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    Atemi waza

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    tom herold


    Posts : 56
    Join date : 2013-01-23

    Atemi waza - Page 3 Empty Re: Atemi waza

    Post by tom herold Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:36 am

    Thank you Hanon Sensei.
    Very Happy
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    johan smits


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    Atemi waza - Page 3 Empty Re: Atemi waza

    Post by johan smits Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:39 pm

    It is a bit late I realize but I only recently saw this interesting topic.

    The atemi-waza of Kodokan judo have always interested me but they never made a lot of sense to me, especially the solo exercises.
    If efficiency for fighting would have been the most important issue then, at least in my opinion, there were enough sources to take it from. From older schools of jujutsu which have very powerful atemi, to Western boxing and Funakoshi's karate.

    This has always puzzled me. That is until I learned a lot from the posts by several people who are posting here. As far as I understand it now judo was primarily an educational system with physical-, mental- health and development as most important pillars. Self-defense was another pillar but maybe not the most important.

    This line of thinking fits very well into the solo-exercises for atemi. I do not think fighting efficiency was the most important issue here. Physical development was, with training in atemi-waza at second place.
    I came to think this way when I did some research about the forerunner of physical therapy in the Netherlands. It was called “heilmassage” and “heilgynastiek” . This would translate as therapeutic massage and therapeutic gymnastics I guess. These systems (which may have originated in Germany) formed at least for a part the base from which physical therapy developed in my country.
    One part of this therapy was solo-exercises. Ssomething like chamber-gymnastics, a patient could do by him- or herself at home. Several of these health exercises have a lot in common with the solo-exercises for atemi from Kodokan.
    I guess that is a different way to look at atemi but maybe there is something in it.

    Happy landings.



    Jonesy
    Jonesy


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    Atemi waza - Page 3 Empty Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Jonesy Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:36 am

    Ude Ate

    Ashi Ate
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


    Posts : 1948
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    Location : the Holy See

    Atemi waza - Page 3 Empty Re: Atemi waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:57 am

    johan smits wrote:It is a bit late I realize but I only recently saw this interesting topic.

    The atemi-waza of Kodokan judo have always interested me but they never made a lot of sense to me, especially the solo exercises.
    If efficiency for fighting would have been the most important issue then, at least in my opinion, there were enough sources to take it from. From older schools of jujutsu which have very powerful atemi, to Western boxing and Funakoshi's karate.

    Hang on there, Johan. Since you are talking about "solo exercises" I am assuming you are referring to the SZKT. This 'kata' makes use of atemi. HOWEVER, this kata is NOT a shôbu-no-kata. In other words, the atemi in the form as they appear in there are not representations of realistic self-defense sequences. What it is, is an educational exercise, thus gymnastic. Per Kanô's intentions instead of taking the common Scandinavian gymnastics exercises which in terms of health were effective but had no other "real-life practical use", Kanô wanted to develop a replacement for those exercises which in addition to their health effect also could be applied in real life. Each, or most isolated moves could in some situation be applied. For some this is more unlikely then for other. For example, jumping up with both fists aimed above you, or with a fist hitting someone behind your shoulder, are rather unusual in terms of situations that occur in life fights.

    In karate though, the atemi are not used in this way but immediately represent fighting situation. Even if frequently exercising karate kata will have have health effects and might contribute to one's education, they were not created for the purpose of health and education but for improving skills.

    In judo, there are no kata which include all atemi practised in self-defense situations. Instead, there is a list of vulnerable points, and application of select atemi in self-defense kata such as kime-no-kata, kime-shiki, goshinjutsu ad joshi goshinhô. Now and then we see one of these atemi aimed kata vulnerable point, occur in those kata. The aim is not to learn those sequences as the only defenses in which judo applies atemi. Instead they should be regarded as isolated example, which one should practice in order to become sufficiently skilled so that one can apply that knowledge in similar yet different situations.



    johan smits wrote:It is a bit late I realize but I only recently saw this interesting topic.
    This has always puzzled me. That is until I learned a lot from the posts by several people who are posting here. As far as I understand it now judo was primarily an educational system with physical-, mental- health and development as most important pillars. Self-defense was another pillar but maybe not the most important.

    This line of thinking fits very well into the solo-exercises for atemi. I do not think fighting efficiency was the most important issue here. Physical development was, with training in atemi-waza at second place.
    I came to think this way when I did some research about the forerunner of physical therapy in the Netherlands. It was called “heilmassage” and “heilgynastiek” . This would translate as therapeutic massage and therapeutic gymnastics I guess. These systems (which may have originated in Germany) formed at least for a part the base from which physical therapy developed in my country.
    One part of this therapy was solo-exercises. Ssomething like chamber-gymnastics, a patient could do by him- or herself at home. Several of these health exercises have a lot in common with the solo-exercises for atemi from Kodokan.
    I guess that is a different way to look at atemi but maybe there is something in it.

    Happy landings.

    If I understand you well you seem to have spontaneously come to a better understanding now. However, the purpose of my post mainly was to point out that whille SZKT contains many judo atemi, it should not be interpreted as these being all of its atemi, nor as the only official modus of how to practise atemi.
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    johan smits


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    Atemi waza - Page 3 Empty Re: Atemi waza

    Post by johan smits Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:00 am

    CK, many thanks for your explanation.
    I was rummaging through a book on chamber-gymnastics in a secondhand bookshop in Leiden when I noticed the similarity of a lot of exercises to the SZKT. This triggered the thought that maybe these SZKT would be for training for not only atemi but something else.

    Besides that some time ago the ju no kata was compared to taijiquan which I found very interesting. I have never trained in ju no kata but practice taijiquan for some twenty-years by now.
    Many techniques of what are called the internal styles of Taijiquan, Baguaquan or Xingyquan do not seem very powerful, like for instance Shotokan karate. But they are when trained properly it just does not show. On a basic level a lot of these techniques seem to be striking or thrusting techniques, like atemi.
    But there is more to it.
    So I figured maybe the SZKT were on a basic level physical exercise or therapeutic exercise and there might be a higher level on which they could be used for internal training not unlike some of the Chinese styles.

    Happy landings.

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