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    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed May 29, 2013 7:42 am

    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Wed May 29, 2013 7:51 am

    Uki Goshi
    Taiobroshi
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    Post by Taiobroshi Wed May 29, 2013 7:57 am

    DOESN'T MATTER, HANSOKUMAKE FOR CONTACT BELOW THE OBI FOR WHITE

    Regardless, is there are any recognized technique with comparable motion for uke? Except for the slight downward force caused by tori positioning himself on top of uke, there isn't a whole lot of non-lateral force. Uke even tries to slap the mat and it does nothing, since there is little impending force to distribute from the ground impact. I've definitely seen this thread before with the exact same video. =P The forum is recycling gags...
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed May 29, 2013 8:10 am

    Taiobroshi wrote:DOESN'T MATTER, HANSOKUMAKE FOR CONTACT BELOW THE OBI FOR WHITE

    Regardless, is there are any recognized technique with comparable motion for uke? Except for the slight downward force caused by tori positioning himself on top of uke, there isn't a whole lot of non-lateral force. Uke even tries to slap the mat and it does nothing, since there is little impending force to distribute from the ground impact. I've definitely seen this thread before with the exact same video. =P The forum is recycling gags...

    I hope my question was not understood as whether this should score or not under current IJF rules.There is nothing prohibited about this in randori or in the dôjô. Please, separate IJF Refereeing Rules from judo randori and judo techniques.

    Yes, you are right, that the clip was also posted before on the old forum and that we do recycle some things. I actually went to find it because I needed it to explain some things to some students of mine, and I decided to post it again, since some new members might not have seen it and since the old forum is no longer searchable in the standard way.
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    Hanon


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    Post by Hanon Wed May 29, 2013 8:16 am

    Judo show? Cool

    Mike
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    Post by Taiobroshi Wed May 29, 2013 8:18 am

    ...I was joking- I thought the all caps were explicit enough. jocolor

    What was the nature of the lesson, if you care to share?
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    Post by tafftaz Wed May 29, 2013 8:58 am

    Hanon wrote:Judo show? Cool

    Mike

    Naughty, naughty Very Happy
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    Post by Quicksilver Wed May 29, 2013 10:19 am

    I definitely recall seeing this before and if I recall correctly, it was decided that the technique shown in that clip is less a single identifiable throw as such, so much as tori taking advantage of uke's momentum and quite literally swinging him around and dropping him? Though it does look like there is a bit of a tai-otoshi-like movement at the execution of the technique.


    Last edited by Quicksilver on Wed May 29, 2013 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed May 29, 2013 10:47 am

    Taiobroshi wrote:...I was joking- I thought the all caps were explicit enough. jocolor

    What was the nature of the lesson, if you care to share?

    I have not actually taught this class yet. It's upcoming. However, I sometimes teach classes that are entirely devoted to aspects of Hirano's judo. The reason for that is that Hirano did not just offer his expertise in certain techniques but added his own pedagogical insights and didactic approaches, which add or are different from Kôdôkan. One of his things are circular kuzushi, and he actually developed a kata of all these different circular approaches (not a kata with bowing to a jury and that sort of thing, obviously). The clip is also interest, as one could somehow attempt to link it to a circular movement that occurs in Itsutsu-no-kata. It's a bit complicated because really Itsutsu-no-kata is not about the kind of ordinary mechanics, but even in what it does and does depict, mechanics are obviously used and therefore these mechanics are also applicable to situations in judo, in particular if one aims for seiryoku zen'y kokumin taiiku, and doing that IS in the line with Itsutsu-no-kata. Sorry, I know that what I just wrote may seem like it makes no sense at all. Another example will illustrate this better. The mere mechanics of the second movement can be related to the uki-otoshi principle (originally hiki-otoshi), that is a lot easier to see. Uki-otoshi, in addition is also a specific throw in Kôdôkan-jûdô. The third movement has sometimes been linked to the yoko-guruma principle, but that is mechanically not as satisfactory as the movement in this clip. What is interesting though is that as a throw, or at least a throw with that specific kind of kuzushi (the spinning around), contrary to uki-otoshi and yoko-guruma, has never made it to an actual throw in judo. From there, there is a lot of room of exploring this more and experimenting if a solid tsukuri/kuzushi derived from that, can have a realistic place in judo.
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed May 29, 2013 2:43 pm

    Quicksilver wrote:I definitely recall seeing this before and if I recall correctly, it was decided that the technique shown in that clip is less a single identifiable throw as such, so much as tori taking advantage of uke's momentum and quite literally swinging him around and dropping him? Though it does look like there is a bit of a tai-otoshi-like movement at the execution of the technique.

    Unless you would like to call it ... Herikoputā-nage ! cheers

    Or remember Bruce Lee bringing back the "Sick man of Asia" calligraphy to the karate school ?!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aTbfxwdYQo

    Minute 03'33", Enjoy !!

    And of course in the beginning there's the famous sentence "Whenever you're ready, I'll take on any Japanese here", the sentence to use whenever you visit the Kôdôkan, LOL !! Very Happy
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    Post by Quicksilver Wed May 29, 2013 5:31 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    Unless you would like to call it ... Herikoputā-nage ! cheers

    Or remember Bruce Lee bringing back the "Sick man of Asia" calligraphy to the karate school ?!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aTbfxwdYQo

    Minute 03'33", Enjoy !!

    And of course in the beginning there's the famous sentence "Whenever you're ready, I'll take on any Japanese here", the sentence to use whenever you visit the Kôdôkan, LOL !! Very Happy

    Please excuse my obtusity, but, respectfully, though I appreciate that you are being ironic I am unsure how to interpret this with relation to the topic at hand? Embarassed
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    Post by medo Wed May 29, 2013 6:15 pm




    Please excuse my obtusity, but, respectfully, though I appreciate that you are being ironic I am unsure how to interpret this with relation to the topic at hand? Embarassed [/quote]

    The circular spinning of two dummies at 3 33

    I must have watched Bruce Lee hundreds of times there's actually a picture of Kano on the wall amazing what you pick up each time you watch a repeat.
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    Post by Quicksilver Wed May 29, 2013 6:25 pm

    medo wrote:


    Please excuse my obtusity, but, respectfully, though I appreciate that you are being ironic I am unsure how to interpret this with relation to the topic at hand? Embarassed

    The circular spinning of two dummies at 3 33
    [/quote]

    I got the reference, I just wasn't sure what was meant by it.
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    Post by medo Wed May 29, 2013 6:46 pm

    As a 60/65kg player I have been here a few times in randori, with large players normally swinging me around to attempt ashiwaza, legs tend to leave the mat to avoid the ashiwaza attempt, main objective is to drop low to ground try to grab legs or whatever.

    It ain't very nice! CK hope your not looking to train your heavy weights to dump your lightweights with it. Crying or Very sad

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    Post by Cichorei Kano Thu May 30, 2013 2:08 am

    medo wrote:As a 60/65kg player I have been here a few times in randori, with large players normally swinging me around to attempt ashiwaza, legs tend to leave the mat to avoid the ashiwaza attempt, main objective is to drop low to ground try to grab legs or whatever.

    It ain't very nice! CK hope your not looking to train your heavy weights to dump your lightweights with it. Crying or Very sad


    On the contrary, maybe something for lightweights to train in to learn how to dump their heavyweights !

    All the kidding aside, these movements illustrate some important physics principles that apply to jûdô. Jûdô was not created by scientists, but science underpins what happens in jûdô. Because the transfer of technical skills beyond some basics is very difficult in jûdô, there is a place for science in there since through comprehension of those underpinning principles the skill transfer may be facilitated. Specifically, when kuzushi is applied in a straight direction, the efficiency is limited, because human being are more skilled and able to regain balance. However, when kuzushi is applied circular, the efficiency is increased because the ability of human beings to recover from sideways loss of balance is very poor. This is something which aikidô has instinctively understood, though in neither discipline was it intentionally infused as a result of scientific research. But there is thus clearly a scientific explanation for it. Both videos, the one with the throw, as well as the sequence in the Bruce Lee movie show this in an extreme way. There is also the issue of centripetal force, but anyhow. If tori represents the center, and makes a small movement, uke the more the distance from tori needs to move at much faster speed. This is quite different from what happens in linear kuzushi. In other words, issues such as angular momentum are very important in jûdô, and many of the best technical jûdôists have instinctively understood this without realizing it.
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    Post by medo Thu May 30, 2013 2:26 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    medo wrote:As a 60/65kg player I have been here a few times in randori, with large players normally swinging me around to attempt ashiwaza, legs tend to leave the mat to avoid the ashiwaza attempt, main objective is to drop low to ground try to grab legs or whatever.

    It ain't very nice! CK hope your not looking to train your heavy weights to dump your lightweights with it. Crying or Very sad


    On the contrary, maybe something for lightweights to train in to learn how to dump their heavyweights !

    All the kidding aside, these movements illustrate some important physics principles that apply to jûdô. Jûdô was not created by scientists, but science underpins what happens in jûdô. Because the transfer of technical skills beyond some basics is very difficult in jûdô, there is a place for science in there since through comprehension of those underpinning principles the skill transfer may be facilitated. Specifically, when kuzushi is applied in a straight direction, the efficiency is limited, because human being are more skilled and able to regain balance. However, when kuzushi is applied circular, the efficiency is increased because the ability of human beings to recover from sideways loss of balance is very poor. This is something which aikidô has instinctively understood, though in neither discipline was it intentionally infused as a result of scientific research. But there is thus clearly a scientific explanation for it. Both videos, the one with the throw, as well as the sequence in the Bruce Lee movie show this in an extreme way. There is also the issue of centripetal force, but anyhow. If tori represents the center, and makes a small movement, uke the more the distance from tori needs to move at much faster speed. This is quite different from what happens in linear kuzushi. In other words, issues such as angular momentum are very important in jûdô, and many of the best technical jûdôists have instinctively understood this without realizing it.

    Kenshiro Abbe and kyshindo "circles and the universe" all a bit above me. The BJC Judoka magazine has been doing a few historic pieces on him never met him myself but have met many older than me that absolutely swear by him... did you want me to post these articles.
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Thu May 30, 2013 2:31 am

    medo wrote:
    Kenshiro Abbe and kyshindo "circles and the universe" all a bit above me. The BJC Judoka magazine has been doing a few historic pieces on him never met him myself but have met many older than me that absolutely swear by him... did you want me to post these articles.

    Sure, why not ? There are some former pupils of Abe Kenshirô on the forum here and historic documents are always welcome. Be aware though, I was not talking about KSD, which is also a philosophy. I was merely making a reference to physics and biomechanics which essentially are the nuts and bolts of jûdô, and which are tangible without any knowledge or interest for its philosophy.
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    Post by medo Thu May 30, 2013 2:56 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Kenshiro Abbe and kyshindo "circles and the universe" all a bit above me. The BJC Judoka magazine has been doing a few historic pieces on him never met him myself but have met many older than me that absolutely swear by him... did you want me to post these articles.

    Sure, why not ? There are some former pupils of Abe Kenshirô on the forum here and historic documents are always welcome. Be aware though, I was not talking about KSD, which is also a philosophy. I was merely making a reference to physics and biomechanics which essentially are the nuts and bolts of jûdô, and which are tangible without any knowledge or interest for its philosophy.

    Yes thought I was a bit of the mark, but as soon as someone says circles and centrefugal force I have had this explained to me from the early days linked with the legend of Abbe sensei, thats this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenshiro_Abbe as I believe there was two similarly named around.

    Links to series here
    http://www.judoka.britishjudocouncil.org/issue/16/december-2012-issue-119/284/the-life-of-kenshiro-abe.html

    http://www.judoka.britishjudocouncil.org/issue/17/february-2013-issue-120/310/the-life-of-kenshiro-abe-.html

    http://www.judoka.britishjudocouncil.org/issue/18/april-2013-issue-121/338/the-life-of-kenshiro-abe.html

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    Post by wdax Thu May 30, 2013 2:58 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:However, when kuzushi is applied circular, the efficiency is increased because the ability of human beings to recover from sideways loss of balance is very poor. This is something which aikidô has instinctively understood, though in neither discipline was it intentionally infused as a result of scientific research. But there is thus clearly a scientific explanation for it. Both videos, the one with the throw, as well as the sequence in the Bruce Lee movie show this in an extreme way. There is also the issue of centripetal force, but anyhow. If tori represents the center, and makes a small movement, uke the more the distance from tori needs to move at much faster speed. This is quite different from what happens in linear kuzushi. In other words, issues such as angular momentum are very important in jûdô, and many of the best technical jûdôists have instinctively understood this without realizing it.

    Just two examples and one remark (because of very limited time):
    - This is exactly the way uchi-mata works in Nage-no-Kata
    - We find this principle in the third action of Itsutsu-no-Kata
    - These ideas are very often found in Mifunes judo, specially in the Nage-waza-ura-no-Kata and his O-guruma
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    Richard Riehle


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    Post by Richard Riehle Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:17 am

    Mifune definitely understood the principle of circular motion as evidenced by the waza he invented and favored.  For example, O-guruma illustrates this idea even though most people who try it do get it wrong.
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    Post by tafftaz Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:23 am

    I agree Richard. A lot of people kyu and dan grades alike who say that o guruma
    is their tokui waza are sometimes talking out of their backside.
    To me it is one of the most difficult techniques to master and most judoka do not realise this fact.
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    Post by NBK Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:43 am

    Forget the helicopter, that doesn't change the basic throw, it's just wasted motion.  The throw could have been done within 10 degrees, not 720 degrees, with the same motion and result.

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