Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

Fritz wrote:WDax article is a very nice compact abstract/collection of the results of these discussions - thanks to wdax for this insightful article

I for myself have choosen to stay away from this "discussion", but IF you throw me in, then I think I must make the following statemants.

1.) I almost completely disagree with "Tom Herold" about the nature and mindset of Kodokan-Judo and self-defence. Maybe in private he offers different opinions, compared to what he writes in public. But I don´t know him as a person and I don´t feel any desire to change this.

2.) I almost agree 100% with "sodo" about "selective interpretation" of fragments of texts written by Kano to underpin and legitimate one´s own position. Some call this the "invention of tradition", but this has nothing to do with historical interest or research.

3.) I know very well, were to find the misinterpretations and misunderstanding of "Tom Herold" and his followers - said article about the three levels of judo is one of them - but I don´t feel it makes any sense to involve myself in a discussion about it.

I have to teach a 2-day seminar starting in 20 minutes. Maybe tomorrow night I´ll be back.

Gentlemen,

I would like --again-- to remind about a very important statement by Jon Z. in another post, nl. that Kanô an Kanô's thoughts about jûdô evolved. In several discussions that are going on on this forum people are insufficiently appreciating that.

When Kanô in his 1889 lecture or later texts referred to shôbu-hô this is not really the same as what many people TODAY mean when they refer to teaching self-defense in jûdô. When today in the West people talk about self-defense in jûdô they are almost always thinking about atemi and weapons, in any case something different than randori. For some strange reason they seem to argue that the skills learnt during randori are not self-defense but sports jûdô. While, obviously there are many ADDITIONAL skills besides that what is allowed in randori, that what is included in randori no doubt too is self-defense. It only is sport jûdô when you subject that what you do to a set of sportive rules such as scores and refereeing.

There are various reasons for semantic shifts throughout the history and evolution of jûdô. For example, when the Kôdôkan joshi-bu was established Kanô wondered how jûdô would best benefit women. No doubt that there were paternalistic attitudes involved but that really is not the core of the matter here. The core of the matter is that jûdô as it was going to be taught to women was sort of redefined. In the absence of shiai and randori at first, labels (even if unspoken) were attached to parts of jûdô that were considered suitable, such as jûdô for health reasons, but also jûdô self-defense, which at that point really for these women was merely kata, i.e. kime-shiki and starting around 1928 Sei-ryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku. In this way "self-defense" and randori/shiai-skills were different with regard to the joshi-bu. This was more an empirical phase than representative of jûdô's philosophy.

There is little doubt that by 1980 when several years of European women's championships had taken place and the first female world championships were formed that several of these top athletes merely with their ... "sports randori skills" and without ever having learnt kime-shiki SZKT, kime-no-kata or goshinjutsu could effectively defend themselves against an average male person who is not himself a trained martial artist. In other words, the separation between randori/shiai and self-defense that many apply is partly artificial and not at all a correct reflection of what Kanô meant when he was talking about shôbu-hô. Only to get the COMPLETE plethora of what jûdô has to offer to defend yourself, or to get the best possible jûdô training for means of self-defense, randori-/shiai-skills will need to be completed with techniques that are not allowed in randori/shiai and that per Kanô's wishes should be practised only in the form of kata, that is to say 'prescribed', 'agreed' rather than 'improvised'. Referring those techniques does not at all mean that they should be practised in 'ceremonial' form or serial form, but simply in non-improvisatory form.

I would strongly urge that people who discuss jûdô as/and self-defense NOT take a view that randori-/shiai-skills are not self-defense. From the moment you drop tapping out and scores, randori-/shiai-skills are as much jûdô self-defense as it is to kick someone's Glockenspiel.

May I add to this discussion a reminescence of mine. I was 14 and among youngest of the group that started training Judo. We got yellow belts around christmas time. In february a fellow from the same beginnerscourse (wiry and about 40) came to the practice. There had been an argument his mate had stated pushing him. He didn't resist, but went down and executed tomoe nage. I would most definetly label this as self defence. I would most definetely state that practice of Judo was what made this possible. So as CK states you learn self defence when you train Judo.

I'm sad that Fritz et al do not listen what is discussed. The main point in Judo is that it was never intended to make one the perfect solider. The aim of the practice is not to make one a killing machine. Military training is for making supertroopers. In Judo we learn that through training and practice we gan be better at controlling our adversaries even to the level where we can aticipate his responses and reactions. But we also learn the humbling lesson that no matter what, how much and where we train there is always someone there at some point of time that is going to beat us. I think that was the attitude of the samurai going to the battle. I agree it is a subtle difference but for me it is something that you can not be take away from Judo without making it something else.

wdax wrote:

Fritz wrote:WDax article is a very nice compact abstract/collection of the results of these discussions - thanks to wdax for this insightful article

I for myself have choosen to stay away from this "discussion", but IF you throw me in, then I think I must make the following statemants.

1.) I almost completely disagree with "Tom Herold" about the nature and mindset of Kodokan-Judo and self-defence. Maybe in private he offers different opinions, compared to what he writes in public. But I don´t know him as a person and I don´t feel any desire to change this.

2.) I almost agree 100% with "sodo" about "selective interpretation" of fragments of texts written by Kano to underpin and legitimate one´s own position. Some call this the "invention of tradition", but this has nothing to do with historical interest or research.

3.) I know very well, were to find the misinterpretations and misunderstanding of "Tom Herold" and his followers - said article about the three levels of judo is one of them - but I don´t feel it makes any sense to involve myself in a discussion about it.

I have to teach a 2-day seminar starting in 20 minutes. Maybe tomorrow night I´ll be back.

Thank you

atb

sodo

Yet again this has become a very complex thread with many different subjects being debated under one thread.

1) Judo in 2013 is a sport. Practiced by the vast majority as a sport. To that end learning judo as a self defence is not the wisest way to learn a self defence.

2) We need to define what we mean by self defence. SD in terms of a professional soldier, police officer, security guard, general adult public, children, office workers, office executives etc, the list is endless. SD for each of these groups differ.

3) I do not believe now nor ever have believed self defence can be taught and learned by a population as a whole. By that I mean there is not one SD to fit ALL GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

4) SD in relation to most physical combat activities is no guarantee that the person will be able to become proficient in SD in terms of a street attack. I will write again SD is much more about the person and his character than the combat system he or she chooses to learn.

5) Some combat activities may well prove more effective than others no doubt about it and I am NOT going to get into a dick measuring contest about whose system is best.

6) CK sensei mentions a world class female judoka would be able to defend her self. I agree with some additions. The character of any world champion is the type of character who excels in self determination, concentration, observation and is highly competitive and does not shy away from a challenge. Add to this the time and dedication needed to study to a world championship level and even a top swimmer would be far better at SD that Joe public.

7) Define what type of SD is needed. What circumstances is one likely to need to defend oneself.

Where one lives, ones country, ones neighbourhood and ones culture will all help toward gearing to asses the needs of ones self protection. In Europe we don't need to worry to much about guns, in the Americas this is not the case. IN some EU countries there is a culture of using a knife in others this is not the case.

9) What are we defending? If a person is walking down a road and an attacker askes for his wallet or her handbag. Give it every time and walk away. This is not generally the way modern attackers operate. PLEASE remember this vital factor. Most mugging or street attack is not spontaneous. The attacker will have watched his victim, prepared the time and spot to attack and attack from the rear NOT the front.
The attacker will have made mental and physical preparation for the attack. The victim while walking home may be thinking about what's for dinner being totally unprepared. Now the unprepared victim is at a grave disadvantage. panic, the flight and run syndrome or the curl up into a ball and pretend its not happening syndrome, rabbit or hedgehog. Ones heart rate rises to the point of hyperventilation causing some to feint, wet themselves or dirty soil the underwear. Most shake and most panic with a massive rush of adrenaline causing all sorts of psychological effects not to mention the physical ones. There is not QUICK FIX FOR THIS. The practitioner of some full combat arts will be better at control than others, many will react in the same way.
The street is not a dojo and the attacker is not going to rei wait for hajime, take hold and fight for grips.
The speed and devastation of being attacked in the street is not an experience most human beings deal with very well. Forget the cinema. The cinema is entertainment.

10)A child walking home from school on his or her own is a victim. Period.

11) Most average people walking home from work are victims. Not even great masters of martial arts are infallible. Street crime is not play, cant be treated like play and is very VERY difficult to prepare some one against.

I am aware of these situations due to two significant situations. A) In my professional capacity I have counselled, either as individuals or in groups, adults and children who have been attacked or harmed. B) I have taught troops SD for over 20 years and received vital feedback from those who, thank heavens, returned after going into an LZ.

I have refused to teach courses in SD to the police, prison service, women's guilds, victims of rape. The list is wide and varied.

I HAVE agreed to give lectures on SD and self preservation to all those groups and I have agreed to teach SD and restraining techniques to law enforcement officers providing these courses where lengthy and before a member stopped they passed a small test.

I find it highly irresponsible to teach judo as a self defence. I find it just as irresponsible to teach courses to the public in SD. To me it is often going to give the pupil a false sense of confidence where said pupil will not take care of themselves and some will actually go into situations knowing there is danger with a sort of morbid idea of try me out! Fatal. I wont be a part of it.

Can judo waza be used in a SD situation. Yes. How long would that training take? No idea but certainly many many years. Is there a more effective manner of learning an SD than Judo? Yes. Does learning any system of SD mean one is safe or even safer, not necessarily. So many factors need to be taken into careful understanding.

Massive subject.

Mike

Excellent post Hanon

Hanon wrote:
(...)

2) We need to define what we mean by self defence. SD in terms of a professional soldier, police officer, security guard, general adult public, children, office workers, office executives etc, the list is endless. SD for each of these groups differ.

While not directly relevant, I was reminded of what my Taekwondo teacher the very first night of practice said (I had joined via a public demonstration a week or so before):
Teacher: "Do you know what the very best form of self defence is?"
Random students, ranging from age 7-8 to 18-ish, give various answers such as "groinkick" and "carrying a gun".
Teacher: "All wrong. The best form of self defence is to not be there."

Took me a while before I understood what he meant.

cuivien wrote:Excellent post Hanon

Hanon wrote:
(...)

2) We need to define what we mean by self defence. SD in terms of a professional soldier, police officer, security guard, general adult public, children, office workers, office executives etc, the list is endless. SD for each of these groups differ.

While not directly relevant, I was reminded of what my Taekwondo teacher the very first night of practice said (I had joined via a public demonstration a week or so before):
Teacher: "Do you know what the very best form of self defence is?"
Random students, ranging from age 7-8 to 18-ish, give various answers such as "groinkick" and "carrying a gun".
Teacher: "All wrong. The best form of self defence is to not be there."

Took me a while before I understood what he meant.

Bingo and ippon. I say to people the best form of self defence is not to place yourself in a position where you may need it. This is not what young testosterone average people want to hear though. Look, it human nature to fight and show feathers, pout that chest and make ones mark, its animal behaviour and after all we are animals.

Coming back to your teachers point. This is one of the things I call real self defence, its more about education and how we can avoid possible problems in a given society with known problems or problem areas.

I still maintain one of the best self defence systems in the world is where you are born and how you are raised and under what circumstances. grow up in some of the worlds ghettos and by the time you reach 22 you are either expert at running or good at self defence. Judoka are used to taking a bashing but not the sort of bashing seen in MMA. To begin to test ones self defence enter that hexagon and face a seasoned MMA'er. Many of us can give a good punch, kick, knee or elbow how many can TAKE one.

The reason I avoid situations like the plague is not that I am just a coward but I truly know and understand just how fights can end. One in prison the other in the hospital or cemetery. I am too old for that crap. If I sense it going down I am off like a shot. Off before it even starts.

I totally accept that there are times when we don't have the option to walk away. I have won some AND lost some of those encounters. Neither scenarios have been nice and all had the potential for a real life disaster. Can be a very steep learning curve and some don't walk away from it.

Mike

Hi Fritz,

Maybe "sodo" should read carefully and try to understand the article provided by "wdax" in the German "Judo Magazine" 02/13,
where is very clear stated that self defense is one of three aims of Kodokan Judo...

I have not read the article but I was graciously sent a link to the whole document, which makes very interesting reading, altough I have only managed about a third of the nearly 100 page book it is well reasearched and as far as I can tell an accurate (as possible) interpretaion of the facts as they are known and a lot more reliable than the info on Judoinfo.com.
I do not knwo if this publication is available in English but I am sure it would be of great help to many judoka here on the forum who have an interest in judo history but have problems following the "professionals" like Cuivien, Sam, NBK, JonZ (and others).

Up to this point I must agree with the author, if he doesn't know what he meant, then nobopdy does , that there is no basis in this book that would back up your or Tom's arguments.

WDax article is a very nice compact abstract/collection of the results of these discussions - thanks to wdax for this insightful article ;-) )

I agree that Wolfgang has done an excelent job of presenting a clear and easy to read summary of the History of judo, I would think that because of the careful wording and attention to detail, especially differentiating between fact, heresay and probability. That he has not based this work solely on posts from a German forum but on much deeper research.


atb

sodo

Hanon wrote:Yet again this has become a very complex thread with many different subjects being debated under one thread.

1) Judo in 2013 is a sport. Practiced by the vast majority as a sport. To that end learning judo as a self defence is not the wisest way to learn a self defence.

2) We need to define what we mean by self defence. SD in terms of a professional soldier, police officer, security guard, general adult public, children, office workers, office executives etc, the list is endless. SD for each of these groups differ.

3) I do not believe now nor ever have believed self defence can be taught and learned by a population as a whole. By that I mean there is not one SD to fit ALL GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

4) SD in relation to most physical combat activities is no guarantee that the person will be able to become proficient in SD in terms of a street attack. I will write again SD is much more about the person and his character than the combat system he or she chooses to learn.

5) Some combat activities may well prove more effective than others no doubt about it and I am NOT going to get into a dick measuring contest about whose system is best.

6) CK sensei mentions a world class female judoka would be able to defend her self. I agree with some additions. The character of any world champion is the type of character who excels in self determination, concentration, observation and is highly competitive and does not shy away from a challenge. Add to this the time and dedication needed to study to a world championship level and even a top swimmer would be far better at SD that Joe public.

7) Define what type of SD is needed. What circumstances is one likely to need to defend oneself.

Where one lives, ones country, ones neighbourhood and ones culture will all help toward gearing to asses the needs of ones self protection. In Europe we don't need to worry to much about guns, in the Americas this is not the case. IN some EU countries there is a culture of using a knife in others this is not the case.

9) What are we defending? If a person is walking down a road and an attacker askes for his wallet or her handbag. Give it every time and walk away. This is not generally the way modern attackers operate. PLEASE remember this vital factor. Most mugging or street attack is not spontaneous. The attacker will have watched his victim, prepared the time and spot to attack and attack from the rear NOT the front.
The attacker will have made mental and physical preparation for the attack. The victim while walking home may be thinking about what's for dinner being totally unprepared. Now the unprepared victim is at a grave disadvantage. panic, the flight and run syndrome or the curl up into a ball and pretend its not happening syndrome, rabbit or hedgehog. Ones heart rate rises to the point of hyperventilation causing some to feint, wet themselves or dirty soil the underwear. Most shake and most panic with a massive rush of adrenaline causing all sorts of psychological effects not to mention the physical ones. There is not QUICK FIX FOR THIS. The practitioner of some full combat arts will be better at control than others, many will react in the same way.
The street is not a dojo and the attacker is not going to rei wait for hajime, take hold and fight for grips.
The speed and devastation of being attacked in the street is not an experience most human beings deal with very well. Forget the cinema. The cinema is entertainment.

10)A child walking home from school on his or her own is a victim. Period.

11) Most average people walking home from work are victims. Not even great masters of martial arts are infallible. Street crime is not play, cant be treated like play and is very VERY difficult to prepare some one against.

I am aware of these situations due to two significant situations. A) In my professional capacity I have counselled, either as individuals or in groups, adults and children who have been attacked or harmed. B) I have taught troops SD for over 20 years and received vital feedback from those who, thank heavens, returned after going into an LZ.

I have refused to teach courses in SD to the police, prison service, women's guilds, victims of rape. The list is wide and varied.

I HAVE agreed to give lectures on SD and self preservation to all those groups and I have agreed to teach SD and restraining techniques to law enforcement officers providing these courses where lengthy and before a member stopped they passed a small test.

I find it highly irresponsible to teach judo as a self defence. I find it just as irresponsible to teach courses to the public in SD. To me it is often going to give the pupil a false sense of confidence where said pupil will not take care of themselves and some will actually go into situations knowing there is danger with a sort of morbid idea of try me out! Fatal. I wont be a part of it.

Can judo waza be used in a SD situation. Yes. How long would that training take? No idea but certainly many many years. Is there a more effective manner of learning an SD than Judo? Yes. Does learning any system of SD mean one is safe or even safer, not necessarily. So many factors need to be taken into careful understanding.

Massive subject.

Mike

Hi Mike,

these are all very valid points, maybe you should start a new thread in the SD section using this post as a starter.

Funny how this thread has quietened down after Wolfgang's post

atb

sodo

sodo wrote:
Funny how this thread has quietened down after Wolfgang's post

I noticed. I wonder why though

cuivien wrote:

sodo wrote:
Funny how this thread has quietened down after Wolfgang's post

I noticed. I wonder why though

Mike

I'm glad I didn't close this thread. the issues resolved themselves quite nicely, once facts started being presented.

genetic judoka wrote:I'm glad I didn't close this thread. the issues resolved themselves quite nicely, once facts started being presented.

Maybe it´s not a bad idea to add some facts to the topic. The title of the thread was chosen a bit unfortunate.

In 1889 Kano said that Kodokan-Judo has three goals:

• learning to defend oneself and others
  
• physical education
  
• moral and intellectual education

This was completely inline with the circumstances of the late Meiji-period. Japan needed:

• a strong army to defend itself and for the expansion to the asian mainland
  
• healthy people = strong soldiers and workers (no physical education for girls planned in those days)
  
• smart people to catch up the west in science and technology
  
• patriotism and national spirit ("moral education")

So Kano offered an educational system which fitted perfectly to the needs of the nation. At the same time he countered the arguments (f.ex. danger of injury) of the committee, that had researched different Jujutsu- and Kenjutsu-styles for their suitability as part of the school-curriculum.

About 30 years later Kano formulated seiryoku-zenyo and jita-kyoei as the "highest" goals of Judo. He then wrote about Three levels of Judo:

• learning defence against attack
  
• physical and mental (=intellectual+moral) education
  
• self-perfection and benefit for society

Consistantly the randori and shiai-rules should reflect each of these points. Well, for the last point it is difficult and the rules were first set up before seiryoku-zenyo and jita-kyoei, so the rules followed the idea, that Kodokan-Judo is a system of fighting as well as physical and moral education.

Kano emphasized that following the idea of physical education:

• the players should be pushed to use many different techniques (balanced development of the body)
  
• tachi-waza is used more then ne-waza (because Kano believed, that it´s better for physical education)
  
• rules must minimize the risk of injury

Following the idea of Judo being a system of combat and should develop skills helpful in real fighting:

• points are awarded, when the opponent is completely overwhelmed ("symbolic death")
  
• tachi-waza is more important then ne-waza (see the "Kosen-debate" with Oda)
  
• one should not stand bend over, because if you do in a real fight you can easily be beaten in the neck or kicked in the face

Following the idea of Judo being a system of moral education and character-building

• the spirit of fighting should be taken into account when judging a bout.

I think it´s fascinating, how consistent the rules reflect all three aspects of Judo´s goals. I think it´s worth thinking, if these ideas are still represented in the current shiai-rules. To restore these ideas would help judo maybe more then changing the rules to please spectators. But this was IMHO not possible in this thread, because it was an off-shot from another thread.

For those who can read german I attach an article, I have written in 2011. All others may want to read an article by Syd Hoare:
http://www.sydhoare.com/development.pdf

wdax wrote:one should not stand bend over, because if you do in a real fight you can easily be beaten in the neck or kicked in the face

Exactly this was my point starting the thread. We have to be aware what might happen in a real fight and we have to avoid things
which then would be unhealty and dangerous for ourself...

Fritz wrote:

wdax wrote:one should not stand bend over, because if you do in a real fight you can easily be beaten in the neck or kicked in the face

Exactly this was my point starting the thread. We have to be aware what might happen in a real fight and we have to avoid things
which then would be unhealty and dangerous for ourself...

Hi Fritz,

You are correct to a degree. The single point Dax sensei mentions is an important point and one I spend an awful lot of time teaching my pupils. So many judoka after completing the kake phase allow their heads to go down and their butts to go back, this is dangerous for the back and in terms of self defence it is dangerous for tori as tori may get a punch in the mouth however.....It is a wise action in judo to follow down into ne waza. I was taught to do this after some months. Throw and follow down. Even of the ref shouts ippon, tori should still be in control of uke.

There are zero golden rules in SD. It is rather best to avoid going to the ground in a street fight. Far better and safer to end the fight with tori standing and uke staying put on the floor. One never knows what's coming next?

As for being self defence minded in any other circumstances, Well I cant think of one? No average street attacker will approach you and take hold of you by the lapel and arm. Close proximity in a street fight means you are in range of kicks, knees, elbows, hands, head, etc. To this end in terms of todays judo as soon as hajime is called is not about self defence at all.

So yes, you are correct but and its a major but, to what degree you take your hypothesis.

Self defence is practiced wearing average clothing. No judogi at all. That factor alone would cause most judoka a problem in trying to use judo as an effective SD. Most judoka don't learn atemi waza either so throws, arm locks and strangles are their only weapons. To the average judoka judo is a close combat sport and in a self defence scenario close contact is to be avoided if possible unless one is on the attack or defending. Its very complex.

Mike

Fritz wrote:

wdax wrote:one should not stand bend over, because if you do in a real fight you can easily be beaten in the neck or kicked in the face

Exactly this was my point starting the thread. We have to be aware what might happen in a real fight and we have to avoid things
which then would be unhealty and dangerous for ourself...

you are picking out one sentence or commentamong hundreds of thousands to make a point that is not backed up by 99% of the other comments that Kano made.

It is part of teaching judo is also teaching some of the history, it starts with the Rei, keeping your eyes on your partner to he cannot surprise you etc.., this is not about streetfighting it is about the history of judo and it's thechniques.

atb

sodo

Hanon wrote:It is a wise action in judo to follow down into ne waza. I was taught to do this after some months. Throw and follow down. Even of the ref shouts ippon, tori should still be in control of uke.

Thats right, but to question is how we do that...
We can do throwing down and rolling "cool" over Uke and landing at the end below him - according to current rule interpretation a very fine, spectacular looking thing
or we can try to obtain a control position after the throw, a position, from where we can stand up very quickly, Uke may not grasp our
legs to prevent this.

Well I cant think of one? No average street attacker will approach you and take hold of you by the lapel and arm. Close proximity in a street fight means you are in range of kicks, knees, elbows, hands, head, etc. To this end in terms of todays judo as soon as hajime is called is not about self defence at all.

Maybe that should lead us to think a little bit about Kumi-Kata and maintaining distance
regarding the attacking range of the opponent and ours. Maybe under this viewpoint this close fancy cross grip is not the first choose, maybe
hooking an arm around the neck of Uke is not so clever too? Maybe the controlling via standard kumi kata, keeping the head not to near to the
oppenent is the best at this fighting range. Maybe - if such thoughts would be in the minds of the judo practitioners -
there were no necessity for this detailed special competition rules regarding where and how to grip?

Self defence is practiced wearing average clothing. No judogi at all. That factor alone would cause most judoka a problem in trying to use judo as an effective SD. Most judoka don't learn atemi waza either so throws, arm locks and strangles are their only weapons.

Yes, but look at the kata. I was told preferably not to grasp the fabric doing nage-no-kata. So here we can learn to throw without the need to have
stable sleeves. The intersting point is how to transfer the knowledge learned by the kata into remaining practice...
Maybe it not wrong, to put the jackets off from time to time and then do randori.
At this background of your considerations, maybe its very insightful to do some atemi in randori afterall from time to time
- not to train to harm, but to investigate and observe how we can maintain posture, tai-sabaki, kumi-kata, kuzushi dealing with that kind of pressure...

To the average judoka judo is a close combat sport and in a self defence scenario close contact is to be avoided if possible unless one is on the attack or defending

Maybe this is the genial thing about judo. Because the close range is the most difficult to handle
during fighting, judo training is mostly in this range...? Maybe we think about maximizing the benefit from this fact?
I think there is no law, that the situation have to be as it is ("Most judoka don't learn atemi waza"), that could not be the
argument...

Its very complex.

Indeed.

Thanks for going back to original intended topic.



@sodo: It would be very kind, if you could refrain from disturbing the discussion again and again. I take this thread from then ne-waza thread
according the wish of "hanon", i tried to formulate an understandable headline and no after some "clarifications" between "hanon" an me we are
going back to the topic hopefully - to please don't hesitate to shut up and stay away from this thread if you feel the topic is behind your
horizon - its not wrong with that, but i'm afraid, this thread is not the right place for discussion for you...

That gif of a smiley repeatedly headbutting a brick wall seems like it may be somewhat appropriate at this point.

HI Fritz,

@sodo: It would be very kind, if you could refrain from disturbing the discussion again and again. I take this thread from then ne-waza thread

******This line has been edited out by me (sodo) to prevent hanon from having a heart attack Very Happy ****

according the wish of "hanon", i tried to formulate an understandable headline and no after some "clarifications" between "hanon" an me we are
going back to the topic hopefully - to please don't hesitate to shut up and stay away from this thread if you feel the topic is behind your horizon - its not wrong with that, but i'm afraid, this thread is not the right place for discussion for you...

Most of the posters here can follow my logic and find that I am answering the questions that arise in the correct manner, The point has been proven to all that have read this thread with the exception of yourself and the rest of your group.

My previous post was a correct answer to the points that you were trying to make, if you do not have an answer that is fine, it does not surprise me but hey,

When I see blatent misinformation being bandied around I will not be ignoring it and when it comes to bending the truth, twisting arguments and misquoting or quoting out of contrext and dodging qualified arguments (such as Wolfgangs) as you have been doing then I definitely will not be keeping quiet and I think anybody that knows me would be surprised shocked if I did

Your comment

Thats right, but to question is how we do that...
We can do throwing down and rolling "cool" over Uke and landing at the end below him - according to current rule interpretation a very fine, spectacular looking thing

really does show that you have a very strange understanding of judo


atb

sodo

Quicksilver wrote:That gif of a smiley repeatedly headbutting a brick wall seems like it may be somewhat appropriate at this point.

izt was VERY appropriate, what happened to it?

atb

sodo

sodo wrote:

izt was VERY appropriate, what happened to it?

atb

sodo

There is this

,

from here.

Quicksilver wrote:

sodo wrote:

izt was VERY appropriate, what happened to it?

atb

sodo

There is this

,

from here.

atb

sodo

Fritz wrote:

Hanon wrote:It is a wise action in judo to follow down into ne waza. I was taught to do this after some months. Throw and follow down. Even of the ref shouts ippon, tori should still be in control of uke.

Thats right, but to question is how we do that...
We can do throwing down and rolling "cool" over Uke and landing at the end below him - according to current rule interpretation a very fine, spectacular looking thing
or we can try to obtain a control position after the throw, a position, from where we can stand up very quickly, Uke may not grasp our
legs to prevent this.

Part of the clarification is a historic difference in teaching judo between Japanese and Western judo dojo. In many of the serious Japanese dojo I have visited (I mean dojo were I never saw any other Westerner) it has been quite common to continue randori tachi-waza into newaza. The reason for the strict separation of tachi- and newaza randori in the West is the size of the dojo. The tatami of the police academy in Japan where I trained was over 70 meters long. The tatami of most of the dojo I was a member of the in the West were about 10 m long, and often narrower than 10 m. Point is that in Japan, even though there are often many more people on the tatami, you could relatively safely continue tachi-waza randori into newaza, whereas with the much smaller dojo in the West such was commonly considered very unsafe and discouraged by the sensei. It is no coincidence that most of the Japanese superchampions like Okano, Kimura, Kashiwazaki, Yamashita excelled by have absolutely superior tachi to newaza transitioning skills, something that ... remarkably also Geesink had likely obtained from Michigami-sensei and from his training at Tenri Dai.

fritz, you just snipped the one sentence that made you sound correct, out of a long post detailing why you're wrong, and then ran with it. sodo pointed out that you're wrong, and you got all upset about it.

I am going to summarize what one should take from this thread (something that some of you refuse to take from this thread). and that summary is: one can use judo to practice self defense, but one can also do judo without any regard for practicing for self defense. if one chooses to take things out of context, they can find all sorts of quotes from historical figures to support any position they choose to hold, and do so comfortably, as long as they ignore the protests of those around them. if one chooses to look at judo as a style of self defense (and practice it by doing things not commonly found in judo but still call it judo for some strange reason) they are entitled to do so. but they are not entitled to tell those of us who do judo for it's own sake that we're doing it wrong on the grounds that what we're doing is different from what they the minority think should be done. much less because what we're doing doesn't have the same goals as what they're doing.

also Mike, sodo lives in Germany, I think that was an attempt at humor.

Fritz wrote:

Hanon wrote:It is a wise action in judo to follow down into ne waza. I was taught to do this after some months. Throw and follow down. Even of the ref shouts ippon, tori should still be in control of uke.

Thats right, but to question is how we do that...
We can do throwing down and rolling "cool" over Uke and landing at the end below him - according to current rule interpretation a very fine, spectacular looking thing
or we can try to obtain a control position after the throw, a position, from where we can stand up very quickly, Uke may not grasp our
legs to prevent this.

Well I cant think of one? No average street attacker will approach you and take hold of you by the lapel and arm. Close proximity in a street fight means you are in range of kicks, knees, elbows, hands, head, etc. To this end in terms of todays judo as soon as hajime is called is not about self defence at all.

Maybe that should lead us to think a little bit about Kumi-Kata and maintaining distance
regarding the attacking range of the opponent and ours. Maybe under this viewpoint this close fancy cross grip is not the first choose, maybe
hooking an arm around the neck of Uke is not so clever too? Maybe the controlling via standard kumi kata, keeping the head not to near to the
oppenent is the best at this fighting range. Maybe - if such thoughts would be in the minds of the judo practitioners -
there were no necessity for this detailed special competition rules regarding where and how to grip?

Self defence is practiced wearing average clothing. No judogi at all. That factor alone would cause most judoka a problem in trying to use judo as an effective SD. Most judoka don't learn atemi waza either so throws, arm locks and strangles are their only weapons.

Yes, but look at the kata. I was told preferably not to grasp the fabric doing nage-no-kata. So here we can learn to throw without the need to have
stable sleeves. The intersting point is how to transfer the knowledge learned by the kata into remaining practice...
Maybe it not wrong, to put the jackets off from time to time and then do randori.
At this background of your considerations, maybe its very insightful to do some atemi in randori afterall from time to time
- not to train to harm, but to investigate and observe how we can maintain posture, tai-sabaki, kumi-kata, kuzushi dealing with that kind of pressure...

To the average judoka judo is a close combat sport and in a self defence scenario close contact is to be avoided if possible unless one is on the attack or defending

Maybe this is the genial thing about judo. Because the close range is the most difficult to handle
during fighting, judo training is mostly in this range...? Maybe we think about maximizing the benefit from this fact?
I think there is no law, that the situation have to be as it is ("Most judoka don't learn atemi waza"), that could not be the
argument...

Its very complex.

Indeed.

Thanks for going back to original intended topic.



@sodo: It would be very kind, if you could refrain from disturbing the discussion again and again. I take this thread from then ne-waza thread
according the wish of "hanon", i tried to formulate an understandable headline and no after some "clarifications" between "hanon" an me we are
going back to the topic hopefully - to please don't hesitate to shut up and stay away from this thread if you feel the topic is behind your
horizon - its not wrong with that, but i'm afraid, this thread is not the right place for discussion for you...

Hi Fritz,

My lineage in judo is not directly from the kodokan biut the old original pre WW11 DNBK. MY senssei and those who taught me my judo where from that association. All three of those sensei didn't care too much for the kodokan nor those who, at that time, ran it.
To my sensei budo was a way of life, as much physically as psychologically. All of them had multiple dan ranks and other ranks in budo and bugei. The spirit they practiced judo and their other related arts and forms was different to that of their more modern kodoakn counterparts. Goshin jutsu was no stranger to any of them and all where very capable of looking after themselves should the need arise. I repeat these where men of an era long gone and never to be seen again.

Dax Sensei has outlined in a very clear and concise manner the way the kodokan developed over time. One cannot realy write that what we see or train today is related in any way, form nor shape to a self defence. proof of this lies in the fact Judo is an Olympic sport. May I add I dislike this as much as you may BUT its a fact and because we may have reservations about todays judo will not alter facts.

How many Judo dojo do you know who teach kata...teach atemi...bother with ne waza...teach judo in a class on times as a self defence? Judo has changed drastically from what it was at the death of its founder. Today judo is practiced in gyms with mats and people wear judo suits and they bring bottles of drink into the gym and walk around the gym in either bare feet or with trainers on. The idea of the rei is going out of fashion as well, people end then shake hands and hug or whatever? Its all absurd but its what judo is today in the world wide majority of clubs. Judo is nothing more and nothing less than a sport and to that end I will again write judo today is not even close to being of use as self defence. We have to accept its 2013 and not 1899.

Best wishes to you and yours Fritz,

Mike