Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

Josef_Z wrote:Hello,
I am a student of Tom Herold.
As a reader-only in this forum, I was shocked to a certain amount, how often certain things here are claimed and in no way proofen or even underlined by citations...
Now, this and the general tone of some users here (not all and everybody!) made me a little bit sad, because previously I thougt of the American Judo Forum as a place of quality discussion and exchange of valuable information regarding the topic of Judo.
As this may be true in some aspects/topics, in others i see a verry... poor... "argumentation".
It seems to me, that some people don't want to discuss - they just want to 'prove' their point of view - regardless of any evidence.
This is kind of sad.

Hanon wrote:A pair can 'randori' using atemi only or a mixture PROVIDING the pair understand the rules and are supervised. I have not seen either practiced in well over 30 years not even in my dojo. The risks of injury are too great for the general insurance companies federations of judoka today.

Dear Mr. Hanon, you are kidding us, aren't you?

Hanon wrote:
The nage no kata is a motion story book on how a tori overcomes an ever attacking EVER LEARNING THUS ADAPTING uke.
The atemi in the nage no kata are utilised to keep the story line progressing and to demonstrate a principle. Every atemi made differs from the one previously tried and failed.
For the optimum learning experience and to be of true value uke must attack tori with true gusto and a determination to strike home. Of course when learning the attacks and defences one begins slowly then progresses to a full, hard, fast, real attack.

In reality no attacker would attack using such an atemi and this is NOT the point. The point is to be found in the principle that being to demonstrate and practice the rational of attack-non resistence or simply put tori does not oppose a force with another force but uses the force of his uke against his uke thus in reality uke is seen to defeat himself.

Thats very interesting... There are atemi in the "randori-no-Kata"?
Why?- you said in randori as you know and practise there should not be atemi - under no circumstances,
whats is the reason, that they occur in the "randori-no-kata"?

Nage no Kata is not just the "textbook" forms of the throws but a description of the principles that are applied in deflecting and guiding the forces of the attacker, It is far easier to demonstrate these principles if the movements and forces are maximised.

I am a student of Tom Herold.

As a reader-only in this forum, I was shocked to a certain amount, how often certain things here are claimed and in no way proofen or even underlined by citations...

Now, this and the general tone of some users here (not all and everybody!) made me a little bit sad,

because previously I thougt of the American Judo Forum as a place of quality discussion and exchange of valuable information regarding the topic of Judo.
As this may be true in some aspects/topics, in others i see a verry... poor... "argumentation".

It seems to me, that some people don't want to discuss - they just want to 'prove' their point of view - regardless of any evidence.

Hanon wrote:A pair can 'randori' using atemi only or a mixture PROVIDING the pair understand the rules and are supervised. I have not seen either practiced in well over 30 years not even in my dojo.

The risks of injury are too great for the general insurance companies federations of judoka today.

sodo wrote:Why do you and the other followers of Tom Herold insist oon repeating the same stupid questions when they have already been answered many times. What Tom is teaching is not judo, it is a LARPing club, it is not recognised by the DJB and not even by the DKK are embarrassed, and that takes some doing

sodo wrote:Do you call olyimpic judo, judo, you really are naive aren't you Very Happy
This was discussed several times on the old forum, Olympic and IJF judo is just business, money and has as much to do with judo as club cycling has to do with the "Tour de France

Yes its true i know Tom by seminars and clinics provided by Frank Thiele.
Frank Thiele was long years responsible in Hessen/Germany for teaching judo and preparing judoka for dan exams.
More living judo history is hard to find in Germany...

I'm wondering why "DJB recognition" is now a point for you - DJB is providing olympic judo in last instance...
What did you say here in this thread?

sodo wrote:This all falls under the generally widespread term of TROLLING.

Fritz wrote:

sodo wrote:This all falls under the generally widespread term of TROLLING.

Yes, but i did not want to say it so openly...
... your insight is the first step...

Is that the same Frank Thiele that had his 9th Dan recinded because of "blattent over grading", DKK's words not mine silent

The DJB is as you should know the NGB for Judo in Germany, ONE of the things they are responsible for is the German Olympic team and Elite judo, the are also responsible for judo as "Breitensport" ie. recreational judo, school judo, and the general promotion of judo and the upkeep of grading syllabi, grading standards and records of officially recognised gradings.
It is I believe the grading standards where Herr Thiele und Tom fell foul No

The Bullshit That I keep refering to is the incessant nitpicking on selective parts of posts and avoidance of real discussion on legitimate answers.

sodo wrote:I notice you avoided the question:

Is that the same Frank Thiele that had his 9th Dan recinded because of "blattent over grading", DKK's words not mine silent

sodo wrote: and you made no acknowledgement to

The DJB is as you should know the NGB for Judo in Germany, ONE of the things they are responsible for is the German Olympic team and Elite judo, the are also responsible for judo as "Breitensport" ie. recreational judo, school judo, and the general promotion of judo and the upkeep of grading syllabi, grading standards and records of officially recognised gradings.
It is I believe the grading standards where Herr Thiele und Tom fell foul No

sodo wrote:Funny that my previous post was answered within 7 minutes, what makes my last one so hard to answer

Yes i avoided an answer, simple by the fact i did not understand you sentence.
If i would guess, then i think you wanted to say "blatant" and "DDK" - the "Deutsche Dan Kollegium"
which produced the first German Judo Judan in person of its current president D. Teige -
the DDK which lost its "recognition" by the German Judo assoziation (DJB), okay...

sodo wrote: and you made no acknowledgement to

The DJB is as you should know the NGB for Judo in Germany, ONE of the things they are responsible for is the German Olympic team and Elite judo, the are also responsible for judo as "Breitensport" ie. recreational judo, school judo, and the general promotion of judo and the upkeep of grading syllabi, grading standards and records of officially recognised gradings.
It is I believe the grading standards where Herr Thiele und Tom fell foul No

sodo wrote:Funny that my previous post was answered within 7 minutes, what makes my last one so hard to answer

初段：勝負・運動・体育・勇・行
中段：明察・到知・智育・智・断
上段：練心・正心・徳育・仁・得

Beginner: competition/fighting -> training -> physical education/growth -> courage -> filial piety
Middle: Insight -> "arriving at knowledge" -> "intellectual education/growth" -> wisdom -> judgment
Upper: "refinement of the spirit" -> "proper/just spirit" -> "moral education/growth" -> benevolence -> obtainment

cuivien wrote:I'm going to make one last attempt here based on a primary source. Accuse me of selective quoting or whatever, but at least I'm making an effort of getting back to topic.

1902, Uchida Ryôhei. Now, a lot of things can be said about this book, and a lot has already been said, but it is still one of, or the earliest, jûdô book in existence. I'm not going to regurgitate the discussions brought about by the various topics herein, (1) because people are probably not interested; (2) because you need a pretty firm knowledge of both religious and ideological discourse to partake; and (3) because frankly I'm getting tired of reading this debate.

Under the topic of 柔道修業の階級 "the levels of jûdô training" (pp.78-84) he postulates three levels roughly equivalent to lower, middle, and upper, and that progression in these goes as follows:

初段：勝負・運動・体育・勇・行
中段：明察・到知・智育・智・断
上段：練心・正心・徳育・仁・得

Translation:

Beginner: competition/fighting -> training -> physical education/growth -> courage -> filial piety
Middle: Insight -> "arriving at knowledge" -> "intellectual education/growth" -> wisdom -> judgment
Upper: "refinement of the spirit" -> "proper/just spirit" -> "moral education/growth" -> benevolence -> obtainment

Now then, even if we accept the fact that shôbu, which is commonly translated as "competition" or "fight" is at the beginning (i.e. a fundamental skill), there are 14 sub-levels above this. Taking the lower one, I think (yes, I write "think". This is seriously old stuff, and he writes in pretty difficult Japanese) what Uchida is saying is that shôbu teaches more generally which movements works and which do not, then understanding about effective movement teaches you more about physical education, which in turn turns into courage or uplifted spirits, which finally turns into filial piety. Thus "fighting" is something you're supposed to "graduate" from eventually.

genetic judoka wrote:this thread is getting exceedingly tiresome. if you have something really important to add do it soon as it may get closed soon.

Fritz wrote:Thanks Jon_Z for your last very informative postings.

At least you say, Kano had to make compromises to put Judo into schools...
Well - today we have some kinds of sport in the schools too, but its already accepted thats there are "school version"
of the sport, the rules can differ, the "training" of course too...
The same in ordinary school subjects - no one believes, that the "mathematic" at school is all to known about mathematic...

And how to explain in this context is the role of the Butokukai?

ThePieman wrote:By the way, a superb post again Jon Z!

Thanks for your time.

Jon Z wrote:Cuivien,

Just a quick note. Uchida Ryōhei is actually exactly the wrong person to quote in making this argument. He was all about the martial application of jūdō and writes about this in the book. At one point early on (sorry it’s been a couple of years since I read it so I don’t remember exactly when) he actually argues that jūjutsu in the Edo period was basically totally unrealistic and he wanted to instill real combat techniques into jūdō to make it effective on the battlefield. Just read the preface (after Kanō’s) about the guy wandering alone across Manchuria or read about some of Uchida’s adventures in Korea. BTW, at one point Saigō Shirō (well after he left the KDK) was supposed to go over to Manchuria with a paramilitary group affiliated with the Kokuryūkai. As best I can understand the documents, I think he didn’t end up going but I’ve never really figured out the puzzle.

Also, if you want to understand what Uchida means by shōbu, take a look at his shōbu no kata at the end of the book. It's got lot of striking and breaking little bits of your opponent (and yes, Uchida's talking about opponents, not partners)

Jon Z

but even he acknowledges the fact that there's more to the art than just fighting