NYCNewbie wrote:Are any of these actually Ura Nage? Because these look like what I do as well.
Here is some of what I know about Ura-Nage:
As it is a "Nage" it requires you to "throw" or "project" your opponent away from your body.
For it to be ura-nage you must throw in the direction of "Ura", aka the "Rear".
None of the Tori in that video extend an arm in order to facilitate a projection, opting only to cling tightly to their opponents. None of the Tori in the video seem to throw to their rear either, merely twisting. Maybe I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing but me thinks that none of them were uranage...
Can you tell me what you would label those throws as being?
NYCNewbie wrote:Are any of these actually Ura Nage? Because these look like what I do as well.
Here is some of what I know about Ura-Nage:
As it is a "Nage" it requires you to "throw" or "project" your opponent away from your body.
For it to be ura-nage you must throw in the direction of "Ura", aka the "Rear".
None of the Tori in that video extend an arm in order to facilitate a projection, opting only to cling tightly to their opponents. None of the Tori in the video seem to throw to their rear either, merely twisting. Maybe I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing but me thinks that none of them were uranage...
Can you tell me what you would label those throws as being?
Not with any degree of confidence lol
I just find it odd that the ONE throw that I do- and semi-consistently- is all but un-nameable. It's not like it's a rare throw- I've provided four examples of it in action on video for all to see. Yet KNOW ONE KNOWS WHAT IT IS!!!
It seems to me such a natural throw- guy comes in with Uchimata, it fails, I take him up and back the other way, twisting in the air so that we land next to each other with me facing the mat and Uke facing the sky, my right arm adding the final slamming "Oooomph" (the "power and control") to the throw. I seriously suck at Judo but I hit this enough times that I started thinking "what IS that throw that I do" (since it's THE ONLY THROW I DO)? And I found it- it's right there, on tape- yet it's kind of uncategorizable!
"a henka of daki-wakare performed in standing position"
Really? Man- that ain't in the gokyo! Why do I have to be different?!? I want a normal throw!
Anyway- thanks guys (especially CK) for all the help. I appreciate it!
NYCNewbie wrote:Are any of these actually Ura Nage? Because these look like what I do as well.
The first technique has sufficient characteristics of ura-nage to term it that way. There is a clear attempt to throw behind one's back. The second technique is clearly not ura-nage but standing daki-wakare, whereas the third technique is closest to what you do. However, it could also be considered just daki-wakare, but not just ura-nage; the problem there is situated in that stopping moment that occurs just before 00'33"; is that really a stopping moment where the second throw starts or is it a ken-ken moment. As such, one could argue whether it is a ken-ken daki-wakare or renzoku-waza ura-nage + daki-wakare. I would suggest to keep that one too on daki-wakare. The difference may be hard to decide without feeling the technique. As said though, most people will generally term all of them ura-nage but that is largely because of the unfamiliarity with daki-wakare as a name referring to while performed with both players standing. Even though all three techniques may look similar, they are not the same, and that has to do with control as well as uke's reaction, and weight distribtution prompting tori to go for the most effective solution.
NYCNewbie wrote:Are any of these actually Ura Nage? Because these look like what I do as well.
The first technique has sufficient characteristics of ura-nage to term it that way. There is a clear attempt to throw behind one's back. The second technique is clearly not ura-nage but standing daki-wakare, whereas the third technique is closest to what you do. However, it could also be considered just daki-wakare, but not just ura-nage; the problem there is situated in that stopping moment that occurs just before 00'33"; is that really a stopping moment where the second throw starts or is it a ken-ken moment. As such, one could argue whether it is a ken-ken daki-wakare or renzoku-waza ura-nage + daki-wakare. I would suggest to keep that one too on daki-wakare. The difference may be hard to decide without feeling the technique. As said though, most people will generally term all of them ura-nage but that is largely because of the unfamiliarity with daki-wakare as a name referring to while performed with both players standing. Even though all three techniques may look similar, they are not the same, and that has to do with control as well as uke's reaction, and weight distribtution prompting tori to go for the most effective solution.
I appreciate all this.
One thing I can describe- my feeling at least- is that there is this push vs. pull dynamic as Uke and I are engaged. He is actively trying to take me forward, I am actively trying to take him backwards. He's initiated the action (meaning: I didn't set out to take him backwards, whereas he did set out to take me forwards), but now, regardless of the originator, we are in a forwards vs. backwards war, and I am now 100% committed to trying to throw him to the rear. This back and forth tussle can sometimes be over in a nanosecond (he tries for Uchimata and then *BANG!- I rapidly reverse our course and twist-and-slam him down to the mat), or sometimes it can take a bit of time (he and I will be in a kind of bodily tug of war so to speak, one that'll last 2-3 seconds before I will eventually "win," taking him down as described). Regardless of whether it happens instantaneously or takes some time, there is always a "pause"- a moment when the action shifts and we're now no longer going forwards, we're going the other way. This is a sweet feeling for me because that's when I know for 100% certain that Uke is going down!
Of the three "Ura Nages" in the compilation video, the first one is the most familiar to me- simply because it's the exact situation I find myself in: righty v. righty, Uke misses w/Uchimata, Tori counters with a twisting-slamming throw to the rear. I guess his would be Ura Nage because it's a "bigger" action towards the sky? Because I have to say that this actually looks very similar to what I feel I do, except of course it looks ten times better- more dynamic, more beautiful, more airtime for Uke- than what I do. I keep watching it and I don't really see Tori trying to "throw Uke skywards towards the rear (meaning: up and over his head, as with the classical/canonical Ura Nage of the Nage No Kata) as much as I see him simply twisting and turning with Uke in midair as one unit, just like me. As such, that first one doesn't appear to me to be Ura Nage either- if Ura Nage by definition involves an attempt to hoist Uke up and over Tori's head skywards towards the rear.
Now obviously you've forgotten more about Judo than I'll ever know- so it's not like I'm telling you you're wrong- I just see it slightly differently. To me, none of those three throws are Ura Nage- but whatever they are, all three of them are pretty much what I do.
Should the name of that video be changed to "standing Daki Wakare?"
One thing I can describe- my feeling at least- is that there is this push vs. pull dynamic as Uke and I are engaged. He is actively trying to take me forward, I am actively trying to take him backwards. He's initiated the action (meaning: I didn't set out to take him backwards, whereas he did set out to take me forwards), but now, regardless of the originator, we are in a forwards vs. backwards war, and I am now 100% committed to trying to throw him to the rear. This back and forth tussle can sometimes be over in a nanosecond (he tries for Uchimata and then *BANG!- I rapidly reverse our course and twist-and-slam him down to the mat), or sometimes it can take a bit of time (he and I will be in a kind of bodily tug of war so to speak, one that'll last 2-3 seconds before I will eventually "win," taking him down as described). Regardless of whether it happens instantaneously or takes some time, there is always a "pause"- a moment when the action shifts and we're now no longer going forwards, we're going the other way. This is a sweet feeling for me because that's when I know for 100% certain that Uke is going down!
Of the three "Ura Nages" in the compilation video, the first one is the most familiar to me- simply because it's the exact situation I find myself in: righty v. righty, Uke misses w/Uchimata, Tori counters with a twisting-slamming throw to the rear. I guess his would be Ura Nage because it's a "bigger" action towards the sky? Because I have to say that this actually looks very similar to what I feel I do, except of course it looks ten times better- more dynamic, more beautiful, more airtime for Uke- than what I do. I keep watching it and I don't really see Tori trying to "throw Uke skywards towards the rear (meaning: up and over his head, as with the classical/canonical Ura Nage of the Nage No Kata) as much as I see him simply twisting and turning with Uke in midair as one unit, just like me. As such, that first one doesn't appear to me to be Ura Nage either- if Ura Nage by definition involves an attempt to hoist Uke up and over Tori's head skywards towards the rear.
Now obviously you've forgotten more about Judo than I'll ever know- so it's not like I'm telling you you're wrong- I just see it slightly differently. To me, none of those three throws are Ura Nage- but whatever they are, all three of them are pretty much what I do.
Should the name of that video be changed to "standing Daki Wakare?"
Indeed, you describe it very well in your first paragraph. Additionally, what the audience sees is not always what happens. A classical example is ashi-guruma. You attempt this throw with a clear pushing action from out of the hara, the other person moves, there is movement, lots of dynamic, and everyone who sees the video will see harai-goshi. You can't always derive from the visual aspect what really happened. When one consciously does both throws, ashi-guruma is quite different, but in shiai, there are cases where those differences isn't always visual and it is not possible with certainty to decide which of both throws it actually was, at least not immediately. Sometimes further analysis may yield the answer, such as for example, when the player knows or states he does not know how to perform ashi-guruma, but has harai-goshi as a tokui-waza. In that case, chances are likely it was indeed harai-goshi rather than ashi-guruma.
Intention by itself is not sufficient. You can have all intention to do ura-nage, but the gap in realizing that intention may be so large that the throw cannot possibly be qualified as ura-nage.
Another example. Morote-gari by 1975 was a near completely forgotten throw. No one did it. The throw was done by grabbing both legs of the opponent and pulling a leg towards each side. Then came Van De Walle who made this into a tokui-waza. He pulled both legs to one side, and started lifting up the opponent much higher. Sometimes the throw turned into a sutemi, sometimes the person was thrown behind him. At that point the throw was no longer morote-gari but became ura-nage, despite the clear differences with the canoical form of ura-nage. At the most one could also term it a renraku-waza morote-gari + ura-nage. However, when the intent was to grab the opponent like that and directly throw behind irrespective of whether he reacted or not, then it wasn't really a renraku-waza, but ura-nage.
Ura-nage does not require throwing over the head, as you indicate. The intent is to throw behind you, that's all. In the first throw, the opponent is lifted full off the ground with the attempt being directed to throw behind. It's different from the two other cases.
Two things. First, when I do the throw, my intention is definitely to throw Uke behind me; I lift up (an inch or two lol), arch back, thrust upwards and spin, in the process throwing Uke back, down, and behind. Second, it's difficult for me to see how, in that "Ura Nage" video, only Tori # 1 is actually "throwing behind" when all three of them appear to be doing that- only with Tori # 1 doing it with more verve.
I suppose the "more verve" that I'm seeing displays my own lack of nuance and that in actuality I'm missing something?
All that appears different to me is that Tori # 1 gets more height on his toss; all three of them appear to be going for- and accomplishing- the exact same thing.
NYCNewbie wrote:Two things. First, when I do the throw, my intention is definitely to throw Uke behind me; I lift up (an inch or two lol), arch back, thrust upwards and spin, in the process throwing Uke back, down, and behind. Second, it's difficult for me to see how, in that "Ura Nage" video, only Tori # 1 is actually "throwing behind" when all three of them appear to be doing that- only with Tori # 1 doing it with more verve.
I suppose the "more verve" that I'm seeing displays my own lack of nuance and that in actuality I'm missing something?
All that appears different to me is that Tori # 1 gets more height on his toss; all three of them appear to be going for- and accomplishing- the exact same thing.
And that is precisely how we make it to renraku-waza, an intent that fails, and we continue in another way, often smoothly without interruption.
NYCNewbie wrote:Two things. First, when I do the throw, my intention is definitely to throw Uke behind me; I lift up (an inch or two lol), arch back, thrust upwards and spin, in the process throwing Uke back, down, and behind. Second, it's difficult for me to see how, in that "Ura Nage" video, only Tori # 1 is actually "throwing behind" when all three of them appear to be doing that- only with Tori # 1 doing it with more verve.
I suppose the "more verve" that I'm seeing displays my own lack of nuance and that in actuality I'm missing something?
All that appears different to me is that Tori # 1 gets more height on his toss; all three of them appear to be going for- and accomplishing- the exact same thing.
And that is precisely how we make it to renraku-waza, an intent that fails, and we continue in another way, often smoothly without interruption.
So, you are saying that example #1 started as Ura-nage (Tori does bridge...) but finishes as something else. Is that something else "a henka of daki-wakare performed in standing position"?
NYCNewbie wrote:Two things. First, when I do the throw, my intention is definitely to throw Uke behind me; I lift up (an inch or two lol), arch back, thrust upwards and spin, in the process throwing Uke back, down, and behind. Second, it's difficult for me to see how, in that "Ura Nage" video, only Tori # 1 is actually "throwing behind" when all three of them appear to be doing that- only with Tori # 1 doing it with more verve.
I suppose the "more verve" that I'm seeing displays my own lack of nuance and that in actuality I'm missing something?
All that appears different to me is that Tori # 1 gets more height on his toss; all three of them appear to be going for- and accomplishing- the exact same thing.
And that is precisely how we make it to renraku-waza, an intent that fails, and we continue in another way, often smoothly without interruption.
So, you are saying that example #1 started as Ura-nage (Tori does bridge...) but finishes as something else. Is that something else "a henka of daki-wakare performed in standing position"?
I have said that the first throw of the three in the last videoclip has sufficient characteristics of ura-nage to be regarded as ura-nage, while the second and third throw do not, especially the second one not; the second IS daki-wakare, and the third is or ends in daki-wakare.
Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
I would never dare to lecture you... Just looking out for that learner who might just think you are correct in the advice you like to give on this Judo forum.
The question was do you actually practice Judo?
The next question is, is English your first language? That might answer why you come across as a petulant child .
Your questions are both ridiculous, medo. Leave the pretense that you are looking out for somebody by arguing on the Internet. This is your pasttime. If I did not practice judo I would not have been able to identify the throw... since I was thrown by a similar technique. English is not my first language, but you obviously cannot tell the difference. Thanks for asking, though.
I would never dare to lecture you... Just looking out for that learner who might just think you are correct in the advice you like to give on this Judo forum.
The question was do you actually practice Judo?
The next question is, is English your first language? That might answer why you come across as a petulant child .
Your questions are both ridiculous, medo. Leave the pretense that you are looking out for somebody by arguing on the Internet. This is your pasttime. If I did not practice judo I would not have been able to identify the throw... since I was thrown by a similar technique. English is not my first language, but you obviously cannot tell the difference. Thanks for asking, though.
Oh dear... problem being even this retired old decrepit Judoka who should obviously now be put out of his misery and shot, cannot understand why your so keen to give advice which anyone with at least a few years experience knows is wrong. Stick with the BJJ thread that's possibly where your advice would be most welcome and those with more senior years would give you the respect YOU deserve.
Last edited by medo on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
Lol, medo, I'm better at newaza than at tachiwaza, that doesn't mean I'm easy to throw or that I can't identify a throw Besides, my learning rate is pretty impressive, so this information may be outdated soon.
P.S. I've not given any advice in this thread.
Last edited by Wandering WB on Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:38 am; edited 1 time in total
Wandering WB wrote:Lol, medo, I'm better at newaza than at tachiwaza, that doesn't mean I'm easy to throw or that I can't identify a throw Besides, my learning rate is pretty impressive, so this information may be outdated soon.
Haven't met anybody who toots his own horn as much as I do- is that what I sound like?
WHAT THROW IS THIS?!!! topics all seem to end unproductively. While I do harp on people for not knowing how to name things, in the practical sense you've (OP) clearly been taught well since you can intuitively use something that looks like judo to us and feels like judo to you. Before this topic descends into more chaos it may be advisable to fold and say that it technically be many things depending on who you're asking. To enhance the way that you use this technique, it might be helpful to break it down into its component elements. Which part of your body do you feel drives the lift? The rotation of uke onto his back? Or, even, if you were teach this throw to somebody, how would you go about doing it?
Wandering WB wrote:Lol, medo, I'm better at newaza than at tachiwaza, that doesn't mean I'm easy to throw or that I can't identify a throw Besides, my learning rate is pretty impressive, so this information may be outdated soon.
A mix of Ura Nage assisted by a pseudo Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi.
That was your stab at answering the OP. Anyone with a few years of physically practicing Judo at a reasonable level would smile sweetly and tap you on the head with that reply.
If you learn Judo of the internet only practice at club level never testing your developing skills at regional/national/international level and give advice on forums, then I would suggest you are a "pseudo Judoka"
I look forward to hearing when you achieve you Dan grade and perhaps your skill level gets you into a national squad that would be a good gauge of your learning rate, otherwise as you suggest "Pseudo".
Haven't met anybody who toots his own horn as much as I do- is that what I sound like?
On the contrary, my club has a dozen white and blue belts with similar skill. When I got back to the gym after a two week vacation, I was struck by how serene and peaceful it has gotten in my absense, with a true atmosphere of camraderie and mutual respect. I had a conversation with my coach and the manager also hinted, that I should take it easy on myself and everyone for a while.
Medo
A mix of Ura Nage assisted by a pseudo Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi.
That was your stab at answering the OP. Anyone with a few years of physically practicing Judo at a reasonable level would smile sweetly and tap you on the head with that reply.
If you learn Judo of the internet only practice at club level never testing your developing skills at regional/national/international level and give advice on forums, then I would suggest you are a "pseudo Judoka" I look forward to hearing when you achieve you Dan grade and perhaps your skill level gets you into a national squad that would be a good gauge of your learning rate, otherwise as you suggest "Pseudo".
Oh no you don't. I am not quite that interested in competition to put the rest of my life on hold so I can chase medals for your enterteinment. My comment was right on the mark, get over it. Now are you worried that I can somehow uranage you over the web??? perhaps with some STKA action involved???
I look forward to hearing when you achieve you Dan grade
No. I intend to keep my white belt for as long as I train.
Haven't met anybody who toots his own horn as much as I do- is that what I sound like?
On the contrary, my club has a dozen white and blue belts with similar skill. When I got back to the gym after a two week vacation, I was struck by how serene and peaceful it has gotten in my absense, with a true atmosphere of camraderie and mutual respect. I had a conversation with my coach and the manager also hinted, that I should take it easy on myself and everyone for a while.
Medo
A mix of Ura Nage assisted by a pseudo Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi.
That was your stab at answering the OP. Anyone with a few years of physically practicing Judo at a reasonable level would smile sweetly and tap you on the head with that reply.
If you learn Judo of the internet only practice at club level never testing your developing skills at regional/national/international level and give advice on forums, then I would suggest you are a "pseudo Judoka" I look forward to hearing when you achieve you Dan grade and perhaps your skill level gets you into a national squad that would be a good gauge of your learning rate, otherwise as you suggest "Pseudo".
Oh no you don't. I am not quite that interested in competition to put the rest of my life on hold so I can chase medals for your enterteinment. My comment was right on the mark, get over it. Now are you worried that I can somehow uranage you over the web??? perhaps with some STKA action involved???
You need to read from post 14 if you still think there may be STKA in this throw.
I'm sure you will achieve all you want in this world your a young intelligent man with a big ego, good luck your going to need it....
Wandering WB wrote: Which part of your body do you feel drives the lift? The rotation of uke onto his back? Or, even, if you were teach this throw to somebody, how would you go about doing it?
I squat down and lift Uke up a couple of inches off the ground with a perpendicular "hug." I then throw my whole body up and back, dive-jumping to the rear over my left shoulder and then spin-twisting in the air so that I go from landing on my back to landing face down, all the while turning Uke slightly in midair to make sure he lands flat on his back. My right arm (on his lapel) adds the final "slam."
I hit this throw a fair amount, and it's always the same thing. It looks like Ura Nage to begin with, only Uke doesn't go "up and over,' he just goes "up (a little bit) and then back and down to the mat (together with me)."
Wandering WB wrote: Which part of your body do you feel drives the lift? The rotation of uke onto his back? Or, even, if you were teach this throw to somebody, how would you go about doing it?
I squat down and lift Uke up a couple of inches off the ground with a perpendicular "hug." I then throw my whole body up and back, dive-jumping to the rear over my left shoulder and then spin-twisting in the air so that I go from landing on my back to landing face down, all the while turning Uke slightly in midair to make sure he lands flat on his back. My right arm (on his lapel) adds the final "slam."
I hit this throw a fair amount, and it's always the same thing. It looks like Ura Nage to begin with, only Uke doesn't go "up and over,' he just goes "up (a little bit) and then back and down to the mat (together with me)."
Wandering WB wrote:Lol, medo, I'm better at newaza than at tachiwaza, that doesn't mean I'm easy to throw or that I can't identify a throw Besides, my learning rate is pretty impressive, so this information may be outdated soon.
Haven't met anybody who toots his own horn as much as I do- is that what I sound like?
WHAT THROW IS THIS?!!! topics all seem to end unproductively. While I do harp on people for not knowing how to name things, in the practical sense you've (OP) clearly been taught well since you can intuitively use something that looks like judo to us and feels like judo to you. Before this topic descends into more chaos it may be advisable to fold and say that it technically be many things depending on who you're asking. To enhance the way that you use this technique, it might be helpful to break it down into its component elements. Which part of your body do you feel drives the lift? The rotation of uke onto his back? Or, even, if you were teach this throw to somebody, how would you go about doing it?
Be creful kids most people I know that toot their horns have very little to toot about.
Be creful kids most people I know that toot their horns have very little to toot about.
They may however, have a pretty loud horn for everyone to hear. I have not been doing this for ten years, so I think I may improve still, in terms of proficiency.
I agree, although it's hard to see exactly what uke was doing beforehand. Looks like he may have turned a bit sideways to tori, possibly a forward throw attempt.
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