,

Mike

On a point of generality maybe a word or two on atemi and its past part in kodokan judo?

Two basic notions:

One; An atemi as a diversionary action as a prelude to a throw then further atemi.
Two; An atemi that ends the attack with a decisive action, either killing or at least rendering the attacker unable to continue with any further attack

cuivien wrote:

Hanon wrote:

cuivien wrote:In my years of Taekwondo I've been exposed to a number of self defense combinations which tend to follow a structure of: block an attack -> one or several punches/kicks -> throw or takedown (-> finishing blow).


I'll give an example.
From frontal bearhug locking both arms towards your body, drop CoG, step back with right foot and push/strike towards front of thighs forcing your opponent's hip backwards.
From this, grab/underhook opponent's right arm with your left, step in again with right foot, rotate, and ô-goshi.

Hiya,

I understand your points. Try to avoid the term "Block". One of the key components of judo is not to block but use the force against the person attacking. Nage no kata, seoinage being a classic example, if we block the waza its becomes a dead attack and reaction is then force. If we get out of the way and use the force of uke uke will, in reality, throw himself. 'All' tori has to do is make a shape for uke to sail over.

If we make a block against a large attacker he may well hit his target. tai sabaki and continue his force until that attacking force is spent is one of the keys to 'maximum efficiency with minimum effort'.

I understand what you mean and I am not being picky just trying to make you think about each and every word you use. Blocks are no no's for us.

Kindest regards,

Mike

Hi Hanon.
I understand what you are saying. The above was primarily as an example of how the TKD "way" of self defense I've been exposed to works, and how it tries to incorporate both atemi and nage-waza...
And when doing the seoi-nage attack from NNK, actually upwards blocks in TKD are with an angle to the arm, so that they redirect the force instead of meeting it head-on :-)

But allow me, if you will, a question based on your earlier statement:

On a point of generality maybe a word or two on atemi and its past part in kodokan judo?

Two basic notions:

One; An atemi as a diversionary action as a prelude to a throw then further atemi.
Two; An atemi that ends the attack with a decisive action, either killing or at least rendering the attacker unable to continue with any further attack

in option one, I'm struggling a bit to see just how the first atemi is to be timed and set up. are you primarily thinking super quick evasion/tai-sabaki to get within range, by means of... say stepping on the outside of an attacking punch or kick?


regards,
Øyvind

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:(hopefully) attached to this post is Hanon sensei's essay on atemi waza. let's see how this works out.

Did I miss a list of references?

Ben

JudoStu wrote:I recognise a lot of techniques used from my Wado Ryu Karate days. Are they applied any differently in Judo?

Hanon wrote:Hiya,


Thanks for the feedback.

This is complex. You see there is atemi of old when laws and cultural behaviours where very different to todays. I need to explain. I think it of vital importance when learning, for example, the kime no kata, to understand that no one today would walk around with either a tanto not a katana, no one will walk up to you and hold both your wrists.

I am unsure if the 'exact' content was ever truly realistic? The idea behind learning such kata is not to copy the technique but master the principle behind it. A classic obvious example opf this in kime no kata would be tai sabaki, not to be in front of a blade, to step aside and avoid the force coming your way by an attacker. Timing, if tori begins to defend too quickly then this will open a window for uke to redirect his attack. Psychologically being used to having ones personal space invaded and being used to a physical contact etc.

In atemi attacks and defences There are few rules. few right or wrongs.

In the first broad type as under debate this has numerous options. Talking, the power of speech is a form of atemi. Non verbal communication is also atemi, knowing when to look passive or be assertive is also atemi. The primary principle behind a type one attack is to confuse and divert the attention of an attacker away from what you will do as a second action. I cannot tell you how or what first action to make not what the follow up could be as all these scenarios are so open to the action of the attacker. I am not avoiding giving you a specific answer, I sincerely believe there isn't one.

You actually give an example, this is one of millions. Think more of the principle behind the objective then practice with a partner asking him to make a variety of approaches toward you with a variety of holds or attacks. practice slowly to start with then begin to build a feel for the basic principle of action-reaction, or just take the initiative and attack. sen, sen no sen etc.

If we only had a tatami....two examples would explain the principle better than all my postulating here.

Keep the questions coming, bash away at this subject and lets see what we can tease out of this debate. Its the only way of training using this media.

Best wishes,

Mike

Hanon wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:(hopefully) attached to this post is Hanon sensei's essay on atemi waza. let's see how this works out.

Did I miss a list of references?

Ben

Things are going well. We had a great training session last night, I'm still all aglow about it.

Thank you for giving the primary source for the essay. I was not "grading it" in asking for references, just trying to figure out where all the knowledge of atemi in Judo comes from, as detailed written sources (out side of Japanese?) are not common if they exist at all.

Regards,

Ben



Hi Ben,



How are things with you?

The atemi waza article was an essay written by a pupil of mine who was going for yo dan exam. References where not required for such an essay.

Further, references may prove difficult as much of the content is direct knowledge from my sensei who where both taught budo at the pre WW11 DNBK, I fear a lot in the essay is not yet in the written form? Perhaps this could be a start to such a reference?

I posted my pupils essay here to start debate and that it is doing as you can see. Thanks for partaking, its nice to hear from you again.

Very best wishes,

Mike

JudoStu wrote:I recognise a lot of techniques used from my Wado Ryu Karate days. Are they applied any differently in Judo?

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

JudoStu wrote:I recognise a lot of techniques used from my Wado Ryu Karate days. Are they applied any differently in Judo?

Wasn't the founder of Wado Ryu a practitioner (perhaps menkyo) in a koryu ju jutsu? I'm thinking some form of Yoshin Ryu.

Ok, this from Wiki, but it jibes with other sources. Ōtsuka was a licensed Shindō Yōshin-ryū practitioner and a
student of Yōshin-ryū when he first met the Okinawan karate
master Gichin Funakoshi."

So no wonder, eh?

tom herold wrote:I do not want to be meddlesome ...
But maybe I can say something about the atemi-waza?

We do it in our training in everyday practise.
We do it in randori with full speed and full contact.

From my teacher I have got the so called "energy work".
It is nothing that would be "esoteric" or nonsens.

If we want to be successfully with atemi-waza, we have to do it perfectly, even in case of emergency.
Or especially then.

So we have to learn and to understand not only the bio-mechanical processes.
We have to learn how to make it work.
And therefore we need something that is in the chinese martial arts called "pictures".

These pictures are images, that allow us to use our cerebral motor cortex at its best.
No esoteric nonsens.
It is checkable on the mat, "hands on" in randori / sparring.

I find a pity that this knowledge has got lost extensively.


Oh ... I would like to add in a great hurry that I did not want to be smart-alecky.
I only do have a lot of experiences with such kind of "energy work" and I am unfortunately very experienced in real fights.

I for one would appreciate any input you are able to offer. I was particularly interested in your sentence.."We do it in our training in everyday practise. We do it in randori with full speed and full contact".
This sounds a challenge, can you elaborate on how you practice in randori?